Bigger than Shatter - Our Puppet King

donfers

Ok Shatter has resigned after about a million gaffes, one man down - so what?

Phil Hogan and James Reilly have not yet reached the Enda Quota of a million gaffes before being forced to resign, both men are on about 950,000 screw-ups and counting.

What about the man in charge; the puppet king?

This probably just confirms what you already knew but a senior EU advisor,
Philippe Legrain, who advised Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso in 2011 until last year, has today commented on RTE.

Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, Mr Legrain said it was a mistake for the previous Government to guarantee all Irish bank debts, but it was outrageous for the ECB to threaten to force Ireland out of the monetary union if it failed to do so.
He said the behaviour within Europe amounted to the “very opposite of solidarity” to treat a partner in a bullying way.
Mr Legrain claimed the bullying came mostly from Germany and France, whose banks were exposed in Ireland.
He said other European banks should have been forced to suffer losses, instead of straddling Irish citizens with an unfair debt burden of €64bn.
He said if Irish ministers had faced down the ECB, it would have backed down.
He said they should have said it was “unjust and unbearable” for Irish people to bear debts.
“The currency is supposed to be a community of equals, it's meant to be an expression of our common Europeaneness,” Mr Legrain said.
“But instead of that it's being used as lever for banks in certain countries to impose unjust conditions on taxpayers in another country.”


If any of you vote for Fine Gael you will not be getting my gluten-free bread recipes by PM anymore.


I mean, what a spineless shell of a man, a guy who wants to be the nice obedient boy - Europe's prize pupil as we are basically defacated on by bankers and bureaurcrats.



His handling of his bumbling trio of ministers tells you everything you need to know about the man, it's not about integrity or competence or serving the Irish people; it's about the fact that they were loyal to him during a leadership challenge a few years ago.


He's just another careerist who has find himself in a position way above his abilities and who believes the only way to maintain that position is via the usual schmoozing, arse-kissing and cabal-building that got him there in the first place. Heaven forbid that we'd ever have a Taoiseach who actually thought the best way to maintain his postion was to do the right thing by the people, to stand strong, to govern.


This guy is an embarrassment to the nation.

the_barfly1

well said

Amirani

The previous Government guaranteed bank debts. What did you want Enda and Co. to do?

drunkmonkey

Thinly Veiled vote FF thread.

on the river

hey give Shatter some credit . He wrote the saucey Novel 'Laura':D

Hootanany

Diego Simeone wrote: »

The previous Government guaranteed bank debts. What did you want Enda and Co. to do?

He rolled over and let Merkal tickle his belly

Amirani

Hootanany wrote: »

He rolled over and let Merkal tickle his belly

Would you rather some sabre-rattling and the same end result?

There's certainly valid criticisms to be made of the current Government, bank guarantees aren't one of them though.

donfers

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Thinly Veiled vote FF thread.

Nope I detest them too, the good people of boards.ieland will hopefully not ever vote for them

darkpagandeath

Germany looking after it's own interests.. shocking. Germany says short term pain for long term gain. Only gains I see are for Germany. Everyone seems to forget a few budgets ago Germany got to see our Proposed budget before We even got to see it. I’m not anti Germany but the EU in it’s current form only seems to benefit the heavy hitters it’s very one sided. Places like Ireland have to toe the line.

Son Of A Vidic

Diego Simeone wrote: »

The previous Government guaranteed bank debts. What did you want Enda and Co. to do?

Maybe by using the mandate they were given and not honouring the spineless acquiescence of the previous government. Even just exposing the level of bullying and pressure, that coerced the previous government into the guarantee would have been something. The convenient case of the disappearing letters did not help matters. But like the previous incumbents, they were quickly pulled into line. Then of course embarrassing their masters was never a realistic proposition.

Odyssey 2005

Diego Simeone wrote: »

The previous Government guaranteed bank debts. What did you want Enda and Co. to do?

