Why is Irish still compulsory?

Chancer3001 · 04-06-2014 10:22PM

Just teach maths and reading and writing.

All you need.

/sarcasm

catallus · 04-06-2014 10:24PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

If someone does not speak or comprehend Irish then quite clearly it is not their language. Irish is completely alien to most Irish people. They are forced to learn a language they will never ever use.
It is delusional to say otherwise.

Your grasp of reality seems to be slightly delusional; just because the present generation has been let down doesn't mean that future generations will not benefit from being taught the language; if we take it out of schools then it will surely die.

Azwaldo55 · 04-06-2014 10:29PM

WesternZulu wrote: »

I love the way that people who are all in favour of ditching the language say that it could be time spent learning something else...as if someone who is absolutely sh*t at maths will automatically become brilliant at the subject just because they don't have to learn Irish.

Irish is utterly useless unless you live in remote parts of Galway, Donegal and Kerry.

Maths is used all over the world. It is vital in the modern capitalist global economy.

Obviously the time wasted on teaching an utterly useless language would be better spent teaching subjects like maths, computer programming, science and languages that could actually benefit us such as Chinese and Hindi.

There seems to be a section of people who are almost ashamed to be associated with anything remotely culturally Irish.
I really hate that kind of inferiority complex!!

Irish fanatics believe in compulsory Irish because know the Irish people would vote with their tongues and stop speaking it.
The same mentality existed among the Catholic lunatics who wanted to ban condoms, divorce and homosexuality when they knew Catholic Ireland had long since died.

Lord knows the world is globabized enough without losing interesting and unique aspects which are indigenous to certain regions and countries.

Now we are getting to the root. This is all about a fear of change, a fear of the outside world and return to a mythological Celtic utopia isn't it?

I bet if you had your way you would try and ban foreign literature and films and music. Let's kick out all the foreigners too eh?
Why not go all the way and force people to live in ring forts?

Caiseoipe19 · 04-06-2014 10:31PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Just teach maths and reading and writing.

All you need.

/sarcasm

But what about all those people that won't need anything other than Primary level maths during their lives? Sure these days calculators and computers can do all the thinking.

Surely it's also unfair on all those people being FORCED to learn about algebra and geometry when they won't need it?

So cut down that list to just reading and writing!

Bannasidhe · 04-06-2014 10:32PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

If someone does not speak or comprehend Irish then quite clearly it is not their language. Irish is completely alien to most Irish people. They are forced to learn a language they will never ever use.
It is delusional to say otherwise.

You said it wasn't their native language. It is. If you are Irish then Irish is your native language - whether you speak it or not is immaterial.

I have a new English word for you. Hyperbole.

This is an example : 'Irish is completely alien to most Irish people.'

Most Irish people don't enjoy having a bit of craic eh?
Not a cupla focal among them?
They wouldn't know a madra if it bit them?
Most Irish people don't know what a sloitar is either?

Most Irish people know a few words of Irish therefore it is not alien to them. Mongolian, however, would be alien to most Irish people.

Azwaldo55 · 04-06-2014 10:34PM

catallus wrote: »

Your grasp of reality seems to be slightly delusional; just because the present generation has been let down doesn't mean that future generations will not benefit from being taught the language; if we take it out of schools then it will surely die.

The language is going to be utterly extinct in a generation when all the old timers in Kerry, Galway and Donegal die out. How many young people are going to stick around? The population has become increasingly urban, globalized and cosmopolitan. We now have a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic and multi-faith society. More people speak Polish and Chinese and Arabic in Ireland than speak Gaelic.

WesternZulu · 04-06-2014 10:34PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I bet if you had your way you would try and ban foreign literature and films and music. Let's kick out all the foreigners too eh?
Why not go all the way and force people to live in ring forts?

Talk about jumping the gun and coming to your own conclusions!
You're the one coming across as narrow minded, not me.

