Bigger than Shatter - Our Puppet King

sillyoulfool · 07-05-2014 07:29PM

on the river wrote: »

I agree he was exposing the legal system and introducing real reform.

Hope that continues under the new minister.

Labour, the party of rich barristers, had already put a stop to that.

Tail Docker · 07-05-2014 07:30PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Why would any of our lenders choose to give us write-offs?

Dunno why. You'd have to ask one of the Developers what reasons they were given when their loans were written off. Hopefully they still remember, what with all their new enterprises etc..

NowThatsCool · 07-05-2014 07:33PM

On Sept 29th 2008 the FF government issued an unlimited state backed guarantee for the debt of 6 irish banks. FF did this. They did it knowingly. No one else did it. Fact.

Of course we could have then welched on our STATE debt BUT how would that work for our export driven economy given that Argentinian assets are still regularly being impounded and siezed by creditors years after they tried the same stunt ? How would it have worked for a country that was and still is running a current account deficit.

Part of me blames the idiots in FF for failing to provide real economic leadership in the years between the euro and the bust. But much much more of me blames the dopes who mindlessly voted for their daft inflationary policies.

Spring Onion · 07-05-2014 07:33PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Why would any of our lenders choose to give us write-offs?

This tone of defeat gets on my wick. The EU need to find a bloody way to cancel the banking debt. It was private debt!
We need to keep hounding our politicians on this so that they in turn hound the EU and if needs be, we need to threaten default. We showed them our hand when we incorporated private debt into citizen debt but we did it to avert contagion etc. That threat has passed, time to do a deal. Only a strong government with strong leaders can achieve this.

The EU tune is changing but not quick enough, Barroso last month;

Most significantly, the outgoing European Commission president will say that the “spirit” as well as letter of the infamous June 2012 agreement should be fully respected, which pledged to break the link between banking and sovereign debt and specifically referred to Ireland’s special case.
This statement puts him directly at odds with his suggestion in December (though not explicitly said) that Ireland is unlikely to get further retroactive debt relief for its banks.

flutered · 07-05-2014 07:49PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

The big question is: how?

Why would they write off our debt? What possible reason could they have for doing so?

who would kill the goose that lays a golden egg, no bankers are going to refuse money, it is not unlike a bdsm scene, the bankers surrounding the room as nonan and howlin whisper to each other the bankers bet amounst themselves on what the next punishment the hogtied recipent ireland wriggling in a hoepless attempt to escape will have to endure, while noonans and howlins buddy keep georging themselvesat the trough.

Foxhound38 · 07-05-2014 07:52PM

Muise... wrote: »

Some Triple A Golden Maverick, I suspect.

I thought they changed their name to Stop the Water Tax - Socialist Party now? :pac:

Muise... · 07-05-2014 07:55PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I thought they changed their name to Stop the Water Tax - Socialist Party now? :pac:

I was hoping that was Waterford Whispers. :eek:

Kill me now Lloyd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mZ39dn_P4s

Foxhound38 · 07-05-2014 08:02PM

Spring Onion wrote: »

This tone of defeat gets on my wick. The EU need to find a bloody way to cancel the banking debt. It was private debt!
We need to keep hounding our politicians on this so that they in turn hound the EU and if needs be, we need to threaten default. We showed them our hand when we incorporated private debt into citizen debt but we did it to avert contagion etc. That threat has passed, time to do a deal. Only a strong government with strong leaders can achieve this.

The EU tune is changing but not quick enough, Barroso last month;

Most significantly, the outgoing European Commission president will say that the “spirit” as well as letter of the infamous June 2012 agreement should be fully respected, which pledged to break the link between banking and sovereign debt and specifically referred to Ireland’s special case.
This statement puts him directly at odds with his suggestion in December (though not explicitly said) that Ireland is unlikely to get further retroactive debt relief for its banks.

They know damn well we wouldn't default because if we did the country wouldn't be able to fund itself and would collapse. Again, it would mean that we'd have to balance the books immediately - that would make todays taxes and cuts look like boom-time giveaways in comparison. Any Government that did that might as well dissolve their own party in the aftermath.

Being angry and talking tough is one thing, but we need to look at the reality of this too. We have nothing to threaten them with, they have no reason to forgive the debt - we can hound the Enda and Eamon twins, but to be honest I have no idea what they or anyone else could be doing differently in this matter. If SF or Boyd-Barrett or whoever tells you that they would get the debt written off or repudiate it, they are lying to you and taking you for a fool.

