How bad are the Gardai and what do we do about it?

Dont call me Shirley · 07-06-2014 12:42AM

Shady Tady wrote: »

I'm a garda and I have to say that the vast majority of people I encounter have are extremely positive towards gardai. There are many families out there that have had great experiences of garda going above and beyond the call of duty for them at desperate and tragic times. These people rarely ring joe Duffy or post on boards, you will rarely hear them and it's not that they don't appreciate what is done but their cases are very private and personal. A thread like this dosent bother me in the slightest, posters are anon and it is hard to tell from the drunk driver, paedofile, serial whinger and the decent person who had a genuine bad experiences and met an asshole of a garda. My experiece of drunk and drug fueled public is that they can feel disrespected when told to cop themselves on or when they end up in court. Joe public can be quite nasty to deal with, especially so during the Celtic tiger when every tom dick and Harry had attitude and an ego and bundles of money to spend on coke and alcohol!

I agree that there was a lot of unpleasant, egotistical behaviour during the Celtic tiger years. Yes it must be unpleasant to deal with but many people deal with unpleasant aspects of their jobs and in fairness the gardai are quite well paid.

I still can't equate your argument that the people who complain about the gardai are either criminals or have come in contact with a small minority of corrupt gardai with the facts as I see them.

If we look at the numbers alone, the results so far in this poll show about 50% have serious concerns about the gardai, slightly less than a recent poll carried out by a reputable body and published in a major newspaper. You're argument therefore dictates that 50% of the population are either lunatics/criminals or have had an unpleasant experience with a corrupt guard.

Personally, I'd estimate about 15/20% (asking for it, I know

) of the population as lunatics/criminals which leaves us with 30% of the population as having had a bad experience with a small minority of corrupt gardai.

That simply doesn't add up. It suggests that either a small minority of corrupt gardai are running riot or that corruption is more widespread than you allow.

Another telling example here (aside from what I personally experienced this week which I appreciate cannot be validated) is the treatment dished out to Maurice McCabe since he returned to work.

Here we have an honest and courageous individual (and I think we can all finally

agree on this) who is subject to widespread harassment on his return to work.

Surely if it was only a small minority, the decent majority would not stand for this?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 07-06-2014 12:45AM

Seems to be a lot of outrageous perverts in the force, out just looking for the ride. Or has been my impressions of some of the ones I know of.

Other than that, never had much to do with them thankfully.

Little CuChulainn · 07-06-2014 12:56AM

Dont call me Shirley wrote: »

I agree that there was a lot of unpleasant, egotistical behaviour during the Celtic tiger years. Yes it must be unpleasant to deal with but many people deal with unpleasant aspects of their jobs and in fairness the gardai are quite well paid.

I still can't equate your argument that the people who complain about the gardai are either criminals or have come in contact with a small minority of corrupt gardai with the facts as I see them.

If we look at the numbers alone, the results so far in this poll show about 50% have serious concerns about the gardai, slightly less than a recent poll carried out by a reputable body and published in a major newspaper. You're argument therefore dictates that 50% of the population are either lunatics/criminals or have had an unpleasant experience with a corrupt guard.

Personally, I'd estimate about 15/20% (asking for it, I know ) of the population as lunatics/criminals which leaves us with 30% of the population as having had a bad experience with a small minority of corrupt gardai.

That simply doesn't add up. It suggests that either a small minority of corrupt gardai are running riot or that corruption is more widespread than you allow.

Another telling example here (aside from what I personally experienced this week which I appreciate cannot be validated) is the treatment dished out to Maurice McCabe since he returned to work.

Here we have an honest and courageous individual (and I think we can all finally agree on this) who is subject to widespread harassment on his return to work.

Surely if it was only a small minority, the decent majority would not stand for this?

The general rule is that it takes 9 good experiences to counter one bad experience. The bad experiences are just more memorable. People often mistake a Gardas demeanour for not caring or not being interested. When you're the victim of a crime it's probably one of the most memorable things in your life. It's all you can think about. So when you encounter a Garda who is completely calm you think they don't care. When they don't write down the things you think are important you think they aren't listening.

