Why is Irish still compulsory?

Azwaldo55

Apart from some sheep farmers in Donegal and Galway and Kerry nobody speaks the language on a daily basis.
Nobody!
Yet precious hours every week that could be better spent training our children for the challenges of the modern economy are wasted on forcing them to try and understand a tongue they find impenetrable and will never have any need to speak.
The most spoken language in this country is English. End of.
The ideology behind maintaining the myth that Irish should be compulsory is hardline republicanism which claims that one day all Irish people will speak Irish.
Whether they want to or not! Whether the language is of any use or not!
The usual refrain of the Irish language fanatics is that it would be a shame to see it go and why should Irish speakers be denied the right to converse in their naked tongue.
A Dubliner who only goes to Galway on the odd holiday or maybe a stag night is supposed to be able to speak this tongue which they would otherwise never speak to please a few thousand people who probably speak English when they come to Dublin.
Most of the craw thumping lunatics who believe the Irish language will one day overcome the foreign tongue surprise surprise cannot speak the language themselves.
Yet they want to force the rest of the non-Irish speaking population to speak this dead language to keep a romantic notion alive and accuse anyone who doesn't want to speak it of being a West Brit!
Having grown up having to learn off atrociously bad poetry by Gabriel Rosenstock I thoroughly despise it and I burned my Irish books the day I left school.
I don't want to stop people from learning the language but it should not be compulsory.
If you want to put yourself willingly through that torture that's fine.
I'm delighted for you.
That should not be my business.
Inflicting this compulsory language has created a hatred and hostility to the language which has ensured its demise as generations of school children refuse to learn it.
The Irish language does not define me as Irish and I would lose nothing if it is gone. It does not define me and I will not miss it if it dies.
How many jobs to you actually need jobs for?
Apart from being Irish language teachers?
Should people be forced to speak Irish to conduct all our business and daily life through the medium or face a firing squad?
So why oh why should Irish be foisted on us?
It is utterly ridiculous to keep it compulsory in our schools.

retalivity

Bi i do thost...

Temptamperu

Im starting to use Irish threads as a timing measurement its better than any seiko.

Duckworth_Luas

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The usual refrain of the Irish language fanatics is that it would be a shame to see it go and why should Irish speakers be denied the right to converse in their naked tongue.

This thread must be what? The Naked Tongue 33⅓?

Arthur Beesley

Temptamperu wrote: »

Im starting to use Irish threads as a timing measurement its better than any seiko.

But not as good as a Tag Heuer.

lukesmom

Cén fáth????

shruikan2553

Im all for making it not compulsory but our more Irish friends will be here soon to tell us about how a country with no language has no soul (not sure how we communicate without having a language) and how its a shame we dont speak our native language (my native language is english as it was my first) then theres how its technically the first language in the constitution but even when it was put in people found it strange because most people used English.

Im sure I missed something but Im sure our favourite Irish speaker will be here soon.

dodderangler

Basically you want irish language gone?
Have some fcukin respect. It's our native tongue and it'd be an awful shame to lose it and see it gone.

The King of Moo

I'm annoyed because I was bad at maths too. I agree OP, maths shouldn't be compulsory!

SpannerMonkey

i hated having to learn it in school. now at 30 years of age id absolutely love to be able to speak it . having said that i doubt il ever bother to learn more than i can remember from my school days
just laziness on my part .
i do think it should be compulsory up to junior cert but optional for leaving cycle

Ted_YNWA

Níl aon scamaill sa spéir.

Is maith liom cailin bainne.

Caiseoipe19

I never liked Geography and have never used it since my school days. Think of all that valuable **** time I've missed out on as a teenager, because I was forced to take them classes. Why is Geography still compulsory in most schools??

Same with History, Science, English (I could already speak and write by secondary school)...

AnonoBoy

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Apart from some sheep farmers in Donegal and Galway and Kerry nobody speaks the language on a daily basis.
Nobody!

Incorrect. Lots of people in other parts of the country do.

Just no people you know.

Captain Chaos

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

I never liked Geography and have never used it since my school days. Think of all that valuable **** time I've missed out on as a teenager, because I was forced to take them classes. Why is Geography still compulsory in most schools??

Same with History, Science, English (I would already speak and write by secondary school)...

