Dublin Bus - why is this happening ?

omri

Just thought I'd put it here to see what other thinks.

Seen three busses 46A today going in a little convoy. One was half full the other two were empty-ish. It seems like a serious waste of money and resources having those three buses going one after another where all of them would stop at the same bus stops.

Stumbled at them of the N11 towards Deansgrange.

Devilman40k

omri wrote: »

Just thought I'd put it here to see what other thinks.

Seen three busses 46A today going in a little convoy. One was half full the other two were empty-ish. It seems like a serious waste of money and resources having those three buses going one after another where all of them would stop at the same bus stops.

Stumbled at them of the N11 towards Deansgrange.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching

Always happens with services with high frequency, or if something holds up one bus and the rest catch up. Solving it has always been a problem for Dublin Bus

coylemj

omri wrote: »

Seen three busses 46A today going in a little convoy. One was half full the other two were empty-ish. It seems like a serious waste of money and resources having those three buses going one after another where all of them would stop at the same bus stops.

Stumbled at them of the N11 towards Deansgrange.

They have come all the way from the Phoenix Park so they can easily get bunched or sometimes there can be a large gap between successive 46As at Deansgrange heading to Dun Laoghaire. It's down to the vagaries of the traffic in the city and delays at traffic lights which can allow the following bus to catch up.

As soon as the outbound 46A passes Donnybrook church it's full steam ahead with a QBC all the way to Foxrock Church and they often get bunched along the N11.

You have heard the saying that 'you wait all day for a bus and then three show up at once'?

AngryLips

Nothing a BRT wouldn't solve ...or a properly implemented QBC.

endacl

It's because of knobs who don't have their fare ready. The same knobs who stand in the middle of escalators.

coylemj

endacl wrote: »

The same knobs who stand in the middle of escalators.

And when they reach the top or bottom they stop dead in their tracks deciding what to do next so the people following them off the escalator have to walk around them.

endacl

coylemj wrote: »

And when they reach the top or bottom they stop dead in their tracks deciding what to do next so the people following them off the escalator have to walk around them.

Yep. That's them.

Lapin

They have escalators on buses now ?

punisher5112

It's a 10 minute service and even less at certain times and as said above it has a lot to do with these matters,

Traffic, light seqence, slow passenger fumbling to get fare in turn holding everyone up, then buggies, having to wait to let elderly passengers sit as to not make them fall over with sudden movements of the bus, picking up wheelcahir users as ramp is slow, large passeger numbers encountered by 1st bus the 2nd catches up as the one in front has cleared a lot.

If they were to stop a bus to allow gaps then duties would have to be changed and running times increased as they do call out especially while the schools were off that the buses were ahead of time so what can happen then is hold back and then turn a corner and become real busy and encounter traffic or a crash or any amount of different things that could happen.

macroman

When I was in the training school there was a big emphasis on "even headway", which is keeping an even gap between buses on the schedule. There is a screen in the cab with a display of how the bus is running, if it's on time or if it's late. But it's often difficult to maintain even headway - it's easy to run on time on a Sunday night, but impossible on a Friday afternoon before a bank holiday!

Having a gap in the service such as the bus in front of me getting a clear run and perhaps running a bit early means that there are more people at stops for me to pickup - there could now be more leap cards with no credit, more passengers who wait until they're on the bus to root out their coins, more tourists with notes, more buggies to be folded etc. All adding to the delay and widening the gap.

For example say I'm now 5 minutes late, and the following bus has fewer passengers onboard and fewer to pickup, he could now be 3 mins ahead (but not early as he hasn't reached a timing point). The closer to the city the tighter the gap becomes as I may have to stop to drop and pickup at every stop whereas he only has to stop for dropping off only. I could now be 8 mins late, and the bus behind could have caught and overtaken me! With the traffic around Westmoreland Street, D'Olier Street, College Green, Dame Street areas it very easy for the buses to bunch up and run together.

Dublin Bus can do very little to prevent this as it's unavoidable and difficult to predict - every driver drives different, every journey is different, traffic and passenger situations constantly change.

highdef

I very very rarely travel by bus and I never know how much the fare will be. Before boarding, I try to have as denominations of coins split up in my hand so I can quickly gather the required fare after stating my destination to the driver and receiving the cost of travel. However, I will always be one of those who will delay others slightly because I don't have the correct fare ready despite trying my best to have the correct fare ready ASAP.

wahesh32

highdef wrote: »

I very very rarely travel by bus and I never know how much the fare will be. Before boarding, I try to have as denominations of coins split up in my hand so I can quickly gather the required fare after stating my destination to the driver and receiving the cost of travel. However, I will always be one of those who will delay others slightly because I don't have the correct fare ready despite trying my best to have the correct fare ready ASAP.

I know figuring out the fares can be a bit difficult, but there is a fare calculator on the dublin bus app.

coylemj

highdef wrote: »

I very very rarely travel by bus and I never know how much the fare will be.

