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Jailed travellers need tuition in prison, report claims! - MOD NOTE IN FIRST POST

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Comments

  • #32
    y0ssar1an22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,542 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    whupdedo wrote: »
    I would think that absolutely everyone that goes into prison should be able to further their education, especially travellers as they seem to have the lowest school attendance rates of any section of society

    Education equals a step up on the ladder of society, so yes I agree it is the way forward, but it probably would have to be made mandatory for the majority to comply with it

    why not do something that ensures they go to school in the first place?


  • #33
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,765 ✭✭✭flutered


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    In fairness though, it's up to parents to ensure their children are educated, it can't really be blamed on the children. When you were a kid would you have chosen to go to school every day?

    I'm no fan of the traveller lifestyle but I still believe they should be given opportunities to join society. In fact I don't see why it should be limited to travellers.

    they are given choices the trouble is they do not advail of them, they deliberatly eensure that their kids do not recieve a decent education, well up to three years ago, since then i dunno, they will marry each other rather than look for a partner outside of their grouping, their lifestile is ssomething i cannot understand how they can afford it i dunno, yet they have no visible means of support.


  • #34
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    y0ssar1an22 wrote: »
    why not do something that ensures they go to school in the first place?

    Why not do that as well


  • #35
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    Is it not just the UK (which includes NI) where the "ethnic minority" title is recognised? At the moment in ROI they're a minority group

    Even if you win the argument that they are not a race, it doesn't mean you can throw them all in a bunch and sneer at them.


  • #36
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Traveller girls/women are much more receptive to education than the Traveller boys/men.


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  • #37
    tony 2 tone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭tony 2 tone


    No good will come of this thread.


  • #38
    y0ssar1an22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,542 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    Maphisto wrote: »
    Why not do that as well


    I think it would be better to educate a child, rather than a criminal. If we have the money to do both, absolutely. If not, surly the child should take priority?


  • #39
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,183 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    D1stant wrote: »
    There are plenty of decent people in prisons. Either jailed for a one-off random offence or some trivial thing. - There were over 400 people jailed last year for not paying the TV license for example.

    I know. And the chances are, they won't require tuition.

    I'm on about the hundreds of scumbags who do.


  • #40
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    Muise... wrote: »
    Even if you win the argument that they are not a race, it doesn't mean you can throw them all in a bunch and sneer at them.

    Legally they are a minority, with the same status as other minority groups. It's a fact here not an argument.

    I can't see any inference if sneering in my post, just a factual statement


  • #41
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    y0ssar1an22 wrote: »
    I think it would be better to educate a child, rather than a criminal. If we have the money to do both, absolutely. If not, surly the child should take priority?

    Money is always a problem even in the CT years.

    Without attacking the prison problem we have that generation on a revolving door of do time -do crime -get caught -do time - do crime ... with no answer for that generation until they're too old to be criminals anymore.


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  • #42
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,187 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    When I was in primary school a traveller kid was put in with my class. They couldn't read properly and the teacher couldn't give them anywhere near the amount of time they needed. They got bullied and mocked for both their education and being a traveller.

    They could well have a family by now and drawing on their own experience would probably be worried about putting a child into the education system.


  • #43
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    Legally they are a minority, with the same status as other minority groups. It's a fact here not an argument.

    I can't see any inference if sneering in my post, just a factual statement

    There isn't any; but you're taking up the mod note on a technicality rather than its "don't be a dick" content.


  • #44
    artful_codger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,449 ✭✭✭artful_codger


    Public schools attempt to inculcate in children beliefs and values that will make them contributing members of the society on which Travellers prey. The Travellers do not want their heirs to internalise and become committed to the values of the dominant society.


  • #45
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    Muise... wrote: »
    There isn't any; but you're taking up the mod note on a technicality rather than its "don't be a dick" content.

    Ok, we'll have to agree the disagree. I wasn't sneering - surely implying that I am doing so is "being a dick".

    Anyway to get back to the OP, I believe that travellers should be given educational opportunities, as with other minorities.


  • #46
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    artful_codger wrote: »
    Public schools attempt to inculcate in children beliefs and values that will make them contributing members of the society on which Travellers prey. The Travellers do not want their heirs to internalise and become committed to the values of the dominant society.

    Just give up then? Invest in extra Gards, security and neighbourhood watch?


  • #47
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    One land, one people, and one law for all. The dream might be far off ... but always worth struggling for.

    Use of the emotive word 'racism' by a forum moderator is quite frankly hysterical. The travelling community have the same DNA as the rest of us. Same roots; same race.


  • #48
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    how much did it cost for this report?


  • #49
    artful_codger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,449 ✭✭✭artful_codger


    Maphisto wrote: »
    Just give up then? Invest in extra Gards, security and neighbourhood watch?

    Forced settlement in local authority estates is the way to go, for so many reasons that would benefit them (access to GP's, Schools etc). No more halting sites.


  • #50
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    topper75 wrote: »
    One land, one people, and one law for all. The dream might be far off ... but always worth struggling for.

    Use of the emotive word 'racism' by a forum moderator is quite frankly hysterical. The travelling community have the same DNA as the rest of us. Same roots; same race.

    But different attitudes to and experience of education. Some of which might be remedied a small bit by a different approach (tutorial, mentoring) to educating travellers in prison. Which is what this thread is about.


