Would you vote for a UKIP-like party if it became a major player in Irish politics?

Hotale.com · 13-05-2014 09:30PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Just throwing this out...in a fairly stagnant economy, with fewer jobs being created how does immigration make an economy grow? Just curious.

We'll want the immigrants in the future when the population is greying, and why would they want to come to a country that kicked their parents out 30 years previous?

The Backwards Man · 13-05-2014 09:30PM

Lapin wrote: »

I'd consider voting for a UKIP style party here but not a BNP type party.

A lot of people seem to confuse the two.

I dunno, I'd be inclined to believe the BNP are more 'honest' in their intentions than UKIP. I wouldn't vote for either.

Makood · 13-05-2014 09:31PM

Greentopia wrote: »

I think you misunderstand, my comment was not meant as support for anti-immigration. You're familiar with the phrase I used?

I support the free movement of people to better their lives.

Once they work and contribute..

cloud493 · 13-05-2014 09:33PM

RayM wrote: »

Stewart Lee on UKIP:

If only stewart lee wasn't a nobhead :rolleyes:

Clearlier · 13-05-2014 09:33PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Just throwing this out...in a fairly stagnant economy, with fewer jobs being created how does immigration make an economy grow? Just curious.

More people will need/use more goods and services creating greater demand which requires more workers to satisfy.

But that (to use an American phrase) is Economics 101 so now that I have swallowed the bait what are you trying to catch?

smellmepower · 13-05-2014 09:36PM

Nah,UKIP are just a bunch of wealthy right wingers masking their true political agenda by playing on the fears of pig ignorant xenophobic simpletons.

So I could see a similar party doing quite well here,unfortunately.

Frank Lee Midere · 13-05-2014 09:39PM

Hotale.com wrote: »

I don't exactly think of this as a bad thing, as long as they're not changers there's no issue really.

People giving out about there being a high proportion of mix-raced people in Ireland in the future really gets on my nerves, they seem to have no idea that they're essentially saying that they want to keep the gene pool pure. Very Nazi-esque IMO.

Haven't you just jumped to a totally different subject there? Immigration to Ireland is mostly EU. Why would mixed race come into it?

In any case it's possible to be anti-mass immigration and not racist. I remember when pretty much all the of the left was anti- EU/EEC and most were anti- immigration.

Somewhere in the mid 90's the right turned against the EU and the left learned to love Globalisation. But immigration in the EU context is "worker" immigration. The EU pledges free movement of capital as well. And yet it is contemplating a "Tobin tax" on capital transfers.

I'd be surprised if the left didn't u-turn again.

Hotale.com · 13-05-2014 09:40PM

Makood wrote: »

Once they work and contribute..

(Delete this mods if it comes across as somewhat racist, I'm trying not to be)

I'm not trying to sound like I'm insulting the older generation of African immigrants, but I'm doing my leaving cert this year and the African-born people in my year are amongst the hardest working and soundest people I've met. I know the adults get a load of stick for supposedly leeching resources, but their kids seem to be so much more motivated to do well. The top 2 LC results in my school last year were achieved by foreigners, both over 550 points.

I don't think people will have the same issues with foreigners in 20 years time when we realise that they want to work and contribute just as much as everyone else.

Frank Lee Midere · 13-05-2014 09:42PM

Clearlier wrote: »

More people will need/use more goods and services creating greater demand which requires more workers to satisfy.

But that (to use an American phrase) is Economics 101 so now that I have swallowed the bait what are you trying to catch?

That's definitely not economics 101. If more people came into a recession (which is what you are asked) there would just be more unemployed people. That's because there isn't enough demand for workers in a recession. Adding more workers would not increase demand.

tomwaterford · 13-05-2014 09:42PM

Lapin wrote: »

I'd consider voting for a UKIP style party here but not a BNP type party.

A lot of people seem to confuse the two.

what exactly are the differences....both seem to run on very dodgy anti innigration grounds.....immigration by and large tends to be good for countrys....immigrants don't tend to move to areas with no jobs...so they took our jobs complaints tend to be poorly taught out IMO

Hotale.com · 13-05-2014 09:42PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Haven't you just jumped to a totally different subject there? Immigration to Ireland is mostly EU. Why would mixed race come into it?

In any case it's possible to be anti-mass immigration and not racist. I remember when pretty much all the of the left was anti- EU/EEC and most were anti- immigration.

Somewhere in the mid 90's the right turned against the EU and the left learned to love Globalisation. But immigration in the EU context is "worker" immigration. The EU pledges free movement of capital as well. And yet it is contemplating a "Tobin tax" on capital transfers.

I'd be surprised if the left didn't u-turn again.

I've heard people give out about mixed-race kids, that's all (ignorant shower). I imagine a UKIP-like entity would have the same attitude towards non-EU immigrants than EU immigrants.

