Stallions

tryfix · 08-05-2014 12:21AM

NewApproach wrote: »

In the interests of balance, he is obviously a stamina influence and no one would expect his produce to be any way precocious. Bear in mind that we haven't even had the Derby trials yet, so there have only been a handful of pattern races in excess of a mile in which they can prove themselves.

He's not necessarily a stamina influence and shouldn't be one on pedigree, for instance that Taghrooda DI 0.79 came from the staying mare Ezima DI 0.65 and that Anipa DI 0.49 came from an unraced mare with a DI of 0.39. They both showed surprisingly good speed for stoutly bred horses.

He seems ideal for injecting speed into dour staying lines. He'd be an ideal stallion for last year's Ascot Gold winner Estimate DI 0.27.

Must keep a good eye on his progeny, he could be the type who produces horses with high DIs that seem to stay well in lower company until they compete at the very highest level where classic stamina really comes into play.

Colonel Sanders · 11-05-2014 03:50PM

Group 3 winner for Sea The Stars at Leopardstown

andyman · 11-05-2014 04:01PM

Looks like Sea The Stars' progeny are the type to improve when they turn 3

UrbanSea · 11-05-2014 05:47PM

And the extremely well bred Sea the Stars colt won the gr.3 at Frankfurt. Probably Getman Derby fav now

tryfix · 11-05-2014 06:13PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

And the extremely well bred Sea the Stars colt won the gr.3 at Frankfurt. Probably Getman Derby fav now

Sea The Moon out of another stoutly bred mare Monsun mare Sanwa DI 0.42 who produced a Dansili half sister to Sea The Moon with a similar stamina profile who raced exclusively at 1 mile or less.:eek:

Today's Prix Hocquart winner Free Port Lux is another one of these types with a speed injection of Oasis Dream to a stamina laden Monsun mare.

Huntthe · 12-05-2014 08:39AM

Looking better for STS recently. Lets see can he get some Group one performers than he will have my blessing :-) To justify his fee with the mares he got he needs that to happen. I don't think he should be let off the hook for not getting more/better 2yr olds. His half brother Galileo sure has no problem getting them and that's the level they have pitched and got paid at. It's possible they will figure out what kind of mares he needs from his first crops rather than just throwing every blue blooded mare they can get at him.

UrbanSea · 03-06-2014 05:51PM

Could you imagine Kingston Hill winning the derby, a son of Danehill Dancer producing French and Epsom Derby winners in his first crop from a fee around 15k. DD was pensioned last week he looks a ready made replacement

bellybuster12 · 03-06-2014 06:02PM

Think he started at 20/25k first year, great start for mastercraftsman, he is 35k this year.

Nulty · 03-06-2014 06:41PM

bellybuster12 wrote: »

Think he started at 20/25k first year, great start for mastercraftsman, he is 35k this year.

Loved the horse, happy to see him performing as a sire

UrbanSea · 03-06-2014 07:09PM

First year 20k, then 17, 15 and finally 12.5 last year. Some happy breeders from last year I'd say

Gringo180 · 03-06-2014 09:28PM

For 10k Intense Focus is producing a nice first crop, could be one to look out for.

UrbanSea · 03-06-2014 09:34PM

Thought he isn't particularly well priced at that. Astaire the only one that stands out, Thewayyouare would appeal more at the price, Fast Delivery I'd take a chance on they have sold very well not sure of early results though

Frankie Lee · 04-06-2014 12:10AM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Fast Delivery I'd take a chance on they have sold very well not sure of early results though

Fast Company?

UrbanSea · 04-06-2014 12:17AM

That's who I meant Frankie sorry

fizzyboy · 04-06-2014 11:25AM

Kodiac is becoming a stallion to follow for 2yos...

Frankie Lee · 07-06-2014 10:20PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

That's who I meant Frankie sorry

No need to apologise. He had his first stakes winner with Baitha Alga today in the Woodcote stakes. He is definitely value at €5k.

bellybuster12 · 07-06-2014 10:21PM

Another great shove on for Mastercraftsman with a 2nd(and a very good one at that) in the derby, could be a real deal sire.