Bannasidhe · 04-06-2014 10:35PM

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

But what about all those people that won't need anything other than Primary level maths during their lives? Sure these days calculators and computers can do all the thinking.

Surely it's also unfair on all those people being FORCED to learn about algebra and geometry when they won't need it?

So cut down that list to just reading and writing!

Who needs to learn how to write when we have keyboards?

Pens - sooo last century.

Iwasfrozen · 04-06-2014 10:38PM

Why is Irish still compulsory?

Because the country is run by people too afraid to stand up to the medievalists.

Sunnyisland · 04-06-2014 10:38PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The language is going to be utterly extinct in a generation when all the old timers in Kerry, Galway and Donegal die out. How many young people are going to stick around? The population has become increasingly urban, globalized and cosmopolitan. We now have a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic and multi-faith society. More people speak Polish and Chinese and Arabic in Ireland than speak Gaelic.

My three children all went to Irish speaking schools, Now there children are going to them,everyday they all speak a Cúpla Focal, they all live in Dublin city.

Azwaldo55 · 04-06-2014 10:39PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You said it wasn't their native language. It is. If you are Irish then Irish is your native language - whether you speak it or not is immaterial.

I have a new English word for you. Hyperbole.

This is an example : 'Irish is completely alien to most Irish people.'

Most Irish people don't enjoy having a bit of craic eh?
Not a cupla focal among them?
They wouldn't know a madra if it bit them?
Most Irish people don't know what a sloitar is either?

Most Irish people know a few words of Irish therefore it is not alien to them. Mongolian, however, would be alien to most Irish people.

Just because I can say On Well Kad A Kum Dull Go Dee On Lay Horse Moshy De Holly does not mean Irish is not alien to me.
The same goes for the majority of Irish people.
They don't speak it in everyday conversation, they don't read it on the internet, they don't conduct their business in the language, they don't watch Irish language TV shows or watch Irish language films or sing Irish language songs.
No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium.
The language is dead.

Wibbs · 04-06-2014 10:40PM

And as the seasons pass, with the summer swallows, we await the migration to our shores of the Irish language debate...

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have a new English word for you. Hyperbole.

Actually it's Greek.

Most Irish people don't enjoy having a bit of craic eh?

With more than a bit of irony, that most recent of Irish words is actually middle English.

They wouldn't know a madra if it bit them?

You're on solid ground there anyway.

WesternZulu · 04-06-2014 10:42PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium..

Says the man who doesn't even speak the language.
How do you know?

delw · 04-06-2014 10:44PM

They were talking about this on the radio today & the presenter was saying the government spend 1.8 million on the irish language each year which i find hard to believe.
Any way i think it should be optional after the junior cert.

131spanner · 04-06-2014 10:45PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium.
The language is dead.

Are you looking for a well structured argument on the role of Irish within the education system, or just ranting because you aren't a fan?

With that post as evidence, my money is on the latter.

Azwaldo55 · 04-06-2014 10:47PM

realies wrote: »

My three children all went to Irish speaking schools, Now there children are going to them,everyday they all speak a Cúpla Focal, they all live in Dublin city.

Are the overwhelming majority of Dubliners conversing in Irish?
Absolutely not.
How many Dubliners can speak Irish?
Practically none.
You know this.
Yet you are keeping up the pretence that the language is alive and well?
If people can sliothar or cupla focal or craic that does not mean the language is alive.
Just because a Dubliner says Adiós to his work mates or spies a goodlooking Polish girl and says Jak sie masz does not mean he is fluent in Spanish or Polish either.

Azwaldo55 · 04-06-2014 10:50PM

131spanner wrote: »

Are you looking for a well structured argument on the role of Irish within the education system, or just ranting because you aren't a fan?

With that post as evidence, my money is on the latter.

The posters on this thread seem to be incapable of admitting the fact that the majority of Irish people cannot speak or understand the Irish language after more than a decade of compulsory education in the language or that most Irish people show once they leave formal education demonstrate they couldn't care less.

