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Dublin Bus - why is this happening ?

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Comments

  • #32
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    StreetLight wrote: »
    Most definitely NOT always. Try looking at the RTPI around the Docklands area on a Saturday afternoon on Route 151. Because of a lack of leeway in the running times, you'll see significant gaps in service as buses are sent short along the route.

    I should have used "in general" - you would normally make an allowance of about 5% of journey time to allow for delays.

    I agree - there are some schedules that are too tight.


  • #33
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    That's all well and good for you, but for anyone waiting along the route they could end up with a significant wait for the next bus to come along if the bus you are on operates ahead of its schedule. Every individual departure has a timetable, from which the predictive times all along the route are generated, and by not sticking to that you end up with distorted performances.


    This becomes more prevalent during school holidays, and the key to this is to have alternative summer schedules and normal schedules. That's one reason for the switch to Saturday schedules at Christmas, which would have shorter and more realistic running times, meaning that buses would not be running ahead of schedules. Where bus services are operating on a clockface service, people along the route would expect that to be maintained along the route.


    Bus services do need to be properly regulated, and to have realistic schedules. Of course buses can be delayed by unforeseen events, that's why there is always some leeway built into the schedule so that the next departure is not delayed.

    Actually the biggest problem is ****ty timetabling if traffic is lighter then everything should move a little quicker but headways should be fairly even.

    The problem is really piss poor planning, so they have buses on the same corridor timetabled all wrong so that they bunch along the route.

    Examples bus A leaves outer terminus at 12.00 bus B's terminus is 10minutes up the road and it is timetabled to leave at 12.10, so the two buses converge at around 12.15 and work in together, and then no bus for 30 minutes.
    If both buses left at 12:00 it would keep an even headway but that would require a proper timetable and people with timetabling skills not because they got the job because they are related, unfit for other work etc.

    It may also be less efficient in squeezing work out of drivers but far more efficient in actually providing a service.

    DB and the NTA need to get their fingers out, if you want timetable each stop, or certain stops , make sure those stops are fit for buses waiting for departure times, they are not impeding the progress of other buses etc, timetable properly on a corridor basis not individual routes or stfu about headways and stop trying to pass the buck to drivers to maintain headways while both organizations fail miserably to do what they should be doing.


  • #34
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but absolutely not. Buses need to work to a timetable.


    People can choose the bus that is scheduled to get them there in time. There are full schedules for every stop along the route now, and while obviously they can slip due to unforeseen events en route, buses should not (just like trains) be operating early.


    What if someone is using the journey planner to make a trip that involves one or two changes en route. If a bus is running early, that could mean that the person might be significantly inconvenienced because a bus has already gone.


    That's why I said above that the working timetables need to be realistic, and reflect the traffic conditions - therefore different summer schedules are needed that do reflect the lower traffic volumes.


    But the basic premise sticks - the schedule should be adhered to and buses should not be operating ahead of it.

    See the problem is they are not running early or ahead of schedule because there is no published schedule. There is a time to depart either terminus that is all.

    There is no time to be at any particular stop in between at least no published timetable. There is also no provision for buses to wait for times, no stops identified as safe to sit at for x amount of time.
    There is a machine (pressit box) that will tell a driver roughly where they are in relation to where the company expect them to be but it can only be viewed when the bus is at a full stop so is pretty much useless in monitoring driving. As I said before the main problem is poor standalone timetables that take no cognizance of the other routes running on the same corridor.
    This was all so supposed to addressed in network direct but still 5 years later no identified way points or timetables.


  • #35
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    See the problem is they are not running early or ahead of schedule because there is no published schedule. There is a time to depart either terminus that is all.

    There is no time to be at any particular stop in between at least no published timetable. There is also no provision for buses to wait for times, no stops identified as safe to sit at for x amount of time.
    There is a machine (pressit box) that will tell a driver roughly where they are in relation to where the company expect them to be but it can only be viewed when the bus is at a full stop so is pretty much useless in monitoring driving. As I said before the main problem is poor standalone timetables that take no cognizance of the other routes running on the same corridor.
    This was all so supposed to addressed in network direct but still 5 years later no identified way points or timetables.


