Incest in Ireland.

bpmurray · 17-05-2014 10:00AM

The whole issue of something being wrong with the offspring of an incestuous relationship is actually down to simple genetics. If a family has a recessive allele that's present in most of the members of the family, the chances that it will be present in both sets of chromosomes is much higher, in which case it becomes dominant. Or, to put it very simply: if the mother and father both carry a problem in their genes, it is much more likely to be visible in their child.

Merkin · 17-05-2014 10:14AM

kneemos wrote: »

One white kid and one black?..c'mon.

C'mon what? Are you suggesting it's not true?

kneemos · 17-05-2014 10:25AM

Merkin wrote: »

C'mon what? Are you suggesting it's not true?

No.I'm suggesting it's funny,like I said.

Cazzoenorme · 17-05-2014 10:30AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

So... nothing wrong with incest then, when you ignore every reason why there's a whole lot wrong with incest. Everything is just statistics.

If only human beings and relationships were as simple as they are on paper for some people.

There is nothing wrong with two adults having a consensual sexual relationship. If you beg to differ I'm all ears.

Czarcasm · 17-05-2014 10:33AM

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with two adults having a consensual sexual relationship. If you beg to differ I'm all ears.

Genetic mutation was it?

mackeire · 17-05-2014 10:52AM

WhiteWalls wrote: »

People may or may not have been watching the Late Late show there. Woman on who was the product of a sexual relationship between her brother and sister. I always thought that a child born out of incest would be severely disabled. Has or does it go on much in this country?

How can you be the product of a relationship between your brother and sister?

UCDVet · 17-05-2014 11:33AM

People will think I'm trolling, but I really think incestuous marriage should be legally recognized, and all laws against incest should be removed from the books.

Consenting adults and all that jazz.

Flippyfloppy · 17-05-2014 11:45AM

mackeire wrote: »

How can you be the product of a relationship between your brother and sister?

I suppose if the brothers and sisters parents brought you up themselves?

opiniated · 17-05-2014 12:10PM

kneemos wrote: »

One white kid and one black?..c'mon.

I know of an inter-racial couple whose first child was born white. They went on to have black twins two years later. Interesting that all all the children were boys, too!
Strange, but true!

Shakespeare's Sister · 17-05-2014 12:15PM

UCDVet wrote: »

People will think I'm trolling, but I really think incestuous marriage should be legally recognized, and all laws against incest should be removed from the books.

Consenting adults and all that jazz.

I'd kinda agree (if two adult relatives want to get together, how on earth does that affect people who are disgusted by it, other than it disgusting them? It's unusual but not impossible for two relatives to be in love with/fancy each other) but them having children is the problem. And you can't force them to use contraception or rule out an accident.

On a tangent: I randomly dreamed the other night that one of my best friends married her brother - and was really defensive of their relationship too and took no sh-t about it. I don't think I'll tell her about that dream. I do wonder what the hell it meant though?!

She and her bro get on very well, but they're both already married, so... don't think it's gonna happen.

That_Girl_ Is_ A_Cowboy · 17-05-2014 12:54PM

WhiteWalls wrote: »

People may or may not have been watching the Late Late show there. Woman on who was the product of a sexual relationship between her brother and sister. I always thought that a child born out of incest would be severely disabled. Has or does it go on much in this country?

I watched this last night. She's a brave woman. She had tears in her eyes speaking.

Life couldn't have been easy for her at all. To find out that the person she thought was her sister was in fact her mother. She would have had to come to deal with a complex family situation. That the two people she was raised to believe were her parents were in fact her grandparents. The person she thought was her brother was an uncle. Years pass and then there was another bombshell for her. That this person, in her younger years was lead to believe was her brother, turned out to be her uncle and then turned out to be her father.

Good lord. She was so brave last night. I wouldn't have had the courage if it was me.

UCDVet · 17-05-2014 01:39PM

Magaggie wrote: »

I'd kinda agree (if two adult relatives want to get together, how on earth does that affect people who are disgusted by it, other than it disgusting them? It's unusual but not impossible for two relatives to be in love with/fancy each other) but them having children is the problem. And you can't force them to use contraception or rule out an accident.