Yet somehow Irish is our native language? Ridiculous.

I suppose you are also going to claim this country is still Catholic just because people go to baptisms, funerals, Easter and Christmas mass and don't darken a church door any given Sunday?

Bannasidhe · 04-06-2014 10:52PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Just because I can say On Well Kad A Kum Dull Go Dee On Lay Horse Moshy De Holly does not mean Irish is not alien to me.
The same goes for the majority of Irish people.
They don't speak it in everyday conversation, they don't read it on the internet, they don't conduct their business in the language, they don't watch Irish language TV shows or watch Irish language films or sing Irish language songs.
No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium.
The language is dead.

I'm not sure you have mastered English tbh as you seem unfamiliar with the meaning of the word 'alien'

alien
ˈeɪlɪən/Submit
adjective
1.
belonging to a foreign country.
"an alien culture"
synonyms: foreign, overseas, non-native, external, distant, remote More
antonyms: native
(of a plant or animal species) introduced from another country and later naturalized.
"many food chains are based upon alien plants"
2.
unfamiliar and disturbing or distasteful.
"principles that are alien to them"
synonyms: unfamiliar, unknown, unheard of, foreign; More

As for the rest of your hyperbole - if you think there is nothing culturally worthwhile being produced in Irish you are very much mistaken.

By the way - they teach Irish in many Continental Universities. The Germans are particularly fond of it.

And my 25 year old Swiss niece just landed a lovely job with the UN in Geneva due to speaking Irish - they didn't care that she also speaks English, French, German, Spanish and Italian. Millions of people speak those.
She is Swiss because she was born and raised there by my Irish speaking brother and his German wife.

MRnotlob606 · 04-06-2014 10:53PM

We should recognize that there is enormous loss when the cultural wealth of a society disappears and that's encapsulated crucially in its language."
Noam Chomsky

Bannasidhe · 04-06-2014 10:53PM

131spanner wrote: »

Are you looking for a well structured argument on the role of Irish within the education system, or just ranting because you aren't a fan?

With that post as evidence, my money is on the latter.

My money is on ranting because he couldn't learn it.

AnonoBoy · 04-06-2014 10:53PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I have never heard the language spoken even once in everyday conversation anywhere in Ireland outside of the Irish speaking areas of the country. Not even once.

I have heard it used quite regularly. In Dublin too.

You don't speak it on a daily basis and I bet your grasp of it is pretty poor at best.

At what point did I claim I speak it on a daily basis?

My grasp of it is actually very good. I can converse in Irish to a decent level. My Irish is much better than say my German is.

I just said you were incorrect about it not being spoken by anyone outside of the Gaeltacht. And I'm right about that.

You were incorrect.

Incorrect is another word for wrong.

This is very annoying for you I'd imagine.

Iwasfrozen · 04-06-2014 10:54PM

I think people tend to mistake Irish being the historical primary language of Ireland with it being our native language now. This is a ridiculous misconception but when the political independence of this country from the United Kingdom necessitates emphasising our cultural differences to the insecure it's understandable, understandable but still not excusable.

131spanner · 04-06-2014 10:57PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The posters on this thread seem to be incapable of admitting the fact that the majority of Irish people cannot speak or understand the Irish language after more than a decade of compulsory education in the language or that most Irish people show once they leave formal education demonstrate they couldn't care less.

Yet somehow Irish is our native language? Ridiculous.

I suppose you are also going to claim this country is still Catholic just because people go to baptisms, funerals, Easter and Christmas mass and don't darken a church door any given Sunday?

Irish is poorly taught in schools. This is down to the way it is taught, not the language itself. I believe that if improvements were made, there may be more of an interest in it. Maybe I'm wrong.

It is our native language, our past can't be changed. It's something to be proud of. I see the benefits of speaking English fluently, it's the language of business and a great asset to Irish people abroad. That doesn't mean that the Irish language needs to be thrown completely to the wayside in favour of English.