I travel by bus a few times a week but do different journeys so am not always sure what the exact fare will be.

highdef wrote: »

Before boarding, I try to have as denominations of coins split up in my hand so I can quickly gather the required fare after stating my destination to the driver and receiving the cost of travel. However, I will always be one of those who will delay others slightly because I don't have the correct fare ready despite trying my best to have the correct fare ready ASAP.

You would be one of the quicker cash customers in that case. An awful lot of people wait until they are actually standing at the driver before they dig into their pocket/handbag to extract their wallet/purse after which they start fumbling with coins.

JimsAlterEgo

could they not hold a bus at a stop for a few minutes, or is that too sensible an idea for them to think of :pac:

ArmaniJeanss

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

could they not hold a bus at a stop for a few minutes, or is that too sensible an idea for them to think of :pac:

You might think it sensible, the passengers on board might think it a completely terrible ideal.

Personally I love those rare few commutes home each year where everything falls into place - everyone has prepaid tickets, the bus binks every traffic light, no other traffic impedes the bus, and I end up getting home 15 minutes earlier than normal. For the bus to artificially stop on such a day because 'its going too quick' would disappoint me.

bumper234

coylemj wrote: »

And when they reach the top or bottom they stop dead in their tracks deciding what to do next so the people following them off the escalator have to walk around them.

I find a quick shoulder bump helps them to wake up and keep moving.

Hilly Bill

Saw something about London buses on the telly a few weeks ago, and it said that they have a display in the cab telling them how close to the bus in front they are , and if they get too close they have to slow down and cant finish the route ahead of the bus that left earlier. It looked like they dont have the leapfrogging of buses like they do here.

highdef

I don't have access to apps when I am on the move. I will check online beforehand on my laptop if I am planning the journey but sometimes have an unplanned bus journey, in which case I have no idea what the fare will be.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You might think it sensible, the passengers on board might think it a completely terrible ideal.

Personally I love those rare few commutes home each year where everything falls into place - everyone has prepaid tickets, the bus binks every traffic light, no other traffic impedes the bus, and I end up getting home 15 minutes earlier than normal. For the bus to artificially stop on such a day because 'its going too quick' would disappoint me.

That's all well and good for you, but for anyone waiting along the route they could end up with a significant wait for the next bus to come along if the bus you are on operates ahead of its schedule. Every individual departure has a timetable, from which the predictive times all along the route are generated, and by not sticking to that you end up with distorted performances.


This becomes more prevalent during school holidays, and the key to this is to have alternative summer schedules and normal schedules. That's one reason for the switch to Saturday schedules at Christmas, which would have shorter and more realistic running times, meaning that buses would not be running ahead of schedules. Where bus services are operating on a clockface service, people along the route would expect that to be maintained along the route.


Bus services do need to be properly regulated, and to have realistic schedules. Of course buses can be delayed by unforeseen events, that's why there is always some leeway built into the schedule so that the next departure is not delayed.

Banjoxed

AngryLips wrote: »

Nothing a BRT wouldn't solve ...or a properly implemented QBC.

The only possible way any bus corridor can work in Dublin is to have fully dedicated busways, not "QBCs" that get nobbled by every interest group going, be it private motorists, taxis, bicycles or motorbikes. So it won't happen.

schemingbohemia

highdef wrote: »

I don't have access to apps when I am on the move. I will check online beforehand on my laptop if I am planning the journey but sometimes have an unplanned bus journey, in which case I have no idea what the fare will be.

Have you heard of the Leap Card? www.leapcard.ie

ArmaniJeanss

lxflyer wrote: »

That's all well and good for you, but for anyone waiting along the route they could end up with a significant wait for the next bus to come along if the bus you are on operates ahead of its schedule.

That's much less of an issue now that we have rtpi, people midway along a bus route should be using this rather than some notional idea that the bus should arrive at xx:20 and leave absolutely no earlier than xx:22 from their intermediate stop.

highdef

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Have you heard of the Leap Card? www.leapcard.ie

In fairness, I only use the bus a handful of times a year at most so I really don't think it's worth the hassle, in my case:

"A €5 fully refundable deposit is charged for Adult Leap Cards. When buying your Leap Card you must also top it up with a minimum of €5 Travel Credit."

I would probably not even spend that much on bus travel in a year so I don't consider it cost effective and that's presuming that there are no administration charges to be paid on the leap card.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That's much less of an issue now that we have rtpi, people midway along a bus route should be using this rather than some notional idea that the bus should arrive at xx:20 and leave absolutely no earlier than xx:22 from their intermediate stop.

I'm sorry, but absolutely not. Buses need to work to a timetable.


People can choose the bus that is scheduled to get them there in time. There are full schedules for every stop along the route now, and while obviously they can slip due to unforeseen events en route, buses should not (just like trains) be operating early.


What if someone is using the journey planner to make a trip that involves one or two changes en route. If a bus is running early, that could mean that the person might be significantly inconvenienced because a bus has already gone.


That's why I said above that the working timetables need to be realistic, and reflect the traffic conditions - therefore different summer schedules are needed that do reflect the lower traffic volumes.


But the basic premise sticks - the schedule should be adhered to and buses should not be operating ahead of it.

