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Violence against women in the series. Thoughts (Show spoilers) MOD NOTE post #1

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Comments

  • #62
    Soft Falling Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭Soft Falling Rain


    I don't really have a problem with what was shown in Crasters in the last episode. I know people are saying a lot of it could have gone unseen, but there's nothing subtle about what these guys are. They are absolutely the worst aspects of humanity and indeed, what happened last night reminded us of the worst aspects of the Nights Watch.

    Many of these men are murderers and rapists. They are brutal and horrifically blunt in their actions. These guys simply couldn't give a bollox, that's why they raped women in plain sight of each other rather than drag them away to a room.

    They aren't afraid of what they are, and neither is the show. They are scum of the highest order, and that's exactly what we were unapologetically shown.


  • #63
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,655 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    I'm offended they cut Strong Belwas from the TV show. His fight against the champion in the previous episode was far better in the book.


  • #64
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    I wasn't offended at all by last nights episode. It's a fictional depiction of a place where life is pretty **** for everyone, especially women. I don't understand why rape is somehow worse than the beheadings, castrations, torture etc that are also frequently shown. I found Theons torture far more uncomfortable to watch. I wonder what the reaction would have been if that had happened to a female character?


  • #65
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    It was the bit at the end with the baby that really freaked me out :D


  • #66
    jebidiah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭jebidiah


    I have to say that the scene in crasters was a low point for me. It was sick. Totally unnecessary and to be honest gruesome. I thought the guy making the speech was enough to get the point of whats going on there... To have that guy in the back ground litterally, violently raping a woman, was totally unnecessary. I've read the books, understand the "realities of the adopted time line" excuse that is being waved about, but I still think the shows producers went too far.

    That scene in comparison to Jaime and Cersei. Jaime was trying to force Cersei to "make love" with him. (I still think what he did was rape, but not in his mind. He was desperately trying to be with the woman he loved. He wasn't thinking, "I'm going to rape Cersei" Regardless of his opinion of the situation it was still rape.) This scene was an atrocity to book readers and should have never existed. Im sure there have been similar scenes in other shows, where male characters have tried to force their lovers to have sex with them out of desperation or emotional strain.

    It's awful inexcusable behaviour, but it does sadly happen in real life, and a case could be made for including it in TV and film for plot development.

    Contrast that with the scene where the opening line is "rape them till their dead" which shows a woman being held down and raped for probably more than a minute in the background. It makes Jamie's scene seem tame. And I personally think there is no place for that kind of scene on TV.


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  • #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,923 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As I've said to the OP before, there are a load of sex scenes that are totally unnecessary and add nothing. Ironically it's not the ones he/she is complaining about that are these. It's the pointless ones with pointless characters that mean nothing to anything. The rape and general debauchery of men is hugely important to setting the tone of the world that is being depicted. The bi-episodic orgies in Kings Landing just so they can fill their HBO appointed quota for nudity, not so much.


  • #68
    Greta Thankful Shortcake
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Greta Thankful Shortcake


    Most of the violence in the series is fantastical "never happen now to any of us" violence. Crucifying children is horrific but you also know it's just not real. Men getting killed by melted gold or stuck through with swords is also just not real and pretty much never going to happen now in the real world.

    Rape and gang rape could happen now to anyone, which is what makes it that much more real and takes you away from fantasy land and back to real horrible possibility. Particularly if you consider actual victims may have been watching the show - I hope they did have a trigger warning on any tv stations.
    I think faith said it well in one of the episode threads
    110% agree. That scene lifted me totally out of my 'tv watching trance' and plopped me back in the real world. I couldn't settle for the rest of the episode then.

    I don't think calling it bleating, or saying "rape culture is just a feminist invention" is either insightful nor helpful when examining why we're so shocked by this, to say the least. Neither is the lazy "well sex is dirty".


  • #69
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Personally, I just don't find the extended rape and torture scenes very interesting. I watch it for the plot and character development, the dialogue and the scenery; the gore is a bore.

    This. When they cut whole interesting characters and plot lines from the original story in order to fill the time with gratuitious sex and violence it seems as if they're just appealing to the lowest common denominator.


  • #70
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Rosy Posy wrote: »
    This. When they cut whole interesting characters and plot lines from the original story in order to fill the time with gratuitious sex and violence it seems as if they're just appealing to the lowest common denominator.

    In Crasters the plot was developing while the rape and torture was going on in the background.