Most people won't see the work Gardaí do. As an example, a person calls because they caught someone trying to break into their home. 10 Gardaí search the area. Two Gardaí show up half an hour later at the home after searching the area. Homeowner complains about response time.

Gardaí aren't your servants, employees or trusted friends. They are there to do a job. The way you think they should act and the way you think the job should be done is probably not feasible if the job is to be done in any way effectively.

shootermacg · 07-06-2014 01:10AM

A friend of mine used to buy a few nine bars, years ago from a guy in another town. He didn't really deal, more of a group buy to get more hash.

They were travelling down from that guys place with 2 9 bars, when the car was stopped and searched. Now he has never been in trouble with the law and has never had his car searched...coincidence?

They found out that that "guy" was dealing and informing the guards of his customers, hence the ambush.

He was held for 2 nights in the station, where they pumped him for the information, apparently they didn't care that the guys claimed a 9 bar each, they wanted to do the driver for transporting 2 9-bars.

So what happened here? They were happy to leave a bigger dealer in play to make more "smaller fish" arrests? I personally don't know how the bureaucracy works or how they would be rewarded for what they were doing, but it seems they were gaming the system.

Anyway, to make a long story boring, one of the guys who was busted mums sister is a judge's aid, so it never made it to court. Although the driver's charge made it to the DPP, where it was decided no prosecution would take place.

So is the judicial system corrupt, you can bet your arse it is. Should you be surprised? No, it seems to be the way in every country.

True story bro...

kikidelvin · 07-06-2014 01:19AM

I do not envy them their job,however I cannot understand why they seem to think they have to tell lies in order to get a conviction.Are they not able to do their job otherwise?

Dont call me Shirley · 07-06-2014 01:25AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The general rule is that it takes 9 good experiences to counter one bad experience. The bad experiences are just more memorable. People often mistake a Gardas demeanour for not caring or not being interested. When you're the victim of a crime it's probably one of the most memorable things in your life. It's all you can think about. So when you encounter a Garda who is completely calm you think they don't care. When they don't write down the things you think are important you think they aren't listening.

Most people won't see the work Gardaí do. As an example, a person calls because they caught someone trying to break into their home. 10 Gardaí search the area. Two Gardaí show up half an hour later at the home after searching the area. Homeowner complains about response time.

Gardaí aren't your servants, employees or trusted friends. They are there to do a job. The way you think they should act and the way you think the job should be done is probably not feasible if the job is to be done in any way effectively.

Before I leave this for the night I'm going to present two (similar) arguments to you. The first I take from a philosophy lecturer I once had on Utilitarianism and should not be read as evidence of republican leanings. *

After either the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four (forgive my weakness on history) had been wrongly imprisoned the English police became aware that the conviction was baseless and had been secured by dishonest means.

A secret report was commissioned by the police which found that though they were wrongly convicted the public should not be made aware and they should remain in jail as the damage done to the public perception of the force would stop them from doing their jobs effectively, the public would suffer and this suffering would outweigh the suffering of the innocent people in jail.

I would argue that the Irish police force now has a similar mentality. They say, look at all the wonderful work we do in such terrible, difficult circumstances, we must focus on this and not the small minority. Whether or not your political leanings allow for the suffering of a minority to outweigh 'the greater good' surely you can see how it allows for a terribly unhealthy and unsafe culture to develop in a police force.

All of a sudden it's ok to bend a rule here or there, tell a small lie in court, turn a blind eye to this or that because of all the wonderful work you tell yourself the force does and before you know it you have a culture of corruption and dishonesty.

My second argument gets back to one I made earlier. Go to very many homeless shelters, disability homes, mental health facilities in the country and you'll see staff getting treated in the same way you hear of gardai getting treated. People will be assaulted, spat at, verbally abused, sexually abused etc.

There would be outrage if these conditions were used to justify malpractice or abuse in these settings. Yet whenever there's criticisms of the gardai, the first thing we hear is ah sure look at what they have to put up with.