  • #51
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Would be interesting to see if the grounds for ethnic status given in the Uk was on Significant DNA divergence to local populations of the traveller community to the country they reside in. If this being the case Majority claim Irish decadency, So in the Republic would there be significant divergence of DNA to the local settled community I highly doubt this. If it’s just cultural differences we have a problem, The wiccan/pagan community here could try and claim ethnic status due to cultural differences, As with a few other groups. I would find it hard to accept if this first group did not recognise this fact, and seems to only claim this status for itself.


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  • #52
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    artful_codger wrote: »
    Forced settlement in local authority estates is the way to go, for so many reasons that would benefit them (access to GP's, Schools etc). No more halting sites.

    OK but the word Forced sends a bit of a shudder down my spine, I'd prefer encouraged (and by carrots rather than sticks) - but that still doesn't address a largely illiterate prison population who when it comes down to hard tacks have very few choices.


  • #53
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    I don't understand why some people feel the need to argue so strongly against travellers being recognised as an ethnic minority. Ironically, they're almost always the very same type of people who view travellers as some kind of sub-species.
    darkpagandeath wrote:
    If this being the case Majority claim Irish decadency, So in the Republic would there be significant divergence of DNA to the local settled community I highly doubt this.

    Yes, there is.


    "THE first DNA analysis of the Travelling community has proven that it is a distinct ethnic minority who separated from the settled community between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago, experts have claimed.

    According to genetics expert Jim Wilson from the University of Edinburgh, though it is clear Travellers diverged from the settled community, it is not clear why.

    He said Travellers are a distinct genetic group as different from the settled Irish as Icelanders are from Norwegians."


  • #54
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    I don't think that mentoring/tutoring them would make any realistic difference. Most travellers and the type of repeat offenders that many of us would consider to be scumbags, are never going to do an honest days work. They've no interest in going out and doing an honest days work for an honest days pay and there's no use crying racism and pretending otherwise.

    We all go round and round in circles in the traveller threads and they all end badly. Sure, not every traveller is a scumbag, but that being said a lot of them behave like scumbags, which is why many of us have a loathing of them.


  • #55
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,310 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    topper75 wrote: »
    One land, one people, and one law for all. The dream might be far off ... but always worth struggling for.
    So.... we start handing out fines for illegal trespass, illegal encampment, illegal dumping? I think not.
    artful_codger wrote: »
    Forced settlement in local authority estates is the way to go
    The houses tend to get burnt down during feuds.


  • #56
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    RayM wrote: »
    I don't understand why some people feel the need to argue so strongly against travellers being recognised as an ethnic minority. Ironically, they're almost always the very same type of people who view travellers as some kind of sub-species.



    Yes, there is.


    "THE first DNA analysis of the Travelling community has proven that it is a distinct ethnic minority who separated from the settled community between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago, experts have claimed.

    According to genetics expert Jim Wilson from the University of Edinburgh, though it is clear Travellers diverged from the settled community, it is not clear why.

    He said Travellers are a distinct genetic group as different from the settled Irish as Icelanders are from Norwegians."

    That's a nice sweeping generalization I asked a simple Question. And a sample base of 40. Was a control person used from the area the person was sampled ? As you know the clue is in the name the person sampled could be from a completely different area. Seems this study is looking to prove rather than objectively screen and test.


  • #57
    quietsailor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Can a carrot & stick approach be used to make them educate themselves - prison sentences are reduced for various things - early admission of guilt etc and possibly (I'm not an expert on this!) early release for good behavior.

    Can these shortening of the sentences be tied to the education - refuse to take education and serve the full sentence/most of the sentence.

    Actually it begs the question why the education of children isn't tied to the allowance - child misses school for no reason, your allowance is cut


  • #58
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Maphisto wrote: »
    carrots rather than sticks

    If they related Children's Allowance to school attendance you'd see a lot more Traveller kids, among others, missing a lot less days in school.


  • #59
    quietsailor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Christ they penal reform folks are calling for "Ethnic Monitoring", that's ethnic profiling, which they always seem to be shouting against

    "The IPRT called for effective ethnic monitoring in the prison system to address issues disproportionally affecting travellers." If I as a member of the settled community not dealing with the travelling community called for that I'd be lynched


  • #60
    willfarmerman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭willfarmerman


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    If only they had access to education outside of prison.

    I should probably explain before people overreact. Everyone has access to education up to the leaving cert. If you choose not to take part then it is your own choice. It's a bit late to start this when they are already in prison.

    Yes a good education will teach a person right from wrong. Sure I learned that in college myself..


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  • #61
    Turtyturd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,404 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    quietsailor wrote: »
    Can a carrot & stick approach be used to make them educate themselves - prison sentences are reduced for various things - early admission of guilt etc and possibly (I'm not an expert on this!) early release for good behavior.

    Can these shortening of the sentences be tied to the education - refuse to take education and serve the full sentence/most of the sentence.

    Actually it begs the question why the education of children isn't tied to the allowance - child misses school for no reason, your allowance is cut

    Sentence lengths are tied to education and other various things (behaviour, working, etc). A prisoner complies with all this stuff and they normally get put on an enhanced regime which leads to TR.


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