NOT ANOTHER RED CENT, I think that was how they phrased it in order to cheat us into voting for them.

mikom

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Would you rather some sabre-rattling and the same end result?

There's certainly valid criticisms to be made of the current Government, bank guarantees aren't one of them though.

I'd say Kenny has more a penknife that a sabre tbh.

Wicklowrider

donfers wrote: »

His handling of his bumbling trio of ministers tells you everything you need to know about the man, it's not about integrity or competence or serving the Irish people; it's about the fact that they were loyal to him during a leadership challenge a few years ago.


He's just another careerist who has find himself in a position way above his abilities and who believes the only way to maintain that position is via the usual schmoozing, arse-kissing and cabal-building that got him there in the first place. Heaven forbid that we'd ever have a Taoiseach who actually thought the best way to maintain his postion was to do the right thing by the people, to stand strong, to govern.


This guy is an embarrassment to the nation.

Amen to that.
His Justice/Defence minister is forced to "resign".
What does Kenny do on the national news? Sing Shatter's praises!
Vote FG - the party that values law breaking ministers.
Gombeen self serving hypocrites.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

To the streets men!

Man the barricades!

I don't like what has been done over the past 3 years but I also see that they have dug us out of the s***e hole we were thrown into.

Foxhound38

donfers wrote: »

Ok Shatter has resigned after about a million gaffes, one man down - so what?

Phil Hogan and James Reilly have not yet reached the Enda Quota of a million gaffes before being forced to resign, both men are on about 950,000 screw-ups and counting.

What about the man in charge; the puppet king?

This probably just confirms what you already knew but a senior EU advisor,
Philippe Legrain, who advised Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso in 2011 until last year, has today commented on RTE.

Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, Mr Legrain said it was a mistake for the previous Government to guarantee all Irish bank debts, but it was outrageous for the ECB to threaten to force Ireland out of the monetary union if it failed to do so.
He said the behaviour within Europe amounted to the “very opposite of solidarity” to treat a partner in a bullying way.
Mr Legrain claimed the bullying came mostly from Germany and France, whose banks were exposed in Ireland.
He said other European banks should have been forced to suffer losses, instead of straddling Irish citizens with an unfair debt burden of €64bn.
He said if Irish ministers had faced down the ECB, it would have backed down.
He said they should have said it was “unjust and unbearable” for Irish people to bear debts.
“The currency is supposed to be a community of equals, it's meant to be an expression of our common Europeaneness,” Mr Legrain said.
“But instead of that it's being used as lever for banks in certain countries to impose unjust conditions on taxpayers in another country.”


If any of you vote for Fine Gael you will not be getting my gluten-free bread recipes by PM anymore.


I mean, what a spineless shell of a man, a guy who wants to be the nice obedient boy - Europe's prize pupil as we are basically defacated on by bankers and bureaurcrats.



His handling of his bumbling trio of ministers tells you everything you need to know about the man, it's not about integrity or competence or serving the Irish people; it's about the fact that they were loyal to him during a leadership challenge a few years ago.


He's just another careerist who has find himself in a position way above his abilities and who believes the only way to maintain that position is via the usual schmoozing, arse-kissing and cabal-building that got him there in the first place. Heaven forbid that we'd ever have a Taoiseach who actually thought the best way to maintain his postion was to do the right thing by the people, to stand strong, to govern.


This guy is an embarrassment to the nation.

Who would you have us vote for then, OP?

Lapin

On the downside, Shatter was introducing some long overdue reforms to the legal profession.

They probably won't happen now.

The happiest people in Ireland today are the lawyers.

on the river

Lapin wrote: »

On the downside, Shatter was introducing some long overdue reforms to the legal profession.

They probably won't happen now.

The happiest people in Ireland today are the lawyers.

I agree he was exposing the legal system and introducing real reform.

Hope that continues under the new minister.

Woodville56

Diego Simeone wrote: »

The previous Government guaranteed bank debts. What did you want Enda and Co. to do?

