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Mother Child Homes Discussion ###DO NOT POST WITHOUT READING 1st POST###

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So why are you asking random strangers on the internet? You want answers and want it in public then go stand outside the Dail with a camera and ask those questions to the TD's as they arrive?

    This is a discussion forum, one you will not shut down, you can try to protect these politicans all you like, but they have many questions to answer, especially the ministers for health and county councils. Where is the prime minister, where is the president ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    Good, I will go, will the minsters for health and councils be there and why not ?

    You're scaring me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    This is a discussion forum, one you will not shut down, you can try to protect these politicans all you like, but they have many questions to answer, especially the ministers for health and county councils. Where is the prime minister, where is the president ?

    What politicians need protection though? Anyone involved in anything that went on would be long out of politics and be in their eighties if still alive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    You're scaring me.

    Hiding and protecting prime minister and ministers for health and county councils from any questions scare me a lot more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    This is a discussion forum, one you will not shut down, you can try to protect these politicans all you like, but they have many questions to answer, especially the ministers for health and county councils. Where is the prime minister, where is the president ?

    Excuse me?

    Where am i trying to protect any politicians? All i'm asking is why you expect everyone else to get these answers for you. Angry and lazy.....not nice colours.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Excuse me?

    Where am i trying to protect any politicians? All i'm asking is why you expect everyone else to get these answers for you. Angry and lazy.....not nice colours.

    Because other poster might be able to answer them, rather than trying to hide and protect them and divert from these questions.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    @Czarcasm

    Firstly, while I agree with your general point about the media's mishandling of this whole issue, I'd love to know what school you went to where they taught you all about the church's abuse of power and the people it held power over? I certainly was never taught any of this - although I was painfully aware of the abuse, given that in primary [in the 1980's] we were taught by an ex-christian brother who beat us every day we were in his class.

    And secondly, while all the investigations in the world won't bring back these children, nonetheless it is wrong to suggest that investigating will do no good. Again I have to stress that this is not all in the past. There are still people dealing with this today - people who don't have a birth cert, people who don't know who their parents are, people who don't know what happened their children - and it's well past time that these people were given the answers they deserve.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    The public deserve to know the answers in public, not private emails, why are these minsters for health and county councils being allowed to hide away ?

    Publish your replys


    Simply because they're hoping to brazen it out until it actually goes away, again, just like it has done every time it's brought up.

    If you bookmark this thread, and make a note in your calendar one year from now, I think you shouldn't be surprised at how the story has been forgotten about, just like every other publicity campaign that subsided soon afterwards - gets a mention here or there every so often, but nothing ever comes close to determining responsibility or accountability.

    For that, those in authority are relieved that those subservient to them have short memories and prefer to attack each other rather than form any kind of cohesive strategy that might put their authority at risk.


    TL;DR: Politicians, Church Leaders, Journalists, Historians, and the general public will sit on Pandora's Box before they'd ever allow it to be opened, and people will eventually move on, and all those responsible will breathe a collective sigh of relief.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Simply because they're hoping to brazen it out until it actually goes away, again, just like it has done every time it's brought up.

    If you bookmark this thread, and make a note in your calendar one year from now, I think you shouldn't be surprised at how the story has been forgotten about, just like every other publicity campaign that subsided soon afterwards - gets a mention here or there every so often, but nothing ever comes close to determining responsibility or accountability.

    For that, those in authority are relieved that those subservient to them have short memories and prefer to attack each other rather than form any kind of cohesive strategy that might put their authority at risk.


    TL;DR: Politicians, Church Leaders, Journalists, Historians, and the general public will sit on Pandora's Box before they'd ever allow it to be opened, and people will eventually move on, and all those responsible will breathe a collective sigh of relief.