Sure why is English, we use it every day. Nothing more to learn about it.:pac:

dissed doc

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Yet precious hours every week that could be better spent training our children for the challenges of the modern economy

One of the biggest challenges of a modern economy is to function properly within a culture. A country and culture are more than simply an economy. From your perspective it is the most important, but English as a language has very little relevance to the culture, community and society which is very much Irish and has evolved even with English (since 1 or generations) become the most common language.

You buy in your own language but you sell in others. It would be completely stupid to become full monoglots like many in the UK. Learning a second language makes learning other languages easier at a later date and later age. Just because you can't speak another language and you want to restrict your entire cultural and business exposure to monoglot English speakers, doesn't mean it's everyone's cup of tea

It's possible for you to just speak English so fire ahead. Someone else who speaks Irish might find they later also find it easier to learn Chinese and encourage some massive industry to set up in Ireland, bringing in more money than an English speaking Starbucks barista ever would.

Talib Fiasco

Jesus if you were going to write a paper on the topic you should have at least done it in Irish so it'll sound good....I'll start if off for you:

A Liam a chara,

Conas atá chúrsaí leatsa?

**Lean ar aghaidh OP**

Fighting Irish

dodderangler wrote: »

Basically you want irish language gone?
Have some fcukin respect. It's our native tongue and it'd be an awful shame to lose it and see it gone.

It'd still be there if you want it, compulsory is being ridiculous considering how important the leaving cert can be for some people.

I've absolutely no interest in Irish, i would have got better marks in leaving if i didn't do Irish

131spanner

It's a huge part of our history and identity. I think it still has a place in our future, minor as it may be. Make it optional and chances are a high percent of students will opt out earlier, making it even more of an uphill struggle to keep it somewhat alive.

In the words of Joni Mitchell, "you don't know what you got til it's gone".

Fighting Irish

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'm annoyed because I was bad at maths too. I agree OP, maths shouldn't be compulsory!

lol

Azwaldo55

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Incorrect. Lots of people in other parts of the country do.

Just no people you know.

I have never heard the language spoken even once in everyday conversation anywhere in Ireland outside of the Irish speaking areas of the country. Not even once.
The Irish language is not the native tongue of the overwhelming majority of the Irish population and they would never have any reason to ever speak it. Try speaking it to people in Tesco or in a club or bar or anywhere else you can mention and people will be unable to converse with you.
You don't speak it on a daily basis and I bet your grasp of it is pretty poor at best.
There is no chance the language will ever become the predominant language in this country.
But I don't have to tell you this. You know it already.
The reason the language is compulsory in schools is because of the hardline republican fanatics who deny this obvious reality.
The emperor has no clothes.

Azwaldo55

131spanner wrote: »

It's a huge part of our history and identity. I think it still has a place in our future, minor as it may be. Make it optional and chances are a high percent of students will opt out earlier, making it even more of an uphill struggle to keep it somewhat alive.

In the words of Joni Mitchell, "you don't know what you got til it's gone".

We waste millions teaching a language to kids from the age of 4 or 5 right up until they are 17 or 18 and about 99% of them come out of school unable to speak or understand it.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

The language clearly is not part of the cultural identity of the overwhelming majority of Irish people in 2014 and it is never going to be.

Keeping it compulsory is a delusion. You know full well only tiny pockets of people in this country speak it and the rest are just making up the marks for the Leaving Cert and then never touch the language ever again.

They use English everyday conversation.

Bannasidhe

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I have never heard the language spoken even once in everyday conversation anywhere in Ireland outside of the Irish speaking areas of the country. Not even once.
The Irish language is not the native tongue of the overwhelming majority of the Irish population and they would never have any reason to ever speak it. Try speaking it to people in Tesco or in a club or bar or anywhere else you can mention and people will be unable to converse with you.
You don't speak it on a daily basis and I bet your grasp of it is pretty poor at best.
There is no chance the language will ever become the predominant language in this country.
But I don't have to tell you this. You know it already.
The reason the language is compulsory in schools is because of the hardline republican fanatics who deny this obvious reality.
The emperor has no clothes.

Technically it is the native tongue of most people - it's just not their first language.

I'm not convinced English is yours given your interesting syntax and apparent confusion as to definitions.

Tell me, are you familiar with the function of the comma?