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with the point on Catholicism to be honest.

Iwasfrozen · 04-06-2014 10:58PM

131spanner wrote: »

It is our native language, our past can't be changed. I see the benefits of speaking English fluently, it's the language of business and a great asset to Irish people abroad. That doesn't mean that the Irish language needs to be thrown completely to the wayside in favour of English.

No it isn't. It's the native language of a very small minority of people.

Azwaldo55 · 04-06-2014 10:58PM

As for the rest of your hyperbole - if you think there is nothing culturally worthwhile being produced in Irish you are very much mistaken.

Name one Irish language pop song that has been in the Irish charts in the past decade?
Name one Irish language film that been released in Irish cinemas in the past decade?
Name one Irish language book that has been on Irish bestseller lists in the past decade?
I rest my case.

If there was anything produced in Irish that was worthwhile there would be an audience for it wouldn't there?

Irish people obviously like English language books, films and music don't they? Probably because they speak the language? And because the Irish language is alien?

WesternZulu · 04-06-2014 11:00PM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I suppose you are also going to claim this country is still Catholic just because people go to baptisms, funerals, Easter and Christmas mass and don't darken a church door any given Sunday?

You're some man on making assumptions about other posters I'll give you that.

MRnotlob606 · 04-06-2014 11:00PM

I think the reason People don't like Irish is primarily because Of the way its taught in school, Its confined to one class is strict and dogmatic and no fun.Then people who are able speak Irish fluently too a good standard of communication level are the ones who went to the Gaeltacht and had lots of fun. They key to learning a language is to adopt a positive attitude and not see it as some sort of chore. Irish needs to be taught in a more engaging way.I believe we have the potential to become a bilingual country, people may scoff at this but I think if we get our priorities right, we could do it.

dirtyden · 04-06-2014 11:00PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm not sure you have mastered English tbh as you seem unfamiliar with the meaning of the word 'alien'

alien
ˈeɪlɪən/Submit
adjective
1.
belonging to a foreign country.
"an alien culture"
synonyms: foreign, overseas, non-native, external, distant, remote More
antonyms: native
(of a plant or animal species) introduced from another country and later naturalized.
"many food chains are based upon alien plants"
2.
unfamiliar and disturbing or distasteful.
"principles that are alien to them"
synonyms: unfamiliar, unknown, unheard of, foreign; More

As for the rest of your hyperbole - if you think there is nothing culturally worthwhile being produced in Irish you are very much mistaken.

By the way - they teach Irish in many Continental Universities. The Germans are particularly fond of it.

And my 25 year old Swiss niece just landed a lovely job with the UN in Geneva due to speaking Irish - they didn't care that she also speaks English, French, German, Spanish and Italian. Millions of people speak those.
She is Swiss because she was born and raised there by my Irish speaking brother and his German wife.

Today's award for stating the obvious goes to you.

131spanner · 04-06-2014 11:01PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it isn't. It's the native language of a very small minority of people.

I stand corrected, admittedly a poor choice of words in that sentence.

It's a huge, huge part of our national identity and history.

OneArt · 04-06-2014 11:01PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You said it wasn't their native language. It is. If you are Irish then Irish is your native language - whether you speak it or not is immaterial.

Sorry, but no. Your native language is the one(s) that you have learned from birth. I'm Irish by virtue of my father, but I never heard a word of the language or understood it until I actually moved there when I was ten.

It really gets my goat when people tell me Irish is my native language. It's not. It never will be. I'm a native English speaker, an anglophone. That's something that is different (though in a lot of cases related) to nationality and cultural heritage.

If I went by that logic, Dutch would also be my native language. I don't speak Dutch and have never lived in the Netherlands, but I am also ethnically Dutch.

By the way I'm not anti-Irish language. I think it's a beautiful language with a fascinating grammatical structure (I'm a linguistics nerd). But it is not my native language and will always be "foreign" to me, no matter what my current passport says.

Why is Irish still compulsory?

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