    This is exactly what I am talking about, the minister for health and the minister for county councils got away with not having to answer any questions or speak about it. The Prime minister got away with saying next to nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    Why was the post that was inciting violence against anyone who prayed at the vigil deleted ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Ms Corlass herself says shes not sure whether its 800 babies 20 babies 200 babies or how many babies. Shes said she doesnt know wether it was in a septic tank, beside a septic tank, near a septic tank or nothing to do with a septic tank. She says she doesnt know if the babies were placed, flung , dumped or buried. She doesnt know because nobody knows. Yet. The Government have ordered an investigation to find out. But some people just heard:
    Babies
    800
    Septic tank
    Dumped
    nuns
    and they dived straight in head first, because, obviously, the media would NEVER exageratte or concoct a story just to sell papers, would they?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Why was the post that was inciting violence against anyone who prayed at the vigil deleted ?
    Because it was off topic and the user banned. Now, as pointed out in the OP of this thread, if you've a question about moderation ask a mod. Don't derail the thread again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Ms Corlass herself says shes not sure whether its 800 babies 20 babies 200 babies or how many babies. Shes said she doesnt know wether it was in a septic tank, beside a septic tank, near a septic tank or nothing to do with a septic tank. She says she doesnt know if the babies were placed, flung , dumped or buried. She doesnt know because nobody knows. Yet. The Government have ordered an investigation to find out. But some people just heard:
    Babies
    800
    Septic tank
    Dumped
    nuns
    and they dived straight in head first, because, obviously, the media would NEVER exageratte or concoct a story just to sell papers, would they?

    The Minster for Health and the Minister of County Councils (Dept. of Environment) have the records, they were handed over to the Council when the home closed in 1961.

    Why are they not being questioned by the media, why have they got away without any comment ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    The Prime minister got away with saying next to nothing.

    Our Taoiseach rarely speaks in public unless coached to do so. He did say this yesterday;

    The Taoiseach has described the treatment of women and children in mother-and-baby homes as "an abomination".
    Enda Kenny was speaking as the Government announced a Commission of Inquiry into conditions at the homes.
    "It's not an exaggeration to say their treatment in many cases, and that of their babies, was an abomination."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    Our Taoiseach rarely speaks in public unless coached to do so. He did say this yesterday;

    The Taoiseach has described the treatment of women and children in mother-and-baby homes as "an abomination".
    Enda Kenny was speaking as the Government announced a Commission of Inquiry into conditions at the homes.
    "It's not an exaggeration to say their treatment in many cases, and that of their babies, was an abomination."

    When are his minsters of health and county councils going to be asked any questions by the media ? They have had the homes records since it closed in 1961. Galway county council funded and administered this home, the council's health committee met regularly to discuss it when it was open. Yet no one is asking the health board or county council, or the ministers in question any questions. Also why are any nuns that are still alive that worked there not being tracked down and interviewed by the media. A lot of questions are being swept under the carpet here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    When are his minsters of health and county councils going to be asked any questions by the media ? They have had the homes records since it closed in 1961. Galway county council funded and administered this home, the council's health committee met regularly to discuss it when it was open. Yet no one is asking the health board or county council, or the ministers in question any questions. Also why are any nuns that are still alive that worked there not being tracked down and interviewed by the media. A lot of questions are being swept under the carpet here.

    What questions would you ask them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    What questions would you ask them?

    What are they doing about the records they have since 1961 ?

    Why did they do nothing about them ?

    Why did the members of Galway county council and the minister of the environment and health allow these homes to operate the way they did ?

    They requested the nuns to run the home, they funded them, and Galway county council health committee met regularly to discuss the funding and performance of the home.

    Also Galway county council is the authority responsible for burial ground permissions.

    I want to see the nuns that are still alive today answer the question why the children were malnourished ? How did they bury the children and where ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    The Minster for Health and the Minister of County Councils (Dept. of Environment) have the records, they were handed over to the Council when the home closed in 1961.