Frankie Lee · 13-06-2014 11:41PM

Another 4 winners in the last two days for Fast Company.

Peintre Celebre · 13-07-2014 12:27AM

Don't think Danehill Dancer receives the credit that he quite deserved. There are very few stallions as versatile as he was. A top two year old, he didnt really train on and started off at a basement fee at stud, rising all the way to the top to become champion sire (this is no mean feat in a time of Sadlers Wells and Galileo dominance-not even the great Sire of Derby winners Montjeu achieved this)

To go from a basement fee to champion would be the equivalent of Dandy Man, Haafhd, Approve or Zebedee being champion sire, something hugely unlikely. What was unique about him versus the regular two year old types is that his actually trained on.

The range of winners he could get was quite extraordinary- sired champion sprinters like Choisir, Starspangledbanner, Guineas winners like the tough Mastercraftsman as well as 1000 guineas winners, and an Oaks winner in Dancing Rain, this is something not even multiple champions have the ability to achieve in their stud careers.

It's fitting that his sons are really coming into their own this year with him being pensioned. Starspangledbanner will e back at Coolmore for the 2015 breeding season despite his fertility issues (he has gotten his success rate to circa 50%), with a phenomenal start at stud with 2 Royal Ascot winners from a small crop. His sire Choisir can throw up some good types off a lower end fee with Olympic Glory or the American gelding Obviously. Fast Company off to a great start this season and Mastercraftsman could well command the same fee as Fastnet Rock next year after producing a classic winner In his first crop having started this season at 35k (was standing for as low as 10). The line can do no wrong at present

Peintre Celebre · 13-07-2014 12:35AM

Tryfix- the most disappointing sires of recent times (results as opposed to sales)

Invasor and Manduro?

tryfix · 13-07-2014 12:40AM

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Don't think Danehill Dancer receives the credit that he quite deserved. There are very stallions as versatile as he was. A top two year old, he didnt really train on and started off at a basement fee at stud, rising all the way to the top to become champion sire (this is no mean feat in a time of Sadlers Wells and Galileo dominance-not even the great Sire of Derby winners Montjeu achieved this)

To go from a basement fee to champion would be the equivalent of Dandy Man, Haafhd, Approve or Zebedee being champion sire, something hugely unlikely. What was unique about him versus the regular two year old types is that his actually trained on.

The range of winners he could get was quite extraordinary- sired champion sprinters like Choisir, Starspangledbanner, Guineas winners like the tough Mastercraftsman as well as 1000 guineas winners, and an Oaks winner in Dancing Rain, this is something not even multiple champions have the ability to achieve in their stud careers.

It's fitting that his sons are really coming into their own this year with him being pensioned. Starspangledbanner will e back at Coolmore for the 2015 breeding season despite his fertility issues (he has gotten his success rate to circa 50%), with a phenomenal start at stud with 2 Royal Ascot winners from a small crop. His sire Choisir can throw up some good types off a lower end fee with Olympic Glory or the American gelding Obviously. Fast Company off to a great start this season and Mastercraftsman could well command the same fee as Fastnet Rock next year after producing a classic winner In his first crop having started this season at 35k (was standing for as low as 10). The line can do no wrong at present

And he was never quite getting the conveyor belt of star mares that Sadler's Wells, Danehill and Galileo were getting. Danehill Dancer was very like his own sire Danehill and what better compliment can there be than that?

Fatsnet Rock had a good week and there's more to come, when this guy starts to roll he'll be unstoppable.

tryfix · 13-07-2014 12:55AM

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Tryfix- the most disappointing sires of recent times (results as opposed to sales)

Invasor and Manduro?

I'd have to think about that, I wouldn't have expected much from either of them and Manduro could throw a champion yet.

I reckon Soldier Of Fortune €10,000 is a stinker for the price they're charging for him and he has a decent pedigree that should have allowed him perform much better.