It's simply not an adequate justification.

*If I'm incorrect on of my Birmingham Six/Guildford four facts forgive me and blame my lecturer. I don't think it takes from the argument.

SterlingArcher · 07-06-2014 01:34AM

Well ask yourself this. If they treated a fellow colleague like this for doing the right thing and pointing out officers abusing the law..

Imagine how a member of the public was treated. after he/she was mistreated by one or more of them. And made the error of trying to complain and get justice.

Someone mentioned guards having to deal with the egos of the Celtic tiger era. Copper face jacks was pretty much full of Celtic tiger ego people, full of self entitlement. A lot of those egos put on the uniform after a drunken night's trouble .but didn't have to worry about the consequences of any trouble they caused or drink driving/ drugs they did.

Think that is the point of the whistle blowers is it not?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 07-06-2014 02:53AM

Generally sound enough people, extremely political, reasonably calm, not too brutal, cute, good assessors of situations, clannish.

That's my view.

Bafucin · 07-06-2014 05:22AM

I know of a friend who got a record 'cleaned' because his mate was a guard.

They are not good at sticking to the letter.

Hootanany · 07-06-2014 05:37AM

Piliger wrote: »

A handful of bad eggs but the vast majority are brilliant.

Source please

Piliger · 07-06-2014 09:05AM

Bafucin wrote: »

I know of a friend who got a record 'cleaned' because his mate was a guard.

They are not good at sticking to the letter.

Thank goodness. We need them to do a job and sometimes the kinds of sh1ts they deal with need to be dealt with by nuancing the rules.

Penny Tration · 07-06-2014 09:13AM

Any experiences I've had with them have been positive.

When I reported a rape 8 years ago, they handled it sensitively, got special officers out to speak to me, and only had me speaking to female officers because I was scared of men. Even when I decided not to proceed (out of fear), they rang me twice just to check I was doing okay.

Few years later I was beaten up in Fibbers. Police couldn't have handled it better, especially as I was having a panic attack as I spoke to them.

Witnessed a man being knocked down last year. Police took my witness statement and details, and rang me just to give me advance notice that the insureres would be calling me, and to quickly go over my statement to make sure I had it all right.

Those are my only experiences, and honestly, the gardai couldn't have been better.

Yes, there are some utter scumbags in the force, but from my limited experiences, they've been fantastic.

Little CuChulainn · 07-06-2014 09:36AM

Dont call me Shirley wrote: »

Before I leave this for the night I'm going to present two (similar) arguments to you. The first I take from a philosophy lecturer I once had on Utilitarianism and should not be read as evidence of republican leanings. *

After either the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four (forgive my weakness on history) had been wrongly imprisoned the English police became aware that the conviction was baseless and had been secured by dishonest means.

A secret report was commissioned by the police which found that though they were wrongly convicted the public should not be made aware and they should remain in jail as the damage done to the public perception of the force would stop them from doing their jobs effectively, the public would suffer and this suffering would outweigh the suffering of the innocent people in jail.

I would argue that the Irish police force now has a similar mentality. They say, look at all the wonderful work we do in such terrible, difficult circumstances, we must focus on this and not the small minority. Whether or not your political leanings allow for the suffering of a minority to outweigh 'the greater good' surely you can see how it allows for a terribly unhealthy and unsafe culture to develop in a police force.

All of a sudden it's ok to bend a rule here or there, tell a small lie in court, turn a blind eye to this or that because of all the wonderful work you tell yourself the force does and before you know it you have a culture of corruption and dishonesty.

My second argument gets back to one I made earlier. Go to very many homeless shelters, disability homes, mental health facilities in the country and you'll see staff getting treated in the same way you hear of gardai getting treated. People will be assaulted, spat at, verbally abused, sexually abused etc.

There would be outrage if these conditions were used to justify malpractice or abuse in these settings. Yet whenever there's criticisms of the gardai, the first thing we hear is ah sure look at what they have to put up with.

It's simply not an adequate justification.