One word -Govern ! He had an electoral mandate to go to Europe and face down the Franco/German/Dutch bullying and he took the soft option for Europe but not for the people of Ireland. His regime has been one of reactive not proactive politics, far removed from the pre-election manifestos of both Fine Gael & Labour. His handling of the Shatter debacle is not "Governing" nor is his kid gloves handing of health in the form of his buddy Dr Reilly. Good intentioned and well motivated he may have been in opposition but his political light weightedness has been exposed over and over. His administration may have turned the finances of this country round a difficult corner, but at an awful cost and hardship to the Irish people, a fact that Mr Kenny and his colleagues in government seem to be unaware of . That will become clearer to him after May 23rd elections, when the government parties get a kicking from those who have repeatedly been kicked over the past years by penal taxation and cutbacks at the instigation and diktat of Kenny's friends in Europe. This government "muddles " it's way from crisis to crisis , it's not "Governing" !

Foxhound38

Woodville56 wrote: »

One word -Govern ! He had an electoral mandate to go to Europe and face down the Franco/German/Dutch bullying and he took the soft option for Europe but not for the people of Ireland. His regime has been one of reactive not proactive politics, far removed from the pre-election manifestos of both Fine Gael & Labour. His handling of the Shatter debacle is not "Governing" nor is his kid gloves handing of health in the form of his buddy Dr Reilly. Good intentioned and well motivated he may have been in opposition but his political light weightedness has been exposed over and over. His administration may have turned the finances of this country round a difficult corner, but at an awful cost and hardship to the Irish people, a fact that Mr Kenny and his colleagues in government seem to be unaware of . That will become clearer to him after May 23rd elections, when the government parties get a kicking from those who have repeatedly been kicked over the past years by penal taxation and cutbacks at the instigation and diktat of Kenny's friends in Europe. This government "muddles " it's way from crisis to crisis , it's not "Governing" !

What does "facing them down" entail precisely?

Dropping the debt and balancing the budget immediately? Any idea how much more pain that would have inflicted on the Irish people than what actually happened under the bailout programme?

The bank guaruntee was stupid, but it was done and dusted before the last government left office - that was a Cowan/Lehnihan mistake.

How do you propose we maintain enough money in the coffers to continue the funding of the State without the bailouts we got?

Davarus Walrus

I'll be giving my local FG candidate (Brian Hayes) my number one preference in the European elections. With my 2nd preference going to Emer Costello of the Labour Party.

I'll also be giving FG and Labour my 1st and 2nd votes in the next General Election. I think this Government has done a really good job considering the unprecedented circumstances they faced upon taking office. Having to take that much money out of the economy will always result in higher taxes and cuts to services. I think they did a reasonably good job of balancing that. There isn't a magic elixir that could solve all the problems - despite what people like SF and the loony left go on about. Tis very easy be populist when you don't have to make any decisions.

Wicklowrider

Griffin Mango Sarcasm wrote: »

I don't like what has been done over the past 3 years but I also see that they have dug us out of the s***e hole we were thrown into.

I thought USC, Property Tax and all those nasty things Enda and the good guys inherited from the "previous administration " were what was paying off the debts? In other words, while Enda and Co are giving whistleblowers grief or getting tickled by Sarkozy or misusing private data, we are paying our way out trouble.

Spring Onion

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Who would you have us vote for then, OP?

I actually expect a new party or two by the next GE. God knows we need alternatives. This government have been a huge disappointment.

I agree with the OP, socialising the private debt into our national debt is ruining this country and will continue to ruin this country until we get debt forgiveness (not sure that's the correct word seeing as though it was unfair to begin with).

Tail Docker

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

NOT ANOTHER RED CENT, I think that was how they phrased it in order to cheat us into voting for them.

Yes, but then Kenny was summoned and sat down and informed that he would have his balls in his mouth if he sought to renege pretty much literally. I don't forgive his spinelessness - he should have hard-balled it - but I do understand why he did what he did. Still makes him a gutless wonder though. Nothing new there.