Peintre Celebre · 13-07-2014 01:09AM

Thought you might be a bit harsh wonder did he get many numbers, had a quick look only five individual winners from his first crop. Didnt Fusaichi Pegasus go to stud circa 100kUSD, though he has at least produced one or two group one winners. Think he stands at about 10% of that now

tryfix · 13-07-2014 01:53AM

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Thought you might be a bit harsh wonder did he get many numbers, had a quick look only five individual winners from his first crop. Didnt Fusaichi Pegasus go to stud circa 100kUSD, though he has at least produced one or two group one winners. Think he stands at about 10% of that now

Soldier is closely related to better performing stallions, Intense Focus and his brother the dirt cheap Heliostatic and despite having a higher level of racing form than the others he still has bombed.

Fusaichi is pretty crap alright, Coolmore paid $60 million for him and he was a $4m purchase himself, blue blooded and he produced some fantastic looking stock who sold for a lot of money and were not great.

He burned a lot of people, Coolmore made their money back on him because they retired him at $150,000 stud fee and shuttled him to Aus as well. He's now $7,500 and shuttling to Argentina. He's still codding people.

Hawkwing has been poor enough as well, can't believe he's still €15,000 a pop. At least he isn't by a sire of sires like Soldier and Fusaichi are.

Must have a look at some of the big race winners who retired at mega bucks fees.

Peintre Celebre · 13-07-2014 05:32PM

Fantastic Light another good example. Started off at 30k sterling. Never sired a group 1 winner. Got a quiet retirement remember reading somewhere Sheikh Mohammed bought him back last year to retire in Newmarket nothing to do with fertility issues.

Another nice winner for Sea the Stars- half sister to Zarkava wins a Listed race at Longchamp

andyman · 13-07-2014 06:24PM

Delighted Sea The Stars is doing so well this year. It looked very bleak for him last year with My Titania being his only group win. So many of his progeny seemed to have trained on big time, though. Much like himself really.

If Taghrooda wins (or indeed runs) in the Oaks next week then he'll have overtaken his own sire in terms of prize money, I believe.

Peintre Celebre · 13-07-2014 07:45PM

I assume you mean overtake for this season only? I'd have thought he is already ahead of cape cross ?

andyman · 14-07-2014 02:54AM

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

I assume you mean overtake for this season only? I'd have thought he is already ahead of cape cross ?

Yeah this season only. If we were talking about the first crop then STS is miles ahead.

EDIT: Although if we were to go on average prize per win STS is miles ahead in that regard also. Cape Cross has a nice chunk of prize money but is £100,000 or so more than STS. Cape Cross has far more winners but in more handicaps rather than the bigger races like STS.

My figure comes from prize money in GB and Ireland only though, so STS probably has collected more if you were to consider France and Germany into the equation,

hucklebuck · 14-07-2014 08:12AM

andyman wrote: »

Delighted Sea The Stars is doing so well this year. It looked very bleak for him last year with My Titania being his only group win. So many of his progeny seemed to have trained on big time, though. Much like himself really

He seriously filled put from 2 to 3 and Oxx said he put another 100kg on from the Arc to standing at Gilltown.

tryfix · 20-07-2014 01:40AM

Noticed the decent run that 100/1 outsider Maid Of The Glens put in in the Irish Oaks today, so I looked her up and she's a decent sort who won by 6l last time.

So I was curious about her sire, The Carbon Unit whose first crop are now 3. A globe trotting 8-11f horse of about listed ability who has produced only one winner Maid Of The Glens out of 6 runners so far and has also produced the Racing Post trophy 4th Dolce N Karma a decent type who hit an OR of 105. With Maid Of The Glens likely to hit an OR of 100 for her Oaks run. That's a very high quality first crop for a horse who himself only ever reached an OR of 96.

Anyhow, he stands at Thistle Farm ( Ire ) for a private fee and has a very high Dosage index of 4.14 which should give a nice bit of speed in his stock. His fee now is probably quite low, he started off at €3,000 which seemed excessive, and dropped to €2,500 before going private. If you are looking for a cheap sire with the potential to upgrade stock and produce pattern class animals, he may be worth looking at.

Stallions

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