131spanner

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

We waste millions teaching a language to kids from the age of 4 or 5 right up until they are 17 or 18 and about 99% of them come out of school unable to speak or understand it.

Which is the bigger loss: the supposed "millions" you consider to be "wasted" on teaching the language, or the hypothetical loss of the language itself?

carpejugulum

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

It is utterly ridiculous to keep it compulsory in our schools.

Of course. But there are a lot of busybodies who use tradition as an excuse and who profit - not just financially - from compulsory Irish.

Sunnyisland

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The reason the language is compulsory in schools is because of the hardline republican fanatics who deny this obvious reality.(QUOTE]


Hard line republicans lol,

Irish is a Celtic language. This group includes Welsh, Breton and Cornish - known collectively to scholars as P Celtic - and Irish. The Gaelic of Scotland and Manx are known as Q Celtic. Although far less widespread than the other major language groups of Europe, Celtic languages in 300 BC stretched from Ireland to Asia Minor, from Poland to Spain and Northern Italy.

We feel little need to use it on our daily lives, yet want our children to learn it. When these attitudes are probed more deeply, it seems that our language has become for us one of the few badges which we have left of a distinctive identity as a People. Even those who know little Irish and are themselves cut off from the literary and other traditions of the language, feel in some way that it is an enriching influence in our lives - in its own way a key to our self-awareness and self-understanding.

Azwaldo55

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Technically it is the native tongue of most people - it's just not their first language.

If someone does not speak or comprehend Irish then quite clearly it is not their language. Irish is completely alien to most Irish people. They are forced to learn a language they will never ever use.
It is delusional to say otherwise.

WesternZulu

I love the way that people who are all in favour of ditching the language say that it could be time spent learning something else...as if someone who is absolutely sh*t at maths will automatically become brilliant at the subject just because they don't have to learn Irish.

There seems to be a section of people who are almost ashamed to be associated with anything remotely culturally Irish.
I really hate that kind of inferiority complex!!

Languages like Irish, Catalan, Basque, and others should be encouraged not marginalized.
Lord knows the world is globabized enough without losing interesting and unique aspects which are indigenous to certain regions and countries.

Azwaldo55

realies wrote: »

We feel little need to use it on our daily lives, yet want our children to learn it. When these attitudes are probed more deeply, it seems that our language has become for us one of the few badges which we have left of a distinctive identity as a People. Even those who know little Irish and are themselves cut off from the literary and other traditions of the language, feel in some way that it is an enriching influence in our lives - in its own way a key to our self-awareness and self-understanding.

So it really is just a load of Celtic mystical baloney and has no contact with reality?

ComputerKing

Irish should definitely stay compulsory its our native tongue for God sake its part of our heritage you don't just let it fall away and be forgotten about. And I don't think ye sort of people realise that many people still use Irish on a daily basis even if your not from a Gaeltacht area I know because I'm one of these people.

DanWall

It is tough enough having to get through exams without the added burden of having to learn Irish as an extra subject.
A lot of students will obtain jobs with multinational companies, how many of these need Irish? they need the language of their parent companies country eg German

ancapailldorcha

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

If someone does not speak or comprehend Irish then quite clearly it is not their language. Irish is completely alien to most Irish people. They are forced to learn a language they will never ever use.
It is delusional to say otherwise.

To be fair, one reason a lot of people will never use it is that it is taught so badly in schools by incompetent morons.
In continental Europe, people learn other languages along with their native one. I knew a chap from north Africa who learned 5 languages growing up and he spoke them all fluently. God forbid we overhaul the system so that people might actually be able to speak it or replace it with something useful like Spanish or Mandarin.

Chancer3001

Just teach maths and reading and writing.

All you need.

/sarcasm

catallus

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

If someone does not speak or comprehend Irish then quite clearly it is not their language. Irish is completely alien to most Irish people. They are forced to learn a language they will never ever use.
It is delusional to say otherwise.

Your grasp of reality seems to be slightly delusional; just because the present generation has been let down doesn't mean that future generations will not benefit from being taught the language; if we take it out of schools then it will surely die.

Azwaldo55

WesternZulu wrote: »

I love the way that people who are all in favour of ditching the language say that it could be time spent learning something else...as if someone who is absolutely sh*t at maths will automatically become brilliant at the subject just because they don't have to learn Irish.