  • #71
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Most of the violence in the series is fantastical "never happen now to any of us" violence. Crucifying children is horrific but you also know it's just not real. Men getting killed by melted gold or stuck through with swords is also just not real and pretty much never going to happen now in the real world.

    Rape and gang rape could happen now to anyone, which is what makes it that much more real and takes you away from fantasy land and back to real horrible possibility.

    But people get acid thrown in their face, as happened recently in England. People are also stabbed all the time. If you're going to contextualise the violence commited to men in GoT as not being real because of the circumstances, you have to do the same with the women.


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  • #72
    Greta Thankful Shortcake
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Greta Thankful Shortcake


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    But people get acid thrown in their face, as happened recently in England. People are also stabbed all the time. If you're going to contextualise the violence commited to men in GoT as not being real because of the circumstances, you have to do the same with the women.

    ...what


  • #73
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    bluewolf wrote: »
    ...what

    your argument is along the lines of "Men getting...stuck through with swords is also just not real"

    The Triads in Dublin have been involved with attacks using machetes and swords. To quote the Herald:
    "In the early-morning attack, two men were left seriously wounded, one of them with a near-severed leg.
    The incident occurred just before 2am on October 26 and involved a gang of six men armed with weapons that included knives, a hammer and a machete or sword."
    http://www.herald.ie/news/detectives-launch-huge-crackdown-on-triad-gangs-29196810.html

    This kind of violence against men is real. We understand that it is contextualised within the bounds of the fictional world of Westeros and this is the culture and times they live in. The same is true of the rape and violence against women.


  • #74
    Greta Thankful Shortcake
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Greta Thankful Shortcake


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    your argument is along the lines of "Men getting...stuck through with swords is also just not real"

    The Triads in Dublin have been involved with attacks using machetes and swords. To quote the Herald:
    "In the early-morning attack, two men were left seriously wounded, one of them with a near-severed leg.
    The incident occurred just before 2am on October 26 and involved a gang of six men armed with weapons that included knives, a hammer and a machete or sword."
    http://www.herald.ie/news/detectives-launch-huge-crackdown-on-triad-gangs-29196810.html

    This kind of violence against men is real. We understand that it is contextualised within the bounds of the fictional world of Westeros and this is the culture and times they live in. The same is true of the rape and violence against women.


    If someone is in fear of getting attacked with a knife, has been attacked with a knife, or knows someone who has, and then reacts in shock at seeing it very explicitly shown on screen, that would also be understandable. I don't think anyone would call them bleating or playing the victim for it either.
    For the most part, the violence shown on this show is not everyday violence in a modern setting.
    Knowing that it's fiction intellectually is one thing, but being shocked at actually seeing it because it's realistic is another.
    There is no male/female issue here as far as I'm concerned, any male rape victim may well have been disturbed by that scene as well. Or if they'd been as explicit about showing it happening to theon


  • #75
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    bluewolf wrote: »
    There is no male/female issue here as far as I'm concerned
    What are you talking about? Look at the title of the thread. No-one seems to have any issue with violence against men in the series either.


  • #76
    Greta Thankful Shortcake
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Greta Thankful Shortcake


    drumswan wrote: »
    What are you talking about? Look at the title of the thread. .

    Um, I didn't write the thread title


  • #77
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Um, I didn't write the thread title

    But that is the issue we are discussing. If, as you said, someone reacts with shock at seeing these issues they have personally dealt with, then I would suggest that GoT is not for them. As others have said, the networks displayed a warning, but in any case GoT is not for the light hearted.

    Personally, I cannot deal with some of the disgusting things on the likes of Embarrassing Bodies or hospital programmes. I don't watch them.


  • #78
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What about the violence against wolves !!

    And horses!


  • #79
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    I think if you look hard enough you'll quite likely find real world analogues for nearly every atrocity committed in the series, even if it's boiling to death by molten gold. But I think after a certain point it becomes a reductive argument and in any case it's impossible to apply that hyper-relativist level of sensitivity to every violent scene on the show. Even 'some' rape in GoT is fine, I think, because it is an aspect of the world that the characters live in and avoiding that isn't good for the fiction of that world either.

    But I agree with the bit about rape not being a gendered crime, because that's absolutely true and valid.


  • #80
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,655 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    I think people are desensitised to violence more than sexual violence. The scene wasn't that long or overly graphic.


  • #81
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    I'm somewhat reminded of a program I saw once on the standards in art. They showed a timeline of examples from one artist's catalogue. Everyone agreed it was art at the beginning and pornography at the end but people had a different point in the timeline where the line was crossed to porn.