Frank Lee Midere · 13-05-2014 09:45PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

what exactly are the differences....both seem to run on very dodgy anti innigration grounds.....immigration by and large tends to be good for countrys....immigrants don't tend to move to areas with no jobs...so they took our jobs complaints tend to be poorly taught out IMO

Immigration is good for owners of capital, skilled workers, the immigrants, workers in non tradable sectors and civil servants. Not so much for unskilled workers.

mfceiling · 13-05-2014 09:48PM

Clearlier wrote: »

More people will need/use more goods and services creating greater demand which requires more workers to satisfy.

But that (to use an American phrase) is Economics 101 so now that I have swallowed the bait what are you trying to catch?

Wasn't trying to throw out bait or anything like that...

Just a point that if you have a weak economy with very few jobs being created, would an influx of immigrants actually benefit the economy? If there were approx 10,000 jobs being created in a country in a year but 30,000 people emigrated to that country surely that wouldn't benefit that country. Again, i'm not throwing out bait, i'm genuinely curious as to how that can work.

tomwaterford · 13-05-2014 09:49PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Immigration is good for owners of capital, skilled workers, the immigrants, workers in non tradable sectors and civil servants. Not so much for unskilled workers.

this is without doubt true...but the lie that they take jobs is just that...they might drive down wages...but deos antone really think UKIP are looking out for low paid unskilled workers....they appear from outside looking in to be a slightly posher version of the BNP

Clearlier · 13-05-2014 09:51PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That's definitely not economics 101. If more people came into a recession (which is what you are asked) there would just be more unemployed people. That's because there isn't enough demand for workers in a recession.

Well I only studied first year economics in UCD so I think it probably is Economics 101!

Genuine question. Are there people who really don't understand how immigration creates greater demand?

Of course there are a whole load of other factors that come into play when it comes to meeting that demand but I think that it should be straightforward enough to understand that in general more people will create a greater level of demand than fewer people.

fullaljackeen · 13-05-2014 09:55PM

Clearlier wrote: »

Well I only studied first year economics in UCD so I think it probably is Economics 101!

Genuine question. Are there people who really don't understand how immigration creates greater demand?

Of course there are a whole load of other factors that come into play when it comes to meeting that demand but I think that it should be straightforward enough to understand that in general more people will create a greater level of demand than fewer people.

Demand is one part of an equation. Plenty of countries with large populations with f' all money to drive an internal market.

Frank Lee Midere · 13-05-2014 10:01PM

Clearlier wrote: »

Well I only studied first year economics in UCD so I think it probably is Economics 101!

Genuine question. Are there people who really don't understand how immigration creates greater demand?

Of course there are a whole load of other factors that come into play when it comes to meeting that demand but I think that it should be straightforward enough to understand that in general more people will create a greater level of demand than fewer people.

One of the basic equations of economics 101 is wage equilibrium. It clearly states that wages are a product of supply ( labour) and demand (capital). I think it's hopelessly wrong but there it is. Increasing labour supply with a constant capital demand either reduces wages, or if wages stay static because wage earners don't take a wage cut, increases unemployment.

It is only in later algorithms that economics deals with feedback loops. (Although I notice that right wing economists never support wage increases to increase demand).

hatrickpatrick · 13-05-2014 10:03PM

The only thing I support about the UKIP is their euroscepticism. So no.
If a socially liberal, pro-immigration, anti-EU party was formed, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat.

Frank Lee Midere · 13-05-2014 10:04PM

fullaljackeen wrote: »

Demand is one part of an equation. Plenty of countries with large populations with f' all money to drive an internal market.

Yeah. By the standards of economics 101 all large countries should be richer than poor ones and the higher the birth rate the better. Which just ain't true. See Pakistan.

mfceiling · 13-05-2014 10:04PM

fullaljackeen wrote: »

Demand is one part of an equation. Plenty of countries with large populations with f' all money to drive an internal market.

This is what i'm getting at.

Sierra Leone is probably one of the poorest countries in the world. Would a large batch of immigrants drive it's economy forward or would the lack of jobs (amongst the many other things) just keep it where it is?

fullaljackeen · 14-05-2014 01:00PM

mfceiling wrote: »

This is what i'm getting at.

Sierra Leone is probably one of the poorest countries in the world. Would a large batch of immigrants drive it's economy forward or would the lack of jobs (amongst the many other things) just keep it where it is?

Depends who the immigrants are. Which is why UKIP and similar parties want more border control in future (AFAIK).

Clearlier · 14-05-2014 01:29PM

mfceiling wrote: »

This is what i'm getting at.

Sierra Leone is probably one of the poorest countries in the world. Would a large batch of immigrants drive it's economy forward or would the lack of jobs (amongst the many other things) just keep it where it is?