On a tangent: I randomly dreamed the other night that one of my best friends married her brother - and was really defensive of their relationship too and took no sh-t about it. I don't think I'll tell her about that dream. I do wonder what the hell it meant though?!
She and her bro get on very well, but they're both already married, so... don't think it's gonna happen.

Any couple that can produce offspring has a chance of producing children with some 'defect' or abnormality. Some of which is pretty well understood by medical science, some of which isn't fully known. Aside from incest laws (that aren't limited to actually having children...), I don't know of any other legislation that says, 'Well, you have an increased chance of having a child with medical issues, so it is now illegal for you to have a child'.

There are a lot of genetic diseases people can be 'carriers' for. So we can do a test, or look at family history, and say, 'If John has a child, that child is more likely to have X because John's brother had X'. Tons and tons of these things exist - but we still let John have a kids, if he wants.

Heck, we even allow the same couple who have *already* produced a child with an abnormality to try again. In some of these cases the odds of them producing a 'normal' child might be many times lower than two first cousin's who want to have a child together. But in the first case, it's legal (and what's more, many see it as a BADGE OF HONOUR. 'If our next child has downsyndrome, that's okay. God's will and all, we'll just love it that much more'.)

Seems unfair to target incestuous couples, IMHO.

Vincent Vega · 17-05-2014 01:49PM

sabat wrote: »

Not a generalisation at all- 40% 19-40% of traveller marriages are between first cousins.

A bit off the mark there, and the statistic is over a decade old.

It'd most likely be lower now due to improved networking.

beks101 · 17-05-2014 01:51PM

Surely it's just a matter of there being something fundamentally wrong, emotionally, mentally and psychologically, with a pair of siblings who want to have sex with each other?

Maphisto · 17-05-2014 01:51PM

UCDVet wrote: »

People will think I'm trolling, but I really think incestuous marriage should be legally recognized, and all laws against incest should be removed from the books.

Consenting adults and all that jazz.

I don't think you're trolling and in lesbian or gay relationships where is the possible harm - assuming there's no coercion. I think Turtwig said this earlier.

Somehow though I can't see Enda, or any of our leading lights for that matter, leading the charge on this

Turtwig · 17-05-2014 01:54PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

So... nothing wrong with incest then, when you ignore every reason why there's a whole lot wrong with incest. Everything is just statistics.

If only human beings and relationships were as simple as they are on paper for some people.

Everything consists of statistics. Not everything is statistics. There's a point where a game of hurling is a game of hurling and has nothing to do with statistics. There's a point where the ethics of stealing are determined without resorted to statistics. The reason why statistics is centrefold here is because that seems to be the argument people have agaisnt incest. In incestuous couples the argument is essentially one of statistics and eugenics. There is still a chance that a child may be born perfectly healthy. Why is it seen as such a bad thing if incestuous couples produce a child with CF but a "normal" couple producing a child with CF is someone acceptable? It's a very inconsistent line of reasoning. If can be shown that there's no genetic illnesses being carried in the family is incest now suddenly ok? If not, why not?

You said, "every reason"? what other reasons have you?

Maphisto · 17-05-2014 02:01PM

beks101 wrote: »

Surely it's just a matter of there being something fundamentally wrong, emotionally, mentally and psychologically, with a pair of siblings who want to have sex with each other?

I don't entirely disagree but didn't people use the same argument against homosexuality?

Not just brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles too, its a whole new dating world

Turtwig · 17-05-2014 02:04PM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious, is your last point fact or speculation?

As I understand, it's scientific based speculation. Cholera was rampant on these Islands. Malaria was rife in Africa. Putting it crudely (because I don't understand the pedantry of it myself) if you have one CF Gene you are resistant or immune to cholera and in some strains a stronger resistance to TB, if you have two genes you have CF. In the case of Sickle Cell Anaemia, if you have one SC gene you have resistance to Malaria, if you have two you have Sickle Cell Disease. This is believed to be reason why SC is common in populations where Malaria was a problem and CF is frequent in areas where Cholera was problem. Carriers of these genes had an advantage over non carriers so would have been selected for by natural selection. Evolution isn't just black and white good/bad. It's about trade-offs and in this case it created a horrific illness for some individuals to face simply because it was the mutation that had better chances of reproducing in areas stricken with Cholera.

