Wind farms - ugly truths

djpbarry wrote: »

There's plenty of biomass in Ireland's various waste streams - don't really need to be growing more of it.

If we can make it work - bring it on

fclauson wrote: »

So you proposal would be to collect biomass (food, garden waste etc) from households and then burn this to create energy ?

Interested to see the ROI/Costs with this approch

Probably more cost effective to use it as a carbon source in biogas generation.

Macha wrote: »

The only caveat I have on all bioenergy waste and residues, is that in theory it should be something of a diminishing resource.

Very good point, but we're always going to have (for example) copious amounts of human waste!

Macha wrote: »

The thing is, it breaks down anyway when we put it in a landfill and the biogas is captured. But if we were to divert it away from landfill in the first place, we could probably deal with it a lot more efficiently and avoid methane leaking from our landfills.

The only caveat I have on all bioenergy waste and residues, is that in theory it should be something of a diminishing resource. We have lots of people working very hard to cut food waste, etc. So it can only ever be a limited sustainable resource that should be used only in the most efficient installations (e.g. CHP, no electricity-only installations) and I believe they should also be electricity-led to provide flexibility to the electricity system as biomass is dispatchable.

I hate to mention the war - but we do have waste from cattle - plus we can use Grass silage - with that slurry.

Drawbacks to doing that obviously - but it is a POTENTIAL option - not saying its good (or bad) - but it is a POTENTIAL option.

Yes I know it has drawbacks - but could it be improved????

fclauson wrote: »

This is all spread back onto the fields to fertilize. No idea if there would be more benefit in using it elsewhere for energy.

Capturing cows breath would be more effective as that's where there methane comes from

Its been a while since I looked it up - but basically Aneorobic digestion is the process in question - ive spelt it wrong.

Basically the cattle slurry combined with something like Grass silage can be combined - and go through a process - which then generates gas - which can be used for electricity - and if the gas is good enough - can be used as gas - for the gas network afaik.

Its not a perfect solution however - and does have its drawbacks

ted1 wrote: »

our cattle graze most the time so it's impractical to use it, also the energy required to transport it to the facility is greater than that achieved from using it. so its not practical. I've seen the studies.

We can look at adjusting the grazing routine - so cattle are in at night (grass can be zero grazed - tractor and zero grazing machine go around cutting and picking up grass and hauling it in.

Also could possibly look at using more local smaller facilities to reduce the transport distance.

Of course - like most renewable energy solutions - it does need improvement - getting more performance from less product - like wind turbines do.

Again not saying its good or bad - it just merits consideration in terms of FUTURE development and (small scale) implantation

Clearly if you had one big massive plant for the whole country - it can run into issues.

Germany does a fair amount of it (that doesn't make it good or bad - just demonstrates IT CAN be done)

Not a fan of biogas or a supporter of it - but feel we need to keep ALL options open for future development

It certainly has drawbacks - but it is a source of power that could be developed NOW

So its further down the road of development compared to say Ocean Energy - and is potentially more suited to Ireland now - then Solar.

Birdnuts wrote: »

Are we meant to be impressed by a mere 2% reduction in imports and a less than 3% reduction in CO2 emmissions??

Why express savings as a percentage of total fuel imports? Bit daft expecting wind to have an impact outside of electricity generation.

Just a question I was thinking of this morning - do we know at all - of any communities that have commercial wind farms with the 100/150 metre type wind turbines in their area and that have

a) continued to thrive and grow - and continue to be nice places to live

or

b) are actually finding the turbines to be an asset to their communities

Do such communities exist - and if so - what lessons can be learned

Macha wrote: »

Evidence? Wind is lowering wholesale electricity prices across Europe. And we're just discussing a report that shows that wind has helped reduce Ireland's carbon emissions. You're wilfully ignoring evidence put before you and throwing out unsubstantiated claims to the contrary - and convincing no one in the process.


.

Winds costs in terms of subsidies, pylon roll out, back up plants etc. does not show up in bogus wholesale prices as you well know. Which is why wind apologists will always refer to "wholesale" prices as opposed to "retail" prices which is what the consumer and business gets hit with. Ireland would want to cop on fast and learn from the costly mistakes of Germany and more recently Spain.

Macha wrote: »

Because Ireland has regulated retail prices that means the cheaper wholesale electricity prices aren't always passed on. Who's to blame for that? The Irish government and the energy regulator.

And do you have any idea how much fossil fuels and other non-renewable technologies have been subsidised over the years and how much they continue to be subsidised? Or how much they need energy infrastructure and add costs to the system?

Please try to contribute with facts not ill-informed rants. I note that again, your above post has zero references.

Ireland is no different to the likes of Denmark and Germany whose retail bills continue to spiral as they add more and more wind to their grid.

Macha wrote: »

Evidence? Wind is lowering wholesale electricity prices across Europe. And we're just discussing a report that shows that wind has helped reduce Ireland's carbon emissions. You're wilfully ignoring evidence put before you and throwing out unsubstantiated claims to the contrary - and convincing no one in the process.


Yes, they're all across Europe! What's different about Ireland? We have lots of people who in recent years have moved to live in the countryside but their livelihoods aren't actually connected to the countryside. They moved for the 'view' and will oppose anything that they perceive as negatively impacting on that view.

Whats different about Irish planning of wind farms - is that it appears to be the case that communities are just seen as places to put wind farms.

Now if communities are living great - with wind farms around Europe - then we need to look at that - and see how we can change our living to do that over here.

So if we look at Europe and say - they normally are much more inclined to live in Towns and villages over there (in rural areas) then how do we plan that sort of future for Rural communities over here.

My issue is - we don't have that sort of planning here - we are just focused on getting wind turbines in - and theres no positive thinking - on how you MIGHT create a positive future for communities as communities.

Rather then just see communities and rural people as a problem - why not lets work together to see if a situation can be developed over time that would see communities and wind projects work okay side by side.

The problem at the moment that I see - is that wind is just another difficulty rural communities have to work with - the way they are planned is posing yet more difficulties for rural areas - in that we are only looking at communities as places to put turbines.

That sends a negative signal to communities on how we see their future - if they are just going to be a site for a wind farm - it suggests they are been written off.

That's just how i feel.

Btw - poor planning in the past - doesn't excuse poor planning now - in fact if anything - it should lead to better planning if we learn lessons from the past.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But the fact that people have gone so out of their way to distort the facts shows that wind is really making a difference.

The facts are that wind is making a negligible difference to Ireland CO2 emmissions, even if you overlook the shortcomings of SEAI analysis which itself has been revised a number of times going on earlier NREAP documents.