    Actually that's where you're wrong.


    Go onto www.a-b.ie and click on "Find a timetable" and select a route - you will see the full timetable for each bus route with individual times for each stop. That's what the screen in your cab is monitoring you against and which drives the RTPI/AVLC. How else could the times be generated?

    I don't disagree about poor schedules, there's still a lot of work to do, and to be fair scheduling is far from an easy task given the constraints that now surround it.

    However, there's no excuse for the example quoted above where a bus arrived 15 minutes earlier than normal because it got a clear run - that simply should not happen - it just distorts any chance of a proper service.


  • #36
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Actually that's where you're wrong.

    Go onto www.a-b.ie and click on "Find a timetable" and select a route - you will see the full timetable for each bus route with individual times for each stop. That's what the screen in your cab is monitoring you against and which drives the RTPI/AVLC. How else could the times be generated?

    I don't disagree about poor schedules, there's still a lot of work to do, and to be fair scheduling is far from an easy task given the constraints that now surround it.

    However, there's no excuse for the example quoted above where a bus arrived 15 minutes earlier than normal because it got a clear run - that simply should not happen - it just distorts any chance of a proper service.

    Wellllll,in true Irish style lxf,cdebru is not quite fully wrong at all......:o

    The TfI publication is a reflection of the aspirational schedule as drawn up by the NTA after substantial study of the historic BAC schedules in place for years/decades.
    Many of these schedules are substantially out of kilter in either direction,as the City's Public Transport development never quite kept pace with the actual physical requirements of "New" Dublin...."Changing with the City" was never quite a realizable motto...;)

    In relation to en-route scheduling,what was "Supposed" to happen was a thorough survey of EACH BAC route with,from this,an agreed set of locations which would be adapted for individual regulated waits of not exceeding 2 minutes each.

    The only location which I note as having been so adapted is Stillorgan Road,where enough space to wait with a tri-axle and still safely accomodate other vehcles NOT being regulated exists.

    With the advent of Network Direct,this task became sidelined and as of now,no agreed framework exists for the safe operation of en-route regulation.

    It is also worth noting,that rather than continue with definitive time-at-stop timetabling,the increasingly preferred option abroad,a lá TfLondon is to outline the first and last service times and then "Buses every x to y mins between x hrs and y hrs"...this,when combined with RTPI displays renders the rigid timetable largely irrelevant....HOWEVER...and it's a big HOW...,as this arrangement tends to work best with frequencies far,far higher than we can,apparently,comprehend...so,danger here :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • #37
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Actually that's where you're wrong.


    Go onto www.a-b.ie and click on "Find a timetable" and select a route - you will see the full timetable for each bus route with individual times for each stop. That's what the screen in your cab is monitoring you against and which drives the RTPI/AVLC. How else could the times be generated?

    I don't disagree about poor schedules, there's still a lot of work to do, and to be fair scheduling is far from an easy task given the constraints that now surround it.

    However, there's no excuse for the example quoted above where a bus arrived 15 minutes earlier than normal because it got a clear run - that simply should not happen - it just distorts any chance of a proper service.


    Drivers are provided with one time for each journey ( except on late night cross city routes where they would have a separate city center time. That is the departure time for the terminus.

    That is all they have they are not asked to stop at stops where no one wants to board or alight and wait for any particular time.

    So if a bus is 15 minutes ahead of a schedule the driver has never been asked to keep the bus is not ahead of schedule there is no schedule. There are "rough" guides as to were the company expect the bus to be but they again are not given to the driver.

    As I said if the NTA want buses to run to a schedule first you have to actually say what that schedule is and second you have to provide places for buses to wait should they find themselves ahead of that schedule neither has been done.

    15 minutes up is nothing in light traffic example between 2 city center stops the pressit gives 10 minutes at times with little traffic a couple of green lights, light passenger load you could do that in 90 seconds and have gained 8 and half minutes that's on one stop. Now you could do it the following week and it could take you 12 minutes same time of day. Without proper bus priority infrastructure you can't accurately give a stop to stop schedule it just doesn't work.


  • #38
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Guys just to make this clear, these were NOT drawn up by the NTA.