I don't know much anything about Sierra Leone but it seems clear that demand would increase if you brought in a whole load of immigrants. If the country/society is unable to meet that demand then everybody is going to be worse off but demand will still have increased. If however they happened to possess skills that enabled them to produce more than they consumed then (all other things being equal) you would expect that to drive the economy forward. It's why you hear talk (and see policies) from politicians welcoming highly skilled immigrants.

Clearlier · 14-05-2014 01:39PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

One of the basic equations of economics 101 is wage equilibrium. It clearly states that wages are a product of supply ( labour) and demand (capital). I think it's hopelessly wrong but there it is. Increasing labour supply with a constant capital demand either reduces wages, or if wages stay static because wage earners don't take a wage cut, increases unemployment.

It is only in later algorithms that economics deals with feedback loops. (Although I notice that right wing economists never support wage increases to increase demand).

Fair enough. I assumed that since I was aware of it it must be taught at a fairly early stage. I've maintained an interest in it ever since and given that it was almost twenty years ago that I studied it I may well have picked it up since.

Always bemused by the whole trickle down economics thing. It seems obvious to me (and this is probably a product of my ignorance) that if you're going to give more money to somebody in an effort to stimulate the economy that you're better off giving a little to a lot of people than a lot to a little people. In particular people on low incomes who are going without goods that they want to buy are more likely to spend the money than a millionaire who already has substantial savings.

Clearlier · 14-05-2014 01:50PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Wasn't trying to throw out bait or anything like that...

Just a point that if you have a weak economy with very few jobs being created, would an influx of immigrants actually benefit the economy? If there were approx 10,000 jobs being created in a country in a year but 30,000 people emigrated to that country surely that wouldn't benefit that country. Again, i'm not throwing out bait, i'm genuinely curious as to how that can work.

I've sort of touched on it in other posts so there may be a little repetition here.

It would certainly drive demand because more people will want more goods and services. Whether it will benefit the economy is a far more complex question. There are costs to integrating somebody into a new society and if you had a sudden large influx of immigrants those costs would increase as the time taken to integrate somebody into a society at even the most basic level would increase. For that reason a steady drip of immigration is preferable to a sudden influx. The question as to whether immigration would benefit the economy depends on the immigrants. If you were to bring in 10,000 illiterate lazy gits who didn't want to take part in society then it's obviously going to have a negative impact. If OTOH you bring in 10,000 highly skilled hard workers who set up or enable the creation of new companies that produce goods and/or services that we would not otherwise have been able to produce then they're probably going to have a positive impact.

orangesoda · 14-05-2014 02:19PM

you are all obsessed with UK politics here so you are

end of the road · 14-05-2014 02:53PM

Hotale.com wrote: »

Time to stir sh*t.

Not a chance I would, Ireland and Europe will desperately need immigrants in the future to keep our economy growing.

meant to click no on the pole, i wouldn't vote for a UKIP like party, just another bunch of politicians telling people what they want to hear but won't deliver, UKIP appeal to the few daily mail types who wouldn't be wannabe right wing enough for the tories and definitely not for the BNP, or left enough for labour (not that they are left really since 1997) UKIP won't stop immigration (because they can't) they won't leave the EU (because they know they would be better off in then out) so they may as well do us a favour and go away, nijel walks the walk and talks the talk but will deliver nothing different to the others

mrduffy · 14-05-2014 03:00PM

The UKIP want to restrict border control to that of Australia, Canada and USA for example people with good skills, education, ability for the shortage of skills in one country ! For example if the country has a shortage of nurses allow alot of nurses in with priority to ones that have fluent english !

14-05-2014 03:02PM

Hotale.com wrote: »

We'll want the immigrants in the future when the population is greying, and why would they want to come to a country that kicked their parents out 30 years previous?

Don't worry, the world is heading for a population crisis in the time frame you mention.

The emphasis will be on having less kids than more.

Very few people have two kids or less, for every couple that have 3 plus it leads to a population increase.

The focus on the world is going to shift substantially in the next 20 years.

Same levels of land to produce food + growing populations + same levels of drinking water available = crisis.

My views on immigration are fairly simple, those who come here and perpetrate criminal acts should be deported.

It's amazing to think in all the years Africans have lived in Galway, I've seldom seen any names in the paper for appearing in the local courts(one or two taxi drivers in disputes being the main ones), then you get the equal numbers of Eastern European block residents who seem to feature just as much as the Irish lads.
Wouldn't mind seeing the back of those types, we haven't the room to jail our own with prisons at maximum capacity, might help keep the local scum bags locked up if we could deport the non national residents.

AZTEC818 · 10-05-2015 09:02AM

Quite a few vote for "Identity Ireland". Are they not a "UKIP style party" ?

Panthro · 10-05-2015 09:36AM

Resurrection of a year old thread?
Mudder a gawd....

Would you vote for a UKIP-like party if it became a major player in Irish politics?

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