*If I'm incorrect on of my Birmingham Six/Guildford four facts forgive me and blame my lecturer. I don't think it takes from the argument.

I didn't actually attempt to justify anything. I was just explaining why perception seems to be so negative.

steddyeddy · 07-06-2014 01:21PM

Einhard wrote: »

Why was your sister in court? No offence, but I'm a tad cynical when people under criminal investigation complain about the guards.

Like the family in Donegal under investigation for murder? The ones who turned out to be framed.

average hero · 07-06-2014 01:54PM

I have a two-fold view on the Gardai.

On the one hand, they are overworked, they are completely under-resourced, I'd imagine that morale is low at the moment. Their minister in Shatter is far from a beacon of integrity. They have an extremely tough job, one which is emotionally and mentally draining. I imagine it is rough at certain times too. On top of this, they are probably dealing with more crime of different sorts than ever before, both indigenous and from Europe. So it's tough and I have sympathy for them in those respects.

On the other hand, in a lot of dealings I have had with them, they have been an arrogant, bully-boy type organisation. Recently, our house was burgled and quite frankly the response from the Gardai was shocking. It took 3 hours for a response from the local squadcar (in suburban Dublin) and after that, a requested phone call was never given. Granted forensics came out, but a PHONE CALL wasn't given to us in follow up after it was SPECIFICALLY requested. Nothing special, just a phone call.

When meeting Gardai in stations to get forms signed for cars etc or at traffic stops etc, I have never been left with the impression that I have had a pleasant, professional dealing with the police force. There is generally apathy, disinterest or an interrogation and suspicious eyeing up. I suppose being a mid-20's male means I'm probably there worst demographic to deal with!

I have heard of Gardai quashing speeding tickets and other charges for friends of theirs (although admittedly, most of it happened in the 90s/early 00s, it's harder to do that now). While working in a busy bar where the Army and Gardai frequent, the Gardai would tend to give the most trouble. Frankly, while off-duty a lot of them were arrogant and loud. Some were very nice of course, but they did stick out as a profession.

In London, any dealings with the Police have been professional and courteous. I don't hope to require their services, but they seem more 'interested' to help than the Gardai. (Makes me sick to say that :P)

So yeah, there are good and bad in the Gardai, but unfortunately my experiences with them have been bad.

corner of hells · 07-06-2014 01:58PM

I dunno how you measure how bad they are , but through work I interact with Gardai maybe 10 or 12 times a month , always find them courteous and professional , I've given statements, made 999 calls , dealt with them face to face in emergencies or on routine situations .
In maybe 4 years I can honestly say I've met one arsehole .

wicklowstevo · 07-06-2014 01:59PM

minidazzler wrote: »

Your arguement is essentially... "I have friends, but you can't meet them because they live in......Lichtenstein, and won't be back til September..." :pac:

sort of a stupid example there mini but isn't that the same with every one here ? lots of storys and no one with a shred of proof either way,

so why should we believe you and not tayto ?

mikemac1 · 07-06-2014 02:04PM

Had to call them once for a intruder in my flat and was impressed with the speed they got here. I rang the local station instead of 999 as it's around the corner from me

They also said they were the only car in the district which was pretty ridiculous. Over 6,000 people in a large and busy area and there is no way a car and two people could deal with everything

It's probably even worse out rural where your nearest car might be across the county somewhere

oholly121 · 07-06-2014 11:37PM

If I could describe the Gardai from the dealings I have had with them it would be unprofessional, power hungry, inept and unwilling to do their job!

PS I'm Irish

As early as yesterday I had dealings with the Gardai up in GNIB where they managed to send a letter regarding my wife's visa to my old address despite me updating the new address with them last year they sent this letter to my old address over a year ago

When I tried to explain the case to one of them the detective garda immediately started shouting at me for no reason when I actually told her could she please stop shouting at me and check the address on the computer she refused o asked her what do I need to do she said shouting at me might I add I DON'T KNOW It this point there was 3 Gardai behind the glass shouting at me I asked them there names and ID numbers they refused to give them to me, I asked for a supervisor they refused, I then asked for a copy of the letter that was sent to me she refused to give it to me but she was nice enough to let me read it through the glass!!!! She told me to phone a number after I asked if I would have to queue for 6 hours again and I wouldn't have to queue once I got onto dpt of justice to see what the problem is I left the hatch and went to reception and asked again to speak to a supervisor the guy on reception went behind and came out and said to me that the garda and her boss where talking about me there and he wouldn't see me as I know what I need to do even though I got no info!!!!

