Violence against women in the series. Thoughts (Show spoilers) MOD NOTE post #1

brevity

What they could have left out of last nights episode was

"**** 'em till their dead"

. I mean it's totally unnecessary. We know they are evil from the previous series and what we've been told about them, this shock tactics stuff will wear thin eventually.

pickarooney

Naydy wrote: »

Why no highly sexulised abuse of males added into the show? Theon is the only example I can think of, but that wasn't drawn out or shown to any extent.

It went on for about eight weeks!

Gbear

Potatoeman wrote: »

Some of the violence is equally gruesome and you could make the point it is equally unnecessary.

How is it unnecessary?

It's a faithful depiction of the books and really, a faithful depiction of the real time frame the books are set in (medieval Europe).

Why is a warts-and-all approach considered worse than having the show softened to protect people's sensibilities?

Indeed, if any show ought to discard the clichéd archetypes of chivalrous knights and damsels in distress it's this one - where characters in the universe, like Sandor Clegane, often comment on the stupid fantasies that the likes of Sansa used to cling on to and instead show us the bleak reality that most want to pretend doesn't exist.

I think there's something very wrong with how some people look at this show and the "controversial" elements in it that I think is a function of lingering backwards taboos about sex in our culture.

Sex is real. It happens. There should be no more reason to avoid it than showing people carrying swords or riding around on horses.

If you take a character like Oberyn, you'd expect to find him in a brothel and you'd expect to find naked women there.
You'd expect to first be introduced to Tyrion while he's being attended by a load of prostitutes.
You'd expect naked women to be leaving Robert Baratheon's room at any hour of the day.

If they had random women hanging around Tywin's war councils with their tits out, completely going against his character, you'd have a point.

pickarooney

Personally, I just don't find the extended rape and torture scenes very interesting. I watch it for the plot and character development, the dialogue and the scenery; the gore is a bore.

Gbear

Nerdlingr wrote: »

The original Crasters had the rape of women as well. But it was much more what was unseen. The menace and evil about the place. What happens in the shadows stays in the shadows. Women in the lofts, hidden from view. You knew craster was a dirty b*stard but you never saw him doing it out in public. It was left to your imagination to picture what happened to those women.
Now its just "How about we have this character drink from a skull, say cnut alot of the time, mock another character and all the while someone is getting raped in the background". I wasnt horrified by it I just didnt think it was neccessary.

From a practical point of view, they wanted time between the watch and Craster to progress the story. Just showing him alone, raping one of the girls wouldn't have really done anything useful, in a series that has to cram a lot in a short space of time.

From a story point of view, it wouldn't make sense for Craster to be having sex with them in front of the Watch.

On the other hand, if they show you what's happening inside Craster's now, with the mutineers there, it makes sense to show them doing various horrible things.
I don't know what purpose there is in showing the inside of Craster's at all this season but I'm sure that will become clear over the next few weeks when the situation between them and Jon comes to a head.

Naydy

pickarooney wrote: »

It went on for about eight weeks!

I was talking about the scene of him being castrated, not his imprisonment overall

Witcher

dark crystal wrote: »

Yeah, as part of the plot! I don't think anyone has an issue with sex and violence of either gender when it's part of an actual plotline.

Craster's is part of a plotline..the mutineers are evil and they're going to get what's coming to them from the Watch.

brevity

Sex is fine, no one is complaining about the threesomes etc...it's questioning whether or not the constant sexual violence towards women is necessary.

Potatoeman

Gbear wrote: »

How is it unