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Ballymurpy massacre.

13

Comments

  • #62
    moxin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Politically, SF have far more to lose than any British politician.

    The British authorities are far bigger than an Irish political party and have far more to lose.


  • #63
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It's like 90% of Sinn Fein rhetoric, they can say it safe in the knowledge it will never happen, but it keeps the party faithful on board.

    You're some man for the conspiracy theories. Sure the other day you were claiming he got himself arrested as a publicity stunt.

    You're like a caricature of yourself at this stage.


  • #64
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Seaneh wrote: »
    And less to lose collectively than the British authorities.

    Do you mean "them"?

    Maybe SF could start the ball rolling if they are that eager for reconciliation?


  • #65
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Seaneh wrote: »
    You're some man for the conspiracy theories. Sure the other day you were claiming he got himself arrested as a publicity stunt.

    You're like a caricature of yourself at this stage.

    Aah, the party faithful, they believe anything.


  • #66
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Aah, the party faithful, they believe anything.

    I'm not a member of any party, try again there Frederick.


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  • #67
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,481 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    All sides will have a lot to lose. The IRA, the British government, the Loyalist paramilitaries, Sinn Fein, even some Unionist politicians I'd imagine.

    I can never understand when one side or the other tries to claim the moral high ground on these matters.

    In reality the moral high ground lies empty in Northern Ireland.


  • #68
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    Can people PLEASE stop acting like there is a hierarchy of victims?

    Unfortunately there is a hierarchy.

    More below.
    CAIN Web Service
    The Damien Walsh Memorial Lecture by Roy Greenslade, 4 August 1998

    I soon discovered that different standards have been applied in the reporting of deaths throughout the troubles, and it emerged that there has been what I've since called a "hierarchy of death." This clearly discernible pattern has to be seen in the context of contemporaneous political situations, but that, if anything, tends to reinforce the theory. So how does it run?

    In the first rank - getting the most prominent coverage - are British people killed in Britain. In Warrington this was compounded by the tender years of the victims. But it's always been the case that violence, or even the threat of violence in Britain, is greeted with huge headlines.

    In the second rank are members of the security forces, whether army or RUC. These murders have usually been reported on front pages and have generated leading articles and follow-up features.

    Sometimes prison officers have been included in the second rank. Generally, though, they've slipped into the third category. In this third rank are the civilian victims of republicans.

    In the fourth rank are members of the IRA, or Sinn Fein, killed by the security forces.

    And, finally, in the fifth rank, are the victims of loyalist paramilitaries, whether they are Catholics, Protestants, IRA members or innocent passers-by.

    cain.ulst.ac.uk


  • #69
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Unfortunately there is a hierarchy.

    More below.

    Lecture given by the same Roy Greenslade who put up the surety for John Downey recently?


  • #70
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Lecture given by the same Roy Greenslade who put up the surety for John Downey recently?

    I was unaware of that but what has it got to do with what he has to say about a victim hierarchy in 1998?


  • #71
    Worksforyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Worksforyou


    Wait what's this, oh a British army massacre. It's time for the all sides done bad line I suppose. :rolleyes:


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  • #72
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Unfortunately there is a hierarchy.

    ...in media reporting 16 years ago.

    What does that have to do with present day inquiries?


  • #73
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    I was unaware of that but what has it got to do with what he has to say about a victim hierarchy in 1998?

    Quoting an an phoblacht journalist, regular contributor to Sinn Fein rallies and friend of Pat Doherty as proof is a bit like using the bible to confirm the existence of god.

    From my memory, single deaths, regardless of who committed the act, received minimal reporting, whereas larger acts grabbed the headlines. Loughinisland received huge coverage in the UK, for example.


  • #74
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Quoting an an phoblacht journalist, regular contributor to Sinn Fein rallies and friend of Pat Doherty as proof is a bit like using the bible to confirm the existence of god.

    It's not really.
    From my memory, single deaths, regardless of who committed the act, received minimal reporting, whereas larger acts grabbed the headlines. Loughinisland received huge coverage in the UK, for example.

    Large acts always grabbed headlines. I was highlighting that there is evidence that the press tended to focus on particular deaths as more worthy of reporting.


  • #75
    moxin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    ...in media reporting 16 years ago.

    What does that have to do with present day inquiries?

    Masserene got widespread UK coverage. Around the same time a Nationalist got kicked to death by a loyalist mob in Coleraine, no widespread coverage at all.


  • #76
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    It's not really.

    Large acts always grabbed headlines. I was highlighting that there is evidence that the press tended to focus on particular deaths as more worthy of reporting.

    Yes, yes it is.

    The press always highlight some murders but not others. The murder of Jamie Bulger was a major news story in the US for weeks, yet the bombing of Warrington at the same time didn't even make the front pages.The press pick and choose using their own warped idea of what is newsworthy.

    In your example, you've quoted a republican, giving a lecture dedicated to a victim of loyalist violence and taken it as gospel. There will be a large amount of playing to the gallery here and whilst I wouldnt dispute that there was a hierarchy in reporting, I would dispute it is as clear cut or blatantly biased as you claim.


  • #77
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    moxin wrote: »
    Masserene got widespread UK coverage. Around the same time a Nationalist got kicked to death by a loyalist mob in Coleraine, no widespread coverage at all.

    The ramifications of a nationalist being killed by a group of thugs is somewhat different to an attack on an army barracks.


  • #78
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I would dispute it is as clear cut or blatantly biased as you claim.

    I'm not saying it was blatantly biased all I'm saying is that the press didn't treat victims equally and there probably is a degree of inevitability about it.

    Some victims, it appears, were more worthy of outrage than others. I'm not saying this phenomenon was unique to the British press either. Jerry McCabe and Jean McConville come to mind in the context of this state (that's completely ignoring the whole Section 31 chilling effect).

    I guess you could call it 'manufacturing outrage'.


  • #79
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    And just for the record they did not kill 6 Garda. Three were killed by the INLA the IRA killed two & one was killed by a independent.


  • #80
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    I'm not saying it was blatantly biased all I'm saying is that the press didn't treat victims equally and there probably is a degree of inevitability about it.

    Some victims, it appears, were more worthy of outrage than others. I'm not saying this phenomenon was unique to the British press either. Jerry McCabe and Jean McConville come to mind in the context of this state (that's completely ignoring the whole Section 31 chilling effect).

    I guess you could call it 'manufacturing outrage'.

    If Jerry McCabe was in the RUC, or the Metropolitan police, his killers would have been freed much earlier. The Irish press managed to create enough outrage their release would have been politically difficult for the government. That doesn't excuse Sinn Fein for treating them as heroes though.


  • #81
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If Jerry McCabe was in the RUC, or the Metropolitan police, his killers would have been freed much earlier. The Irish press managed to create enough outrage their release would have been politically difficult for the government.

    Absolutely. Alliance called out the IRGov on their double standards when it came to this issue.


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  • #82
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Absolutely. Alliance called out the IRGov on their double standards when it came to this issue.

    Has anyone watched Peter Taylors 1993 documentary "The Provisionals". Dublin actually had plans to invade & conqeur the North. They were giving money to "defense committees" that was going straight into the hands of IRA commandos. The hypocrisy of the Free State is laughable.


  • #83
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Dublin actually had plans to invade & conqeur the North.

    Invade? Maybe.
    Conquer? Not a hope.


  • #84
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Invade? Maybe.
    Conquer? Not a hope.

    According to the people interviewed that was the plan.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtCPjynI2yI


  • #85
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,008 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    if dublin had invaded the north britain would have invaded and the BA would have slaughtered probably the majority of the population

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #86
    mylefttesticle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭mylefttesticle


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Invade? Maybe.
    Conquer? Not a hope.

    Neither.

    It was to defend the nationalist community who only had the IRA to defend them in some areas, it was a case of either the Irish army go into defend which would have been bad news for everyone on this Island or the lesser of it was to give arms to the IRA.

    It was the right decision at the time.


  • #87
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,059 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    There was something on TV3 about this a few year ago. "If Lynch had invaded" or something similar.

    Basically highlighted some of the worst civil rights abuses, and 'revealed' that Lynch had considered some kind of military action to protect Catholics from this abuse.

    The rest was a speculation on how this military action might have panned out, with a range of Irish and British military figures (probably ex-military at that stage) explaining how the Irish would have eventually been completely defeated.


  • #88
    whatsthetime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭whatsthetime


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Can a person with any compassion stand over this and still retain her respectability.

    BY DAVID YOUNG – 30 APRIL 2014

    Families of those shot dead during an Army operation in west Belfast are considering a legal challenge against a Government decision to reject an independent re-examination of the killings.
    BY DAVID YOUNG – 30 APRIL 2014

    As with Bloody Sunday in Londonderry six months later, members of the Parachute Regiment were involved in the shootings in Ballymurphy.
    If you wear a uniform you can get away with murder.
    They did the same in Iraq and Afghanistan. the law suites are only starting.

    The BA are always getting away with murder.


  • #89
    whatsthetime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭whatsthetime


    Gatling wrote: »
    The IRA murdered 620-640

    Including 6 Gardai and one member of the our defence forces ,

    I'd be happy to see the killers of our gardai punished first

    As far as I am aware the IRA is not a suspect in this war crime!!


  • #90
    whatsthetime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭whatsthetime


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The ramifications of a nationalist being killed by a group of thugs is somewhat different to an attack on an army barracks.

    So someone getting killed by thugs is different to thugs getting killed by someone?


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  • #91
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    end of the road wrote: »
    if dublin had invaded the north britain would have invaded and the BA would have slaughtered probably the majority of the population
    Yes, that's exactly what the BA would have done. They would have slaughtered the majority of the population, more than 2 million people. Yep. :rolleyes:


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