I'd say Eddy, Sarky or someone else can explain the details a lot better than I can.

steddyeddy · 17-05-2014 02:58PM

You explained it better than I could Turtwig!

Yes some mutations which confer a resistance to one disease can make you prone to another. Cholera toxin works by starting a signalling cascade via the transfer of an adenosine ribosyl group from nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to the alpha sub unit of G-proteins involved in signalling. This results in an increase of ions like chlorine leaving the cell and whenever ions go water follows. This results in sever dehydration and diarrhoea characteristic of cholera toxin.

Those with CF have a defective chlorine transporter due to a mutation (and sometimes other reasons) and therefore have a decreased ability to transfer chlorine out of the cell. This is beneficial when a person is infected with cholera toxin but not in everyday circumstances. The inability to maintain an ion gradient is extremely serious. Luckily CF is one of the diseases which genetic engineering of the patient is becoming a reality.

Adamantium · 17-05-2014 04:01PM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Nowt wrong with incest, Joffrey grew up to be a sound bloke!

There's no cure for being a ****

17-05-2014 04:16PM

what about gay incest ?

umop.episdn · 17-05-2014 04:16PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

what about gay incest ?

You offering bro?

WilyCoyote · 17-05-2014 04:26PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You explained it better than I could Turtwig!

Yes some mutations which confer a resistance to one disease can make you prone to another. Cholera toxin works by starting a signalling cascade via the transfer of an adenosine ribosyl group from nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide to the alpha sub unit of G-proteins involved in signalling. This results in an increase of ions like chlorine leaving the cell and whenever ions go water follows. This results in sever dehydration and diarrhoea characteristic of cholera toxin.

Those with CF have a defective chlorine transporter due to a mutation (and sometimes other reasons) and therefore have a decreased ability to transfer chlorine out of the cell. This is beneficial when a person is infected with cholera toxin but not in everyday circumstances. The inability to maintain an ion gradient is extremely serious. Luckily CF is one of the diseases which genetic engineering of the patient is becoming a reality.

I think we should take all this chlorine cum granis

We're all products of incest. Adam&Eve had three kids ........ Cain, Abel and Seth.

The combos here are ....... Cain and/or Abel and Adam getting it together with Seth/Eve. I hope it's the former as the latter would make us MF's kids.
So why the brouhaha? It wasn't the apple on the tree - 'twas the pair on the ground.

macplato · 17-05-2014 05:36PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

I think we should take all this chlorine cum granis

We're all products of incest. Adam&Eve had three kids ........ Cain, Abel and Seth.

The combos here are ....... Cain and/or Abel and Adam getting it together with Seth/Eve. I hope it's the former as the latter would make us MF's kids.
So why the brouhaha? It wasn't the apple on the tree - 'twas the pair on the ground.

Ehm... Seth was a guy actually

WilyCoyote · 17-05-2014 08:44PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

I think we should take all this chlorine cum granis

We're all products of incest. Adam&Eve had three kids ........ Cain, Abel and Seth.

The combos here are ....... Cain and/or Abel and Adam getting it together with Seth/Eve. I hope it's the former as the latter would make us MF's kids.
So why the brouhaha? It wasn't the apple on the tree - 'twas the pair on the ground.

macplato wrote: »

Ehm... Seth was a guy actually

OK macplato! I think the devil got into me there. I heard a voice which directed me to type that.

Cain/Abel/Seth .......... had their way with the younger daughters. Am giving the mother the benefit of the doubt here ........ Adam preferred one-man type simians. Regardless, it all had to start off again after the deluge. Noah's mob had to make up for the earlier excesses. Even with the sons/daughters-in-law there would have been quite a bit of consanguinity.
Just look at Elizabeth Rex and her shower. Not to be recommended.

There, I've fmop*. Surely a first in this noble forum.

*fixed my own post

Incest in Ireland.

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