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Jailed travellers need tuition in prison, report claims! - MOD NOTE IN FIRST POST

1356

Comments

  • #62
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    That's a nice sweeping generalization I asked a simple Question. And a sample base of 40. Was a control person used from the area the person was sampled ? As you know the clue is in the name the person sampled could be from a completely different area. Seems this study is looking to prove rather than objectively screen and test.

    I wasn't referring to any one individual. My point still stands - there are a lot of people on After Hours who seem to view travellers as some kind of sub-species, whilst denying that they are a distinct ethnic group.

    Why are so many people so determined to attempt to prove that travellers aren't an ethnic minority?


  • #63
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    RayM wrote: »
    Why are so many people so determined to attempt to prove that travellers aren't an ethnic minority?

    Some might think that it is a bit of an insult to ethnic minorities.


  • #64
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Just because it's part of their culture to have different values other than education (and no, I don't mean that in a sarcastic "let's take a shot at them"), doesn't mean the kids should be left out.

    Plently of parents and families would rather just get drunk every night than have worked hard in school. They have kids and the kid grow up seeing that as the norm. It's not right to punish people that genuinely don't know any better. I'm not saying to spare them prison at all. I'm saying that in prison you're being punished but not having your basic human dignity taken away.

    Education should be for everyone in prison; especially when you can't read or write.


  • #65
    willfarmerman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭willfarmerman


    RayM wrote: »
    I wasn't referring to any one individual. My point still stands - there are a lot of people on After Hours who seem to view travellers as some kind of sub-species, whilst denying that they are a distinct ethnic group.

    Why are so many people so determined to attempt to prove that travellers aren't an ethnic minority?

    In my opinion they are a different race. I can spot them anywhere at 100 yards.



    Mod: banned


  • #66
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    RayM wrote: »
    I wasn't referring to any one individual. My point still stands - there are a lot of people on After Hours who seem to view travellers as some kind of sub-species, whilst denying that they are a distinct ethnic group.

    Why are so many people so determined to attempt to prove that travellers aren't an ethnic minority?

    Why so determined to prove ? I have no issue with it either way. But as soon as you ask questions you get the old retorts, of "then why not just give groups special status" over other citizens for no real reason.


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  • #67
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Some might think that it is a bit of an insult to ethnic minorities.

    I don't understand. In what specific way could giving legal recognition to the fact that - as far as the UN is concerned - travellers fulfill the essential characteristics of a distinct ethnic group possibly constitute an insult to other ethnic minorities?


  • #68
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »
    Just because it's part of their culture to have different values other than education (and no, I don't mean that in a sarcastic "let's take a shot at them"), doesn't mean the kids should be left out.

    Plently of parents and families would rather just get drunk every night than have worked hard in school. They have kids and the kid grow up seeing that as the norm. It's not right to punish people that genuinely don't know any better. I'm not saying to spare them prison at all. I'm saying that in prison you're being punished but not having your basic human dignity taken away.

    Education should be for everyone in prison; especially when you can't read or write.

    Education is for everyone in prison - in principle, if not in practice. But just as you don't throw a 10 year old into a PhD programme, you have to tailor education to meet the differing needs of prisoners. Most traveller prisoners need remedial education - such as literacy and numeracy - to bring them up to scratch to take on a meaningful course of study/training. That's what the link in the OP is about. It's well worth looking into why this is so, but that doesn't help the people who need a better system of education now.


  • #69
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Muise... wrote: »
    Education is for everyone in prison - in principle, if not in practice. But just as you don't throw a 10 year old into a PhD programme, you have to tailor education to meet the differing needs of prisoners. Most traveller prisoners need remedial education - such as literacy and numeracy - to bring them up to scratch to take on a meaningful course of study/training. That's what the link in the OP is about. It's well worth looking into why this is so, but that doesn't help the people who need a better system of education now.

    Well the point I was making was in reply to people saying that it's not in their culture to value education.

    I definitely agree that it's a necessity for everyone, regardless of culture or whatnot to be given basic education.
    The problem is that since Travellers seem to not really care about sending thier kids to school (not the "seem to), what's to be done is difficult.