Arthur Beesley

Hootanany wrote: »

He rolled over and let Merkal tickle his belly

Who or what is Merkal?

Spring Onion

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I'll be giving my local FG candidate (Brian Hayes) my number one preference in the European elections. With my 2nd preference going to Emer Costello of the Labour Party.

I'll also be giving FG and Labour my 1st and 2nd votes in the next General Election. I think this Government has done a really good job considering the unprecedented circumstances they faced upon taking office. Having to take that much money out of the economy will always result in higher taxes and cuts to services. I think they did a reasonably good job of balancing that. There isn't a magic elixir that could solve all the problems - despite what people like SF and the loony left go on about. Tis very easy be populist when you don't have to make any decisions.

You like paying other people's debts then? Good, you're just what FG & Labour and FF want.

Amirani

Spring Onion wrote: »

You like paying other people's debts then? Good, you're just what FG & Labour and FF want.

They're Irish sovereign debts now, have been since the bank guarantee.

Foxhound38

Spring Onion wrote: »

I actually expect a new party or two by the next GE. God knows we need alternatives. This government have been a huge disappointment.

I agree with the OP, socialising the private debt into our national debt is ruining this country and will continue to ruin this country until we get debt forgiveness (not sure that's the correct word seeing as though it was unfair to begin with).

Debt forgiveness at this stage isn't even a decision any government has available to it - the forgiveness we need is a writedown from the bailout providers, but we don't really have a way to force them to do it.

We could repudiate it altogether I suppose, but that would likely destroy the country and turn us into an even bigger basketcase.

In fairness to Kenny etc, things do seem to be getting better. Gaffe prone as they are, things are picking up economically and it's starting to show. I don't vote FG (tend to go indo these days and intend to do the same this time around) but they and Labour will be getting a high preference from me when the time comes.

Spring Onion

Diego Simeone wrote: »

They're Irish sovereign debts now, have been since the bank guarantee.

I know. So that's it then? Done deal, lets all knuckle down and pay them for the next few decades.

Yes forgiveness = write-offs. We need that banking debt written off or we will wallow in austerity.

Amirani

Spring Onion wrote: »

I know. So that's it then? Done deal, lets all knuckle down and pay them for the next few decades.

Yes forgiveness = write-offs. We need that banking debt written off or we will wallow in austerity.

Why would any of our lenders choose to give us write-offs?

Foxhound38

Spring Onion wrote: »

Yes forgiveness = write-offs. We need that banking debt written off or we will wallow in austerity.

The big question is: how?

Why would they write off our debt? What possible reason could they have for doing so?

Muise...

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Who would you have us vote for then, OP?

Some Triple A Golden Maverick, I suspect.

sillyoulfool

on the river wrote: »

I agree he was exposing the legal system and introducing real reform.

Hope that continues under the new minister.

Labour, the party of rich barristers, had already put a stop to that.

Tail Docker

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Why would any of our lenders choose to give us write-offs?

Dunno why. You'd have to ask one of the Developers what reasons they were given when their loans were written off. Hopefully they still remember, what with all their new enterprises etc..

NowThatsCool

On Sept 29th 2008 the FF government issued an unlimited state backed guarantee for the debt of 6 irish banks. FF did this. They did it knowingly. No one else did it. Fact.

Of course we could have then welched on our STATE debt BUT how would that work for our export driven economy given that Argentinian assets are still regularly being impounded and siezed by creditors years after they tried the same stunt ? How would it have worked for a country that was and still is running a current account deficit.

Part of me blames the idiots in FF for failing to provide real economic leadership in the years between the euro and the bust. But much much more of me blames the dopes who mindlessly voted for their daft inflationary policies.

Spring Onion

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Why would any of our lenders choose to give us write-offs?

This tone of defeat gets on my wick. The EU need to find a bloody way to cancel the banking debt. It was private debt!
We need to keep hounding our politicians on this so that they in turn hound the EU and if needs be, we need to threaten default. We showed them our hand when we incorporated private debt into citizen debt but we did it to avert contagion etc. That threat has passed, time to do a deal. Only a strong government with strong leaders can achieve this.