    Why are they not being questioned by the media, why have they got away without any comment ?
    Sure, I dont know. Id say its because shining a light on Ministers and County Councils is kind of boring and isnt half as dramatic as "NUNS SEPTIC TANKS DUMPED NUNS BABIES FLUNG SEPTIC TANK" etc and definitely wouldnt sell as many papers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Never mind the NYT - Birroc asked "She has come to the conclusion that those 800 babies are buried in an unmarked grave - do you think she is wrong in that fact?"
    As I said, the NYT article is a good statement of the present situation. It's nothing to do with what any one of us might want to assert, because we've no information.

    What you, me and the Old Tuam Society have in common is that none of us can answer that question. What we know, and what was known publically at the time, is that these homes had very high infant mortality rates.


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You have ignored most of my questions :

    Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

    Why is minister for health not speaking about this at all ?

    Why are older nuns not being interviewed by media ?

    Why is minister for environment not speaking about this at all ?

    Galway county council and other councils funded and administered these homes. Councillors met regularly to discuss homes and funding. Galway county council were given all the homes records in 1961 when it closed. HSE and County Council's have lots of questions to answer as well as nuns.

    I wasn't aware that I was to answer all your questions! The only answer I can give you is what I already posted. There has been an enquiry ordered. Hysterical over reaction will not help. Hopefully they will get to the bottom of it. I'm a great believer in living in the here and now, leaving the past where it belongs - in the past. We cannot change what happened. It was so long ago that it is doubtful that many responsible are alive.
    Finally, I sincerely hope that their souls are Resting In Peace.


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  • Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Brayden Colossal Chalkboard


    Some of RTÉ's Prime Time episodes regarding the Homes, Adoption Process and Medical Trials have been made available again
    http://www.rte.ie/player/gb/show/10291719/
    This programme uncovered the export of Irish children in Mother and Baby homes to adoptive parents in America. The programme talks to mothers whose children were taken from them, to the children who grew up in the US, and to nuns as well. First broadcast: 20/06/1996

    worth watching - in particular regarding the donations and request for money.

    At the same time, do bear in mind that the Nun in the video says that in their records they could find no mention of fees, and no receipts.
    http://www.rte.ie/player/gb/show/10291533/
    In the wake of recent events Prime Time rebroadcasts its 2011 award winning programme which uncovered the use of infants in Mother and Baby homes for medical research in the post war race to modify vaccines for polio, diphtheria, tetanus and measles. During the making of the programme the journalists also discovered that the remains of hundreds of infants who died in these homes had been sent for anatomical dissection, without parental consent, until the 1960s.
    Prime Time wrote:
    http://www.rte.ie/player/gb/show/10290343/
    Tuam mother and baby home and Medical Council complaints


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    burial ground has small gate and walls around it, and grass is being cut. Police should tape it off with white and blue tape and mark it crime scene.

    It is obvious that the locals have been treating the ground with respect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    ElizaT33 wrote: »
    These days in Ireland, you are 'paid' to be an unmarried mother - you receive a house, pram, benefits etc. What a turnaround ......! Perhaps these benefits are the result of huge embarrassment on the Government's part for the discovery of these atrocities ...!
    You "receive" a house? A pram?
    All types of people receive benefits, not just lone parents. Your demonisation of single mothers today while complaining about the demonisation of single (or "unmarried" as you say) mothers in the past is quite strange to say the least. You are not "paid" to be an "unmarried" mother.
    This is a discussion forum, one you will not shut down, you can try to protect these politicans all you like
    Not one person is protecting the politicians on this thread. Quit blaming people on this thread whom you are no different to, for the inactions of politicians.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    I wasn't aware that I was to answer all your questions! The only answer I can give you is what I already posted. There has been an enquiry ordered. Hysterical over reaction will not help.

    I'm a great believer in living in the here and now, leaving the past where it belongs - in the past.