Irish is utterly useless unless you live in remote parts of Galway, Donegal and Kerry.

Maths is used all over the world. It is vital in the modern capitalist global economy.

Obviously the time wasted on teaching an utterly useless language would be better spent teaching subjects like maths, computer programming, science and languages that could actually benefit us such as Chinese and Hindi.

There seems to be a section of people who are almost ashamed to be associated with anything remotely culturally Irish.
I really hate that kind of inferiority complex!!

Irish fanatics believe in compulsory Irish because know the Irish people would vote with their tongues and stop speaking it.
The same mentality existed among the Catholic lunatics who wanted to ban condoms, divorce and homosexuality when they knew Catholic Ireland had long since died.

Lord knows the world is globabized enough without losing interesting and unique aspects which are indigenous to certain regions and countries.

Now we are getting to the root. This is all about a fear of change, a fear of the outside world and return to a mythological Celtic utopia isn't it?

I bet if you had your way you would try and ban foreign literature and films and music. Let's kick out all the foreigners too eh?
Why not go all the way and force people to live in ring forts?

Caiseoipe19

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Just teach maths and reading and writing.

All you need.

/sarcasm

But what about all those people that won't need anything other than Primary level maths during their lives? Sure these days calculators and computers can do all the thinking.

Surely it's also unfair on all those people being FORCED to learn about algebra and geometry when they won't need it?

So cut down that list to just reading and writing!

Bannasidhe

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

If someone does not speak or comprehend Irish then quite clearly it is not their language. Irish is completely alien to most Irish people. They are forced to learn a language they will never ever use.
It is delusional to say otherwise.

You said it wasn't their native language. It is. If you are Irish then Irish is your native language - whether you speak it or not is immaterial.

I have a new English word for you. Hyperbole.

This is an example : 'Irish is completely alien to most Irish people.'

Most Irish people don't enjoy having a bit of craic eh?
Not a cupla focal among them?
They wouldn't know a madra if it bit them?
Most Irish people don't know what a sloitar is either?

Most Irish people know a few words of Irish therefore it is not alien to them. Mongolian, however, would be alien to most Irish people.

Azwaldo55

catallus wrote: »

Your grasp of reality seems to be slightly delusional; just because the present generation has been let down doesn't mean that future generations will not benefit from being taught the language; if we take it out of schools then it will surely die.

The language is going to be utterly extinct in a generation when all the old timers in Kerry, Galway and Donegal die out. How many young people are going to stick around? The population has become increasingly urban, globalized and cosmopolitan. We now have a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic and multi-faith society. More people speak Polish and Chinese and Arabic in Ireland than speak Gaelic.

WesternZulu

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I bet if you had your way you would try and ban foreign literature and films and music. Let's kick out all the foreigners too eh?
Why not go all the way and force people to live in ring forts?

Talk about jumping the gun and coming to your own conclusions!
You're the one coming across as narrow minded, not me.

Bannasidhe

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

But what about all those people that won't need anything other than Primary level maths during their lives? Sure these days calculators and computers can do all the thinking.

Surely it's also unfair on all those people being FORCED to learn about algebra and geometry when they won't need it?

So cut down that list to just reading and writing!

Who needs to learn how to write when we have keyboards?

Pens - sooo last century.

Iwasfrozen

Why is Irish still compulsory?

Because the country is run by people too afraid to stand up to the medievalists.

Sunnyisland

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The language is going to be utterly extinct in a generation when all the old timers in Kerry, Galway and Donegal die out. How many young people are going to stick around? The population has become increasingly urban, globalized and cosmopolitan. We now have a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic and multi-faith society. More people speak Polish and Chinese and Arabic in Ireland than speak Gaelic.

My three children all went to Irish speaking schools, Now there children are going to them,everyday they all speak a Cúpla Focal, they all live in Dublin city.

Azwaldo55

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You said it wasn't their native language. It is. If you are Irish then Irish is your native language - whether you speak it or not is immaterial.

I have a new English word for you. Hyperbole.

This is an example : 'Irish is completely alien to most Irish people.'

Most Irish people don't enjoy having a bit of craic eh?
Not a cupla focal among them?
They wouldn't know a madra if it bit them?
Most Irish people don't know what a sloitar is either?

Most Irish people know a few words of Irish therefore it is not alien to them. Mongolian, however, would be alien to most Irish people.