    But as someone mentioned haven't (whoever it is) the Department of Education tried to go after parents that are Travellers that don't send their kids to school?
    Step in the right direction but also if so, it might make the entire idea education bad since people are coming to the halting sites or whatever to take the kids away


  • #70
    bigroad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭bigroad


    Travellers do not want to be educated for the simple reason that if they were ,Joan Burton could then force them to go on jobbridge or take some course that might lead to a job and that would be very bad news for them.
    The way it is now is that if they are asked to work or get a fas education the simple answer is I cant read or use a pen so i better just take that social welfare payment .


  • #71
    mikehn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 630 ✭✭✭mikehn


    DenMan wrote: »
    Barriers from within the travelling community itself. I'm doing a course with the VEC and one of the girls on it is a traveller herself. It's a very patriarchal society and she knew of women who were on training courses and doing very well but were asked to leave by the male head of the family.
    Action needs to be taken to address the traveller "issue" and in my opinion granting ethnic status is not the way, DEnMan has raised an important issue, irish society is failing the traveller children by not ensuring that they are educated to a reasonable standard thus contributing to continuation of the status quo into the future. Travellers are Irish citizens subject to the sames laws and entitled to the same rights as the settled community. I have lived near a number of traveller families when I was growing up in the 60's, lovely people who were well integrated into their community, the present generation of travellers bear no resemblance to the travellers that I knew, they are quite confrontational, insistent on their "rights". The children are being raised to believe that this is the norm and that is not right.


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  • #72
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    RayM wrote: »
    I don't understand. In what specific way could giving legal recognition to the fact that - as far as the UN is concerned - travellers fulfill the essential characteristics of a distinct ethnic group possibly constitute an insult to other ethnic minorities?

    Because the issues surrounding Travellers have nothing whatsoever to do with their race anymore than discrimination towards a second-generation Icelander living in Norway - if there is any - is down to his or her race.

    It can be seen as a box-ticking exercise that diverts attention from genuine racist incidents, and really distorts the meaning of the word.

    I've no problem with a discussion of prejudice against Travellers, or for them to have special status as a minority group, but all this talk of "racism" is absurd, simply because people generally don't consider them to be a separate race. It's not helpful to anyone.


  • #73
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    bigroad wrote: »
    Travellers do not want to be educated for the simple reason that if they were ,Joan Burton could then force them to go on jobbridge or take some course that might lead to a job and that would be very bad news for them.
    The way it is now is that if they are asked to work or get a fas education the simple answer is I cant read or use a pen so i better just take that social welfare payment .

    You have to be able to read to receive social welfare now. You get asked 3 questions via a touch screen and you have to agree by pressing yes. Then at the end you have to sign your name on said screen for them to verify it’s you and x will not do.


  • #74
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,006 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    artful_codger wrote: »
    Forced settlement in local authority estates is the way to go, for so many reasons that would benefit them (access to GP's, Schools etc). No more halting sites.


    not going to happen, really one is entitled to live in a caravan if they wish, it wouldn't be for you and me mind, but you can't force people to settle in houses if they don't want to or conform to your ideals, as long as they aren't breaking any laws, if they do then they will be dealt with like everyone else

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #75
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Because the issues surrounding Travellers have nothing whatsoever to do with their race anymore than discrimination towards a second-generation Icelander living in Norway - if there is any - is down to his or her race.

    It can be seen as a box-ticking exercise that diverts attention from genuine racist incidents, and really distorts the meaning of the word.

    I've no problem with a discussion of prejudice against Travellers, or for them to have special status as a minority group, but all this talk of "racism" is absurd, simply because people generally don't consider them to be a separate race. It's not helpful to anyone.

    It would only distort the meaning of the word 'ethnicity' if they didn't fulfill the essential characteristics of ethnicity, as set down by the UN - (1) A long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; (2) A cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance.


  • #76
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    RayM wrote: »
    It would only distort the meaning of the word 'ethnicity' if they didn't fulfill the essential characteristics of ethnicity, as set down by the UN - (1) A long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; (2) A cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance.

    There is one major problem


  • #77
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    There is one major problem

    In what way?


  • #78
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    There is one major problem

    What?


  • #79
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    RayM wrote: »
    In what way?
    Nodin wrote: »
    What?

    The reading of what is linked mentions religion, And that not to just be used to define a group.


  • #80
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The reading of what is linked mentions religion, And that not to just be used to define a group.