The EU tune is changing but not quick enough, Barroso last month;

Most significantly, the outgoing European Commission president will say that the “spirit” as well as letter of the infamous June 2012 agreement should be fully respected, which pledged to break the link between banking and sovereign debt and specifically referred to Ireland’s special case.
This statement puts him directly at odds with his suggestion in December (though not explicitly said) that Ireland is unlikely to get further retroactive debt relief for its banks.

flutered

Foxhound38 wrote: »

The big question is: how?

Why would they write off our debt? What possible reason could they have for doing so?

who would kill the goose that lays a golden egg, no bankers are going to refuse money, it is not unlike a bdsm scene, the bankers surrounding the room as nonan and howlin whisper to each other the bankers bet amounst themselves on what the next punishment the hogtied recipent ireland wriggling in a hoepless attempt to escape will have to endure, while noonans and howlins buddy keep georging themselvesat the trough.

Foxhound38

Muise... wrote: »

Some Triple A Golden Maverick, I suspect.

I thought they changed their name to Stop the Water Tax - Socialist Party now? :pac:

Muise...

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I thought they changed their name to Stop the Water Tax - Socialist Party now? :pac:

I was hoping that was Waterford Whispers. :eek:

Kill me now Lloyd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mZ39dn_P4s

Foxhound38

Spring Onion wrote: »

This tone of defeat gets on my wick. The EU need to find a bloody way to cancel the banking debt. It was private debt!
We need to keep hounding our politicians on this so that they in turn hound the EU and if needs be, we need to threaten default. We showed them our hand when we incorporated private debt into citizen debt but we did it to avert contagion etc. That threat has passed, time to do a deal. Only a strong government with strong leaders can achieve this.

The EU tune is changing but not quick enough, Barroso last month;

Most significantly, the outgoing European Commission president will say that the “spirit” as well as letter of the infamous June 2012 agreement should be fully respected, which pledged to break the link between banking and sovereign debt and specifically referred to Ireland’s special case.
This statement puts him directly at odds with his suggestion in December (though not explicitly said) that Ireland is unlikely to get further retroactive debt relief for its banks.

They know damn well we wouldn't default because if we did the country wouldn't be able to fund itself and would collapse. Again, it would mean that we'd have to balance the books immediately - that would make todays taxes and cuts look like boom-time giveaways in comparison. Any Government that did that might as well dissolve their own party in the aftermath.

Being angry and talking tough is one thing, but we need to look at the reality of this too. We have nothing to threaten them with, they have no reason to forgive the debt - we can hound the Enda and Eamon twins, but to be honest I have no idea what they or anyone else could be doing differently in this matter. If SF or Boyd-Barrett or whoever tells you that they would get the debt written off or repudiate it, they are lying to you and taking you for a fool.

They could literally kick down the doors of the EU and demand in their biggest shouty voice that we need a debt write-off, and the simple answer would be "lol, no."

It is an unjust debt. FF signed us up to it - it's a good reason never to let them in the doors of government again. We were taken for mugs, you won't hear me contesting that. But right now, there is no viable way out of it - that's just a fact.

Birroc

Less of the loser talk people. I firmly believe we will get debt write-offs down the line but the EU will wait until Portugal/Greece have exited their bailouts and the bulk of the EU economy is thriving i.e. high growth rates. That could take 5-10 years or more.

Woodville56

Foxhound38 wrote: »

What does "facing them down" entail precisely?

Dropping the debt and balancing the budget immediately? Any idea how much more pain that would have inflicted on the Irish people than what actually happened under the bailout programme?

The bank guaruntee was stupid, but it was done and dusted before the last government left office - that was a Cowan/Lehnihan mistake.

How do you propose we maintain enough money in the coffers to continue the funding of the State without the bailouts we got?