    They were and are prepared by Dublin Bus schedulers to facilitate the internal AVLC system which then in turn facilitates the RTPI for the customer.

    While not given physically out to drivers, and that the only physical schedule are the driver boards with the departure times/handover points, they are reflected by the screen in your cab, which you can check when stopped at any stage.

    I take your point on proper locations to be regulated, which frankly comes under the point that I've made before, which is a full audit of every bus stop on the network.

    While I appreciate that there will inevitably be variances for one reason or another, which will in general be negative, I think that 15 minutes earlier than the predictive schedule is pushing it.


  • #39
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Guys just to make this clear, these were NOT drawn up by the NTA.

    They were and are prepared by Dublin Bus schedulers to facilitate the internal AVLC system which then in turn facilitates the RTPI for the customer.

    While not given physically out to drivers, and that the only physical schedule are the driver boards with the departure times/handover points, they are reflected by the screen in your cab, which you can check when stopped at any stage.

    While I appreciate that there will inevitably be variances for one reason or another, which will in general be negative, I think that 15 minutes earlier than the predictive schedule is pushing it.



    First of all who drew them up is irrelevant to me second, they are not given to drivers ever, there is a box on the bus that displays only when fully stopped and only when positive, as you can't see it till you stop and if you are getting a good run you aren't stopping as much it is largely worthless and there is no agreement on its use either way. And lastly as the company and the NTA still haven't provided any agreed safe place in which to wait out any time it is a cart but still no sign of any horse.


  • #40
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    First of all who drew them up is irrelevant to me second, they are not given to drivers ever, there is a box on the bus that displays only when fully stopped and only when positive, as you can't see it till you stop and if you are getting a good run you aren't stopping as much it is largely worthless and there is no agreement on its use either way. And lastly as the company and the NTA still haven't provided any agreed safe place in which to wait out any time it is a cart but still no sign of any horse.


    I understand all of that - but the point I am making is that all of that needs to happen if the bus service is to develop into a proper network.


  • #41
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I understand all of that - but the point I am making is that all of that needs to happen if the bus service is to develop into a proper network.

    No that is not what you said " you said that there is a schedule for each stop and it should be adhered to"

    That is wholly incorrect there is NO schedule for every stop, there are rough guidelines but they are not provided to drivers in any usable way.
    You never mentioned any of that nor that waypoints still havn't been provided, etc etc.

    All that stuff may happen in the future but it doesn't exist now and a lot of things need to be done to get there including proper time ...


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  • #42
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    No that is not what you said " you said that there is a schedule for each stop and it should be adhered to"

    That is wholly incorrect there is NO schedule for every stop, there are rough guidelines but they are not provided to drivers in any usable way.
    You never mentioned any of that nor that waypoints still havn't been provided, etc etc.

    All that stuff may happen in the future but it doesn't exist now and a lot of things need to be done to get there including proper timetables, waypoints, safe stopping areas, bus priority measures etc etc.



    Well I would argue that it is a schedule. It may not be on your boards, but it is the planned schedule. Otherwise the predictive times and journey planner are meaningless.

    In the meantime, you may wish to edit your post as you've included a copy & paste that I'm not sure should be there (which I've omitted here).


  • #43
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well I would argue that it is a schedule. It may not be on your boards, but it is the planned schedule. Otherwise the predictive times and journey planner are meaningless.


    It is only a schedule if it is supplied to the drivers and they are asked to adhere to it and provided with the means to adhere to it. As none as that has not happened it is not a schedule it is indicative of average journey times that is all.


  • #44
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,721 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cdebru wrote: »
    It is only a schedule if it is supplied to the drivers and they are asked to adhere to it and provided with the means to adhere to it. As none as that has not happened it is not a schedule it is indicative of average journey times that is all.



    OK - I'm not going to argue with you as it is clearly pointless.


  • #45
    PadelCreekMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 ✭PadelCreekMan


    The Transport for ireland app or the Dublin bus app will let you know if your bus is earlier than you expect. In the case of the 46a I wouldn't be too worried. They're running every 10 mins. You won't be that inconvenienced if you miss the exact bus. There will be another along very shortly. Probably running early too.


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