They could literally kick down the doors of the EU and demand in their biggest shouty voice that we need a debt write-off, and the simple answer would be "lol, no."

It is an unjust debt. FF signed us up to it - it's a good reason never to let them in the doors of government again. We were taken for mugs, you won't hear me contesting that. But right now, there is no viable way out of it - that's just a fact.

Birroc · 07-05-2014 08:15PM

Less of the loser talk people. I firmly believe we will get debt write-offs down the line but the EU will wait until Portugal/Greece have exited their bailouts and the bulk of the EU economy is thriving i.e. high growth rates. That could take 5-10 years or more.

Woodville56 · 07-05-2014 09:16PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

What does "facing them down" entail precisely?

Dropping the debt and balancing the budget immediately? Any idea how much more pain that would have inflicted on the Irish people than what actually happened under the bailout programme?

The bank guaruntee was stupid, but it was done and dusted before the last government left office - that was a Cowan/Lehnihan mistake.

How do you propose we maintain enough money in the coffers to continue the funding of the State without the bailouts we got?

It's been acknowledged long since by fairly high ranking Eurocrats in Brussels that Ireland got a raw deal from Europe over the banking fiasco, the ECB threatened Minister Noonan same as Trichet & co threatened and bullied Brian Lenehan and the bould Enda hangs out with Frau Merkel on the eve of the general election with the promise of better days, bullied & cajoled in equal measure it seems !
Much easier for Enda & Co to play cutback & taxation hardball with a suppliant and beggared electorate at home than tackle the vested interests in Europe or displease his European "allies" . I voted for the FG/Labour combination at the last election but totally disillusioned and disappointed with their performance at this stage and sadly, from what's on show to date, nothing to shout about on the opposition benches now either ! Will probably hibernate until the upcoming election storm passes over !

KyussBishop · 07-05-2014 09:21PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

The big question is: how?

Why would they write off our debt? What possible reason could they have for doing so?

They have to, because it is unsustainable, and will blow up eventually - it's more a matter of 'if', not 'when':
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/10548104/IMF-paper-warns-of-savings-tax-and-mass-write-offs-as-Wests-debt-hits-200-year-high.html

KyussBishop · 07-05-2014 09:22PM

Spring Onion wrote: »

This tone of defeat gets on my wick. The EU need to find a bloody way to cancel the banking debt. It was private debt!
...

It's actually ridiculously easy for the ECB to cancel it, the only hard part is getting Europe (including Germany) to agree to it - that's the impossible bit.

tomwaterford · 07-05-2014 09:26PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Would you rather some sabre-rattling and the same end result?

There's certainly valid criticisms to be made of the current Government, bank guarantees aren't one of them though.

could they not just cancel the gauntee like??
if Europe wants to save the banks...let them...:pac:

Markcheese · 07-05-2014 09:35PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

could they not just cancel the gauntee like??
if Europe wants to save the banks...let them...:pac:

Well you could just get in your time machine and go back to 08 , or even better go back to 2000/2001 and tell the public about the evils of inflationary spending and rampant property speculation,(but they'd still vote FF)

The Th!ng · 07-05-2014 09:39PM

And let us not forget FG\Labour's treacherous intent to sell off the timber rights of our national forests. Gone with the stroke of a pen were it not for the public outcry. They should hang their heads in shame.

tomwaterford · 07-05-2014 09:44PM

Markcheese wrote: »

Well you could just get in your time machine and go back to 08 , or even better go back to 2000/2001 and tell the public about the evils of inflationary spending and rampant property speculation,(but they'd still vote FF)

that would be good...it was great craic while it lasted though:pac:

that being said at time of bailout...Ireland entered in negosiations in a position of relative strength-being funded for 6+ months...Europe bonds starting to rise going out of control
Europe banks were in risk of ''contagian''...if Ireland had of gone to them and said if you want to save them...why don't you
Ireland could have held out longer than Europe....put it another way Europe needed to save the banks more than Ireland

Ireland should build its economy to a position of relaticve strength and withdraw from the euro...as Europe is far from Irelands friends...I would go a long way before thrusting them to act in Irelands favour ever again

KyussBishop · 07-05-2014 09:49PM

The Th!ng wrote: »

And let us not forget FG\Labour's treacherous intent to sell off the timber rights of our national forests. Gone with the stroke of a pen were it not for the public outcry. They should hang their heads in shame.