When I got home I phoned the number she gave me 4 times they hung up on me and when I got to speak to someone he said ah yeah I remember you I was there no one shouted at you and you where treated right I just hung up and dealt with justice

So in short I don't really care if morale in the force is low, their pay is not good, their under resourced and blah blah blah fact is they can do whatever it is they want they are beyond the reaches of the law they really don't want to do any work whatsoever.
The only thing that they are interested in is assisting banks throwing people out of their homes and prosecuting motorists in fact this is true because in the last 5 years revenue from fines is up but crime and serious crime detection rates are down I could give many other examples

I hate them they are by far other than politicians the lowest form of existence in this country!!!!!

Penny Tration · 07-06-2014 11:54PM

oholly121 wrote: »

If I could describe the Gardai from the dealings I have had with them it would be unprofessional, power hungry, inept and unwilling to do their job!

PS I'm Irish

As early as yesterday I had dealings with the Gardai up in GNIB where they managed to send a letter regarding my wife's visa to my old address despite me updating the new address with them last year they sent this letter to my old address over a year ago

When I tried to explain the case to one of them the detective garda immediately started shouting at me for no reason when I actually told her could she please stop shouting at me and check the address on the computer she refused o asked her what do I need to do she said shouting at me might I add I DON'T KNOW It this point there was 3 Gardai behind the glass shouting at me I asked them there names and ID numbers they refused to give them to me, I asked for a supervisor they refused, I then asked for a copy of the letter that was sent to me she refused to give it to me but she was nice enough to let me read it through the glass!!!! She told me to phone a number after I asked if I would have to queue for 6 hours again and I wouldn't have to queue once I got onto dpt of justice to see what the problem is I left the hatch and went to reception and asked again to speak to a supervisor the guy on reception went behind and came out and said to me that the garda and her boss where talking about me there and he wouldn't see me as I know what I need to do even though I got no info!!!!

When I got home I phoned the number she gave me 4 times they hung up on me and when I got to speak to someone he said ah yeah I remember you I was there no one shouted at you and you where treated right I just hung up and dealt with justice

So in short I don't really care if morale in the force is low, their pay is not good, their under resourced and blah blah blah fact is they can do whatever it is they want they are beyond the reaches of the law they really don't want to do any work whatsoever.
The only thing that they are interested in is assisting banks throwing people out of their homes and prosecuting motorists in fact this is true because in the last 5 years revenue from fines is up but crime and serious crime detection rates are down I could give many other examples

I hate them they are by far other than politicians the lowest form of existence in this country!!!!!

Holy fcuk, please learn to use some full stops. That's impossible to read.

Little CuChulainn · 07-06-2014 11:57PM

oholly121 wrote: »

If I could describe the Gardai from the dealings I have had with them it would be unprofessional, power hungry, inept and unwilling to do their job!

PS I'm Irish

As early as yesterday I had dealings with the Gardai up in GNIB where they managed to send a letter regarding my wife's visa to my old address despite me updating the new address with them last year they sent this letter to my old address over a year ago

When I tried to explain the case to one of them the detective garda immediately started shouting at me for no reason when I actually told her could she please stop shouting at me and check the address on the computer she refused o asked her what do I need to do she said shouting at me might I add I DON'T KNOW It this point there was 3 Gardai behind the glass shouting at me I asked them there names and ID numbers they refused to give them to me, I asked for a supervisor they refused, I then asked for a copy of the letter that was sent to me she refused to give it to me but she was nice enough to let me read it through the glass!!!! She told me to phone a number after I asked if I would have to queue for 6 hours again and I wouldn't have to queue once I got onto dpt of justice to see what the problem is I left the hatch and went to reception and asked again to speak to a supervisor the guy on reception went behind and came out and said to me that the garda and her boss where talking about me there and he wouldn't see me as I know what I need to do even though I got no info!!!!