It's been acknowledged long since by fairly high ranking Eurocrats in Brussels that Ireland got a raw deal from Europe over the banking fiasco, the ECB threatened Minister Noonan same as Trichet & co threatened and bullied Brian Lenehan and the bould Enda hangs out with Frau Merkel on the eve of the general election with the promise of better days, bullied & cajoled in equal measure it seems !
Much easier for Enda & Co to play cutback & taxation hardball with a suppliant and beggared electorate at home than tackle the vested interests in Europe or displease his European "allies" . I voted for the FG/Labour combination at the last election but totally disillusioned and disappointed with their performance at this stage and sadly, from what's on show to date, nothing to shout about on the opposition benches now either ! Will probably hibernate until the upcoming election storm passes over !

KyussBishop

Foxhound38 wrote: »

The big question is: how?

Why would they write off our debt? What possible reason could they have for doing so?

They have to, because it is unsustainable, and will blow up eventually - it's more a matter of 'if', not 'when':
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/10548104/IMF-paper-warns-of-savings-tax-and-mass-write-offs-as-Wests-debt-hits-200-year-high.html

KyussBishop

Spring Onion wrote: »

This tone of defeat gets on my wick. The EU need to find a bloody way to cancel the banking debt. It was private debt!
...

It's actually ridiculously easy for the ECB to cancel it, the only hard part is getting Europe (including Germany) to agree to it - that's the impossible bit.

tomwaterford

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Would you rather some sabre-rattling and the same end result?

There's certainly valid criticisms to be made of the current Government, bank guarantees aren't one of them though.

could they not just cancel the gauntee like??
if Europe wants to save the banks...let them...:pac:

Markcheese

tomwaterford wrote: »

could they not just cancel the gauntee like??
if Europe wants to save the banks...let them...:pac:

Well you could just get in your time machine and go back to 08 , or even better go back to 2000/2001 and tell the public about the evils of inflationary spending and rampant property speculation,(but they'd still vote FF)

The Th!ng

And let us not forget FG\Labour's treacherous intent to sell off the timber rights of our national forests. Gone with the stroke of a pen were it not for the public outcry. They should hang their heads in shame.

tomwaterford

Markcheese wrote: »

Well you could just get in your time machine and go back to 08 , or even better go back to 2000/2001 and tell the public about the evils of inflationary spending and rampant property speculation,(but they'd still vote FF)

that would be good...it was great craic while it lasted though:pac:

that being said at time of bailout...Ireland entered in negosiations in a position of relative strength-being funded for 6+ months...Europe bonds starting to rise going out of control
Europe banks were in risk of ''contagian''...if Ireland had of gone to them and said if you want to save them...why don't you
Ireland could have held out longer than Europe....put it another way Europe needed to save the banks more than Ireland

Ireland should build its economy to a position of relaticve strength and withdraw from the euro...as Europe is far from Irelands friends...I would go a long way before thrusting them to act in Irelands favour ever again

KyussBishop

The Th!ng wrote: »

And let us not forget FG\Labour's treacherous intent to sell off the timber rights of our national forests. Gone with the stroke of a pen were it not for the public outcry. They should hang their heads in shame.

Haha, yea - and this was to a fund/group that Bertie was heading too; that was ridiculous.

Woodville56

The Th!ng wrote: »

And let us not forget FG\Labour's treacherous intent to sell off the timber rights of our national forests. Gone with the stroke of a pen were it not for the public outcry. They should hang their heads in shame.

Also, the FG MEP's voted at the EU against a proposed moratorium on fracking last year! So when their agents come looking for votes this time around it gonna be "Frack off" time !!

Gringo180

Just a question about our puppet king. Whats his salary compared to his European counterparts?

Busted Flat.

Tail Docker wrote: »

Yes, but then Kenny was summoned and sat down and informed that he would have his balls in his mouth if he sought to renege pretty much literally. I don't forgive his spinelessness - he should have hard-balled it - but I do understand why he did what he did. Still makes him a gutless wonder though. Nothing new there.

To do that you must have balls in the first place.