    I've no idea what you're talking about.


  • #81
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    RayM wrote: »
    It would only distort the meaning of the word 'ethnicity' if they didn't fulfill the essential characteristics of ethnicity, as set down by the UN - (1) A long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; (2) A cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance.

    Okay, but if we agree on that definition - which I am sure was drawn up with the best intentions for the UN member states and didn't have Ireland specifically in mind - it would include Orangemen, many GAA families, Irish speakers and we could probably make the case for Dr Who fans as well.

    But should also then agree that it has nothing to do with race or DNA.


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  • #82
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    RayM wrote: »
    I've no idea what you're talking about.

    The only time different cloths are worn is to partake in a religious ceremony therefore it cant be used to claim ethnic status.

    Anyway I'm out I don't want to be lumped in with the anti crowd, I just don't see any reason for ethnic status. I don't see what other protections not afforded already would help.


  • #83
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The only time different cloths are worn is to partake in a religious ceremony therefore it cant be used to claim ethnic status.

    ....................

    wtf?


  • #84
    downonthefarm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭downonthefarm


    They would buy and sell us country people in a hearbeat
    Its not education they need but learning to treat people the way the want to be treated


  • #85
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,310 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    RayM wrote: »
    In what way?
    Someone earlier in the thread said that traveller women are most open to further education. But under their religious/cultural beliefs, once married a woman, a woman stays at home to raise a family. Not too unlike how backwards our (Irish) society was 50 years ago, but whilst the world has moved on, they have not.


  • #86
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    downonthefarm wrote: »
    They would buy and sell us country people in a hearbeat
    Its not education they need but learning to treat people the way the want to be treated

    I agree and I live in the country too (we all look out for each other here) but if you can't read or write and Dad was always out on the rob and so was his Dad what choices do they have?

    I don't like to have them around either but I just feel that unless they have another genuine choice we have to talk about: more prisons; more Gards; village security schemes, etc.

    Education in prisons could be the best thing that ever happened to some of them.


  • #87
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    the_syco wrote: »
    Someone earlier in the thread said that traveller women are most open to further education. But under their religious/cultural beliefs, once married a woman, a woman stays at home to raise a family. Not too unlike how backwards our (Irish) society was 50 years ago, but whilst the world has moved on, they have not.

    An educated woman who has to stay at home to raise a family can help her children with their homework and encourage them to do well at school.

    50 years ago my "backwards" grandmothers were doing just that. This is why the world has moved on and this is how it will keep moving.


  • #88
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Educate a woman and you're educating a family by extension, whether the woman chooses to go into the work force or not, and you're also instilling pro-education values.


  • #89
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    In fairness though, it's up to parents to ensure their children are educated, it can't really be blamed on the children. When you were a kid would you have chosen to go to school every day?

    I'm no fan of the traveller lifestyle but I still believe they should be given opportunities to join society. In fact I don't see why it should be limited to travellers.

    I agree with you but at some stage they become adults and there is an option to go back and get an education. Seeing as they dont encourage their children to stay in school and dont go back themselves I dont have much sympathy for them, the option is available. At some stage they have to take responsibility of themselves.
    Muise... wrote: »
    Less choice in prison, so not too late at all. In fact, probably much more effective and rewarding for a captive audience.

    While I think their should be education in prison I dont see why we should focus on one group. If they want to help travellers it should be done at a young age or when they wish to go back and learn before they end up in prison.


  • #90
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    While I think their should be education in prison I dont see why we should focus on one group. If they want to help travellers it should be done at a young age or when they wish to go back and learn before they end up in prison.

    The report in the OP is focussing on one group, because that's what reports tend to do if they're worth anything. It does not suggest that An Roinn Oideachas abandon all efforts with traveller children so prisoners can be educated. That'd be daft.


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  • #91
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    kowloon wrote: »
    When I was in primary school a traveller kid was put in with my class. They couldn't read properly and the teacher couldn't give them anywhere near the amount of time they needed. They got bullied and mocked for both their education and being a traveller.

    They could well have a family by now and drawing on their own experience would probably be worried about putting a child into the education system.

    If I was a person that got bullied and mocked for my lack of education, I would make damn sure my children would never be exposed to the same treatment. I would ensure my children attended school when they should and not cart them all over Britain and Ireland during the academic year


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