    In much the same way, some people may think certain parts of GoT have gone over that proverbially line of decency.


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  • #82
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    I'm somewhat reminded of a program I saw once on the standards in art. They showed a timeline of examples from one artist's catalogue. Everyone agreed it was art at the beginning and pornography at the end but people had a different point in the timeline where the line was crossed to porn.

    In much the same way, some people may think certain parts of GoT have gone over that proverbially line of decency.

    Well, you cant apply objective standards to subjective appraisals.


  • #83
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    jebidiah wrote: »
    I have to say that the scene in crasters was a low point for me. It was sick. Totally unnecessary and to be honest gruesome. I thought the guy making the speech was enough to get the point of whats going on there... To have that guy in the back ground litterally, violently raping a woman, was totally unnecessary. I've read the books, understand the "realities of the adopted time line" excuse that is being waved about, but I still think the shows producers went too far.

    It came across to me as the writers using rape as a lazy shorthand to show that the deserters are despicable characters. The scene opens with Karl (their leader) drinking wine from Mormont's skull. You don't need to add anything else to convince the audience that these guys are scum. But it's as if the writers felt that somehow that might not have been enough to show the deserters in a bad light so they throw in some casual rape as well.


  • #84
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,592 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    The drinking from the skull felt far more out of place to me than the rape did.

    A bunch of criminals who've been deprived of female company while serving in what amounts to a penal colony raping the first women that are unfortunate enough to be vulnerable around them makes sense. Them going to the effort of removing and cleaning the skull of an enemy in order to drink ale from it seems less realistic...


  • #85
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    I don't think anyone is questioning the scene's realism really. It's perhaps too realistic if anything else.


  • #86
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    bluewolf wrote: »

    I don't think calling it bleating, or saying "rape culture is just a feminist invention" is either insightful nor helpful when examining why we're so shocked by this, to say the least. Neither is the lazy "well sex is dirty".

    Being shocked by it is fine. You can be shocked by anything - it depends from person to person.

    But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with showing those shocking scenes.


  • #87
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    I watched the second half of the episode again to see what all the fuss is about. I then realised I did the exact same thing I did the first time, I turned down the volume when the baby was crying. That is all that bothered me about the episode. The Karl Tanner scenes was fairly normal for GoT.


  • #88
    mayordenis
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    Like where was all this faux outrage when Craster himself had a legion of daughters that he was banging?

    Why is seeing it so much worse than it happening off screen but certainly the effects being seen quite clearly.

    Out of sight, out of mind?

    I cannot agree that this has somehow crossed a line, it's nonsense.


  • #89
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    I was more annoyed by the over the top acting and dialogue from your man drinking out of the skull in that scene; "I'm a scary, scary bad man. Look at my big mean face.".

    I get they don't have enough time to flesh out each character in such a vastly populated series, but some characters can come across as a bit too one dimensional a lot of the time.


  • #90
    Kunkka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 793 ✭✭✭Kunkka


    The first ever episode of GoT had a guy riding his sister in secret and then pushing a boy out a window.

    There have been babies murdered.

    Women giving birth to shadow babies.

    A woman being stabbed in the stomach while pregnant and the rest of her bridal party being massacred.

    O sweet summer child, if you were expecting GoT to turn in to Glee you were very much mistaken


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  • #91
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,592 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    snausages wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is questioning the scene's realism really. It's perhaps too realistic if anything else.
    Is that not what's great about ASOIAF?! It's a fantasy series shown through the lens of brutal reality.

    There's plenty of fantasy out there for those that want the really nasty stuff glossed over or blatantly ignored: Lord of the Rings, Eragon, Star Wars, The Riftwar Saga etc. This shows us the horrors of massive wars fought with blades, lances, maces and morningstars: that the nobility are often far from noble and how it's usually the innocent that suffer most.

    None of the rape scenes in this series have been particularly graphic. It's hardly been the stuff of "I Spit On Your Grave" or the torture porn Saw movies. It simply doesn't shy away from showing a medieval world in an accurate light (and throwing in some magic to add to the drama).

    What exactly is it that people are offended by? That women in the series are raped is no more implying that sexual violence is acceptable than the fact it has dragons is implying that they're real. That our society seems to consider the maiming and murder of characters less appalling than rape says there's something wrong about us imo. Are we eager to convince people who've been raped that they've suffered a fate worse than death for some reason?


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