    Asking for the minsters, the departments and the authorities, responsible for overseeing health, homes, and burial grounds for answers is not a "hysterical over reaction that will not help"

    Galway county council asked the nuns to run the home, Galway county council funded the home, and Galway county councils health committees overseen the home and its funding, and regularly met to discuss it. They have the minutes of all these meetings.

    Galway county council have had the home's records since 1961, when they were given to them when the home closed. Galway county council legislate burial grounds and certify deaths. They also granted planning permission for all the building and change of use in the area.

    The nuns that are still alive also need to clarify why the children were malnourished.

    You might believe in sweeping it all under the carpet, I do not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    As I said, the NYT article is a good statement of the present situation. It's nothing to do with what any one of us might want to assert, because we've no information.

    What you, me and the Old Tuam Society have in common is that none of us can answer that question. What we know, and what was known publically at the time, is that these homes had very high infant mortality rates.

    Birroc asked "She has come to the conclusion that those 800 babies are buried in an unmarked grave - do you think she is wrong in that fact?"

    So, consider the facts: We know 800 babies died. We know they are not buried in a marked grave.
    Hence we know they are buried in an unmarked grave somewhere.
    Do you agree with that much at least?

    The only alternatives are that (1) The 800 death certs were faked and they are still alive or (2) The bodies were burned and never buried.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Nobody is sweeping anything under the carpet - well some catholics are downplaying it all right, but not anyone else.


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Asking for the minsters, the departments and the authorities, responsible for overseeing health, homes, and burial grounds for answers is not a "hysterical over reaction that will not help"

    Galway county council asked the nuns to run the home, Galway county council funded the home, and Galway county councils health committees overseen the home and its funding, and regularly met to discuss it. They have the minutes of all these meetings.

    Galway county council have had the home's records since 1961, when they were given to them when the home closed. Galway county council legislate burial grounds and certify deaths. They also granted planning permission for all the building and change of use in the area.

    The nuns that are still alive also need to clarify why the children were malnourished.

    You might believe in sweeping it all under the carpet, I do not.

    As I've said before there IS an enquiry to be held. Hopefully THEY can answer your questions. I'm afraid I can't!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭Elektronske


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    It is obvious that the locals have been treating the ground with respect.

    If its the crime scene for an investigation, why has the graveyard not been cordoned off ?

    Also the developer and construction workers of the estate in the 70's/80's have a lot of questions to answer, what graves and remains did they find and did they bulldoze them into the old tank ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Everyone is quick to blame the Catholic Church and I'm not lessening what certain people within the church did. But are we also going to see an investigation into the pharmaceutical companies involved in drug testing or the families who put their daughters, sisters, aunts, cousins into these homes knowing what went on in them.
    Just heard on the news about trade unions campaigning at the time for the identities of adoptees being erased to save families the trauma of giving away a child. Are they going to be investigated too?


    From my reading of the situation the bodies in tuam were know about ages ago. Why is is now convenient to make an issue of them when it wasn't an issue before?

    In short - 'remains of dead babies found in septic tank' is an inflammatory phrase.
    Has a similar power to shock as does a headline such as - 'Woman refused abortion
    in Catholic hospital dies'.

    Certain words/phrases are guaranteed to inflame the public.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Birroc asked "She has come to the conclusion that those 800 babies are buried in an unmarked grave - do you think she is wrong in that fact?"
    I don't understand why you are repeating a point that has already been answered more than once. I don't understand why this is assuming such significance for you. There's lots of folk of all ages, even into quite recent times, buried in graves with no headstones, or in graves where their name isn't added to the gravestone. There's other folk buried in untraceable graves, that are simply unknown to their living relatives.

    I have no idea if the 800 certified deaths are all buried in one unmarked grave, or are buried in several locations, or anything else about their final resting place. As I said before, I know no more than you or the Old Tuam Society.

    It's a pointless question, not least because the conclusion isn't a fact. It's an interpretation of fact. Looking for people to support statements that they cannot possibly prove is politics, not discussion.


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