Just because I can say On Well Kad A Kum Dull Go Dee On Lay Horse Moshy De Holly does not mean Irish is not alien to me.
The same goes for the majority of Irish people.
They don't speak it in everyday conversation, they don't read it on the internet, they don't conduct their business in the language, they don't watch Irish language TV shows or watch Irish language films or sing Irish language songs.
No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium.
The language is dead.

Wibbs

And as the seasons pass, with the summer swallows, we await the migration to our shores of the Irish language debate...

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have a new English word for you. Hyperbole.

Actually it's Greek.

Most Irish people don't enjoy having a bit of craic eh?

With more than a bit of irony, that most recent of Irish words is actually middle English.

They wouldn't know a madra if it bit them?

You're on solid ground there anyway.

WesternZulu

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium..

Says the man who doesn't even speak the language.
How do you know?

delw

They were talking about this on the radio today & the presenter was saying the government spend 1.8 million on the irish language each year which i find hard to believe.
Any way i think it should be optional after the junior cert.

131spanner

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium.
The language is dead.

Are you looking for a well structured argument on the role of Irish within the education system, or just ranting because you aren't a fan?

With that post as evidence, my money is on the latter.

Azwaldo55

realies wrote: »

My three children all went to Irish speaking schools, Now there children are going to them,everyday they all speak a Cúpla Focal, they all live in Dublin city.

Are the overwhelming majority of Dubliners conversing in Irish?
Absolutely not.
How many Dubliners can speak Irish?
Practically none.
You know this.
Yet you are keeping up the pretence that the language is alive and well?
If people can sliothar or cupla focal or craic that does not mean the language is alive.
Just because a Dubliner says Adiós to his work mates or spies a goodlooking Polish girl and says Jak sie masz does not mean he is fluent in Spanish or Polish either.

Azwaldo55

131spanner wrote: »

Are you looking for a well structured argument on the role of Irish within the education system, or just ranting because you aren't a fan?

With that post as evidence, my money is on the latter.

The posters on this thread seem to be incapable of admitting the fact that the majority of Irish people cannot speak or understand the Irish language after more than a decade of compulsory education in the language or that most Irish people show once they leave formal education demonstrate they couldn't care less.

Yet somehow Irish is our native language? Ridiculous.

I suppose you are also going to claim this country is still Catholic just because people go to baptisms, funerals, Easter and Christmas mass and don't darken a church door any given Sunday?

Bannasidhe

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Just because I can say On Well Kad A Kum Dull Go Dee On Lay Horse Moshy De Holly does not mean Irish is not alien to me.
The same goes for the majority of Irish people.
They don't speak it in everyday conversation, they don't read it on the internet, they don't conduct their business in the language, they don't watch Irish language TV shows or watch Irish language films or sing Irish language songs.
No art or cultural material of any significance is being produced in the Irish medium.
The language is dead.

I'm not sure you have mastered English tbh as you seem unfamiliar with the meaning of the word 'alien'

alien
ˈeɪlɪən/Submit
adjective
1.
belonging to a foreign country.
"an alien culture"
synonyms: foreign, overseas, non-native, external, distant, remote More
antonyms: native
(of a plant or animal species) introduced from another country and later naturalized.
"many food chains are based upon alien plants"
2.
unfamiliar and disturbing or distasteful.
"principles that are alien to them"
synonyms: unfamiliar, unknown, unheard of, foreign; More

As for the rest of your hyperbole - if you think there is nothing culturally worthwhile being produced in Irish you are very much mistaken.

By the way - they teach Irish in many Continental Universities. The Germans are particularly fond of it.

And my 25 year old Swiss niece just landed a lovely job with the UN in Geneva due to speaking Irish - they didn't care that she also speaks English, French, German, Spanish and Italian. Millions of people speak those.
She is Swiss because she was born and raised there by my Irish speaking brother and his German wife.

MRnotlob606

We should recognize that there is enormous loss when the cultural wealth of a society disappears and that's encapsulated crucially in its language."
Noam Chomsky

Bannasidhe

131spanner wrote: »

Are you looking for a well structured argument on the role of Irish within the education system, or just ranting because you aren't a fan?

With that post as evidence, my money is on the latter.

My money is on ranting because he couldn't learn it.