When I got home I phoned the number she gave me 4 times they hung up on me and when I got to speak to someone he said ah yeah I remember you I was there no one shouted at you and you where treated right I just hung up and dealt with justice

So in short I don't really care if morale in the force is low, their pay is not good, their under resourced and blah blah blah fact is they can do whatever it is they want they are beyond the reaches of the law they really don't want to do any work whatsoever.
The only thing that they are interested in is assisting banks throwing people out of their homes and prosecuting motorists in fact this is true because in the last 5 years revenue from fines is up but crime and serious crime detection rates are down I could give many other examples

I hate them they are by far other than politicians the lowest form of existence in this country!!!!!

Was this in the main GNIB place in Dublin? Don't civilians work behind the glass?

oholly121 · 07-06-2014 11:57PM

green_screen wrote: »

Holy fcuk, please learn to use some full stops. That's impossible to read.

Lol yeah I just went through everything and forgot bout the punctuation!!!!

oholly121 · 08-06-2014 12:00AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Was this in the main GNIB place in Dublin? Don't civilians work behind the glass?

No this was a garda she identified herself as a detective garda from upstairs!

When I asked could I are some ID she said I don't have to show you so either she was lying and she wasn't a garda or she was and flat out refused to show me her ID either way was very unprofessional

But this is what I mean they can do anything they want and nothing happens!!!

Piliger · 08-06-2014 12:39AM

oholly121 wrote: »

No this was a garda she identified herself as a detective garda from upstairs!

When I asked could I are some ID she said I don't have to show you so either she was lying and she wasn't a garda or she was and flat out refused to show me her ID either way was very unprofessional

But this is what I mean they can do anything they want and nothing happens!!!

Do you really think anyone believes this cock and bull story ?

Tail Docker · 08-06-2014 12:50AM

green_screen wrote: »

Holy fcuk, please learn to use some full stops. That's impossible to read.

I read it. Sounded pretty usual. I have to go in to get forms signed by the gards for work stuff - I dread it, as does everyone else who gets roped in to do it - they make a simple, routine job a pita with their arsey attitude. They also have f.all manners, as it happens.

My s.i.l is a gard, btw.

Tail Docker · 08-06-2014 12:51AM

Piliger wrote: »

Do you really think anyone believes this cock and bull story ?

LOL. you're flat out these days Pils, eh.

Piliger · 08-06-2014 12:53AM

Tail Docker wrote: »

LOL. you're flat out these days Pils, eh.

People who spend a lot of time interacting with the Gardai do so for a reason. "I'm innocent guv!" "honest!" "Ive' been fitted up!"

Tail Docker · 08-06-2014 12:55AM

Piliger wrote: »

People who spend a lot of time interacting with the Gardai do so for a reason. "I'm innocent guv!" "honest!" "Ive' been fitted up!"

Cool. I just get clearance forms and tax forms stamped. I guess that must be an odd reason. You are a strange poster Piliger, if I didn't know better, I'd say you're a real pro.

oholly121 · 08-06-2014 12:57AM

Piliger wrote: »

Do you really think anyone believes this cock and bull story ?

Well seeing as my wife was with me and there was 5 foreign Nationals watching this as it went on its quite true I can assure you

Your obviously a garda or your mates a garda and you have the we are whiter than white opinion

Cop yourself on and stop being blind to the facts that these things happen

Tail Docker · 08-06-2014 12:59AM

oholly121 wrote: »

Well seeing as my wife was with me and there was 5 foreign Nationals watching this as it went on its quite true I can assure you

Your obviously a garda or your mates a garda and you have the we are whiter than white opinion

Cop yourself on and stop being blind to the facts that these things happen

Some people take a view. Others ram a view. Others still influence mass views. Go figure which is which.

How bad are the Gardai and what do we do about it?

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