Losty Dublin

highdef wrote: »

In fairness, I only use the bus a handful of times a year at most so I really don't think it's worth the hassle, in my case:

"A €5 fully refundable deposit is charged for Adult Leap Cards. When buying your Leap Card you must also top it up with a minimum of €5 Travel Credit."

I would probably not even spend that much on bus travel in a year so I don't consider it cost effective and that's presuming that there are no administration charges to be paid on the leap card.

If you spend no more than €10 a year means that you make at most, 6 bus journeys a year. Leaps also valid on Dublin commuter rail trips, Matthews Coaches, Swords Express, Wexford Coach, Bus Eireann's Dublin and Cork services and the Luas. I make very few trips on these other operators as well (I use a annual Dublin Bus Pass.) yet I've easily saved €10 by availing of the lower Leap fares they offer.

ArmaniJeanss

lxflyer wrote: »

But the basic premise sticks - the schedule should be adhered to and buses should not be operating ahead of it.

I understand your logic of needing to maintain a schedule.
What you fail to understand (I think) is how much people abhor the thought of waiting on a stopped bus for some overall system reason.
Whether its sitting for 10 minutes waiting for a driver change, or a deliberately stopped bus because its ahead of schedule doesn't matter, either way its the sort of stuff which drives customers away.

You are trying to compare buses to trains - everyone accepts that a train must stop at a station regardless of whether anyone wants to get off/on, hence its likely that a rigid timetable will be stuck to. If a bus goes four stops without anyone getting on/off then that should be regarded as a bonus, not a need to artificially pause at the next stop for five minutes.

Basic premise of Dublin Bus should be that the bus departs as per the timetable, and gets to its destination as quick as that journeys circumstances allow.
If they want to run them like trains then give us trains.

Polar101

highdef wrote: »

However, I will always be one of those who will delay others slightly because I don't have the correct fare ready despite trying my best to have the correct fare ready ASAP.

You have coins ready, so you are not the problem. It's the people who look surprised when they hear they are expected to pay a fare, and then start looking for coins hidden deep within their purses. I call them 'fare negotiators'.

Now, if Dublin bus had a simple fare structure, wouldn't that be handy.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I understand your logic of needing to maintain a schedule.
What you fail to understand (I think) is how much people abhor the thought of waiting on a stopped bus for some overall system reason.
Whether its sitting for 10 minutes waiting for a driver change, or a deliberately stopped bus because its ahead of schedule doesn't matter, either way its the sort of stuff which drives customers away.

You are trying to compare buses to trains - everyone accepts that a train must stop at a station regardless of whether anyone wants to get off/on, hence its likely that a rigid timetable will be stuck to. If a bus goes four stops without anyone getting on/off then that should be regarded as a bonus, not a need to artificially pause at the next stop for five minutes.

Basic premise of Dublin Bus should be that the bus departs as per the timetable, and gets to its destination as quick as that journeys circumstances allow.
If they want to run them like trains then give us trains.

I fully understand that - but the problem is that Dublin Bus have for years run their services with departure times only.


Every other bus company runs with a full timetable along the route. That is what the accepted best practice is.


Therefore you look at the timetable, choose the bus that gets you to where you want to go at the time you want, rather than having haphazard journey times.


The timetables need to be realistic but at the same time if we are ever going to have a proper network, with connecting services, you will have to accept that timetables will have to be adhered to all along the route.

Losty Dublin

Polar101 wrote: »

You have coins ready, so you are not the problem. It's the people who look surprised when they hear they are expected to pay a fare, and then start looking for coins hidden deep within their purses. I call them 'fare negotiators'.

Now, if Dublin bus had a simple fare structure, wouldn't that be handy.

It would indeed and for a while it was.

Back in 2002, Dublin Bus decided to go for flat fare with the introduction of the Euro. The Department of Transport told them to withdraw this arrangement and revert to the old system of multi based fares.

One suspects that he who called time may well drive into work and use a free parking space and as such has an ignorance of bus fares and their ilk.

StreetLight

lxflyer wrote: »

that's why there is always some leeway built into the schedule so that the next departure is not delayed.

Most definitely NOT always. Try looking at the RTPI around the Docklands area on a Saturday afternoon on Route 151. Because of a lack of leeway in the running times, you'll see significant gaps in service as buses are sent short along the route.

AlekSmart

StreetLight wrote: »

Most definitely NOT always. Try looking at the RTPI around the Docklands area on a Saturday afternoon on Route 151. Because of a lack of leeway in the running times, you'll see significant gaps in service as buses are sent short along the route.

Worth pointing out also that TfL in London practice active route management to a FAR higher degree than Dublin.

It would not be unusual in Central London terms to be unceremoniously turned out of a bus at some point en-route in order to faciliate the bus running out-of-service to regain it's timetabled location.

You would NEVER find a London service continuing in drop-off only mode to "speed things up"...It's either IN Service or it's NOT In Service.

What Dublin Bus's system lacks,is agreed short-working destinations which could allow up to 75% of a route to be served where presently only a maximum of 50% is possible.

The point is that EVERY Urban Bus Network practices route management in it's own way,and Dublin's is far from unusual in it's methodology.