Haha, yea - and this was to a fund/group that Bertie was heading too; that was ridiculous.

Woodville56 · 07-05-2014 10:08PM

The Th!ng wrote: »

And let us not forget FG\Labour's treacherous intent to sell off the timber rights of our national forests. Gone with the stroke of a pen were it not for the public outcry. They should hang their heads in shame.

Also, the FG MEP's voted at the EU against a proposed moratorium on fracking last year! So when their agents come looking for votes this time around it gonna be "Frack off" time !!

Gringo180 · 07-05-2014 10:13PM

Just a question about our puppet king. Whats his salary compared to his European counterparts?

Busted Flat. · 07-05-2014 10:18PM

Tail Docker wrote: »

Yes, but then Kenny was summoned and sat down and informed that he would have his balls in his mouth if he sought to renege pretty much literally. I don't forgive his spinelessness - he should have hard-balled it - but I do understand why he did what he did. Still makes him a gutless wonder though. Nothing new there.

To do that you must have balls in the first place.

renegademaster · 07-05-2014 10:23PM

donfers wrote: »

He's just another careerist who has find himself in a position way above his abilities and who believes the only way to maintain that position is via the usual schmoozing, arse-kissing and cabal-building that got him there in the first place. Heaven forbid that we'd ever have a Taoiseach who actually thought the best way to maintain his postion was to do the right thing by the people, to stand strong, to govern.

This guy is an embarrassment to the nation.

I cannot believe the people of Ireland arer going to allow this bastard and others continue in government until april 2016, that's another 2 years of this sh1te and then we vote another shower of backstards into power who think "sure this is great, look at what the last crowd got away with ha, sure tis party time lads woo hoo!!"

christ!

Woodville56 · 07-05-2014 10:47PM

renegademaster wrote: »

I cannot believe the people of Ireland arer going to allow this bastard and others continue in government until april 2016, that's another 2 years of this sh1te and then we vote another shower of backstards into power who think "sure this is great, look at what the last crowd got away with ha, sure tis party time lads woo hoo!!"

christ!

So who would you vote into office next time ? I'm not a supporter of any party at the moment and would be in a dilemma come an election tomorrow, should it arise. I genuinely see no difference in any of them and while I have a difficulty being an abstentionist, I see no value or duty in supporting more of the same. I wouldn't be abusive or name calling of any party member or leader , just disillusioned with, and distrustful of the lot of them ! I wouldn't sling personal abuse at Enda Kenny either, he is probably a decent enough fella who is way out if his depth and of very limited leadership skills and vision, qualities we badly need now ! Looking around the political landscape however, I don't see many of that calibre , do you ? Who are they ?

sink · 08-05-2014 12:25AM

Unfortunately I can't see an alternative to FG/Lab so long as the other choices are FF, SF and ULA, save a few decent independents with little to no power. Honestly voting is depressing.

Tail Docker · 08-05-2014 12:31AM

The Th!ng wrote: »

And let us not forget FG\Labour's treacherous intent to sell off the timber rights of our national forests. Gone with the stroke of a pen were it not for the public outcry. They should hang their heads in shame.

Which the bauld Bertie quietly exited last week - Forestry is no longer a part of his day...I wonder why?

UserNo1 · 08-05-2014 01:31AM

well said OP agree 100 percent

EyeSight · 08-05-2014 02:55AM

sink wrote: »

Unfortunately I can't see an alternative to FG/Lab so long as the other choices are FF, SF and ULA, save a few decent independents with little to no power. Honestly voting is depressing.

I agree. I don't think i will vote next time because there's nobody worthwhile.
I hope there is a severe low voter turn out next time and that will show the real discontent there is out there.

I don't see why i would vote just for the sake of it. Surely that's worse than abstaining?

We need a party with backbone who are not afraid to admit their mistakes and just get on with things. I say it all the time. If they f*ck up and admit it and say "sorry my bad lets try to fix it" then people would respond well - we all make mistakes right? It's better than the current "Deny Deny Deny" strategy that gives the assholes just enough time to reach their pension quota

Bigger than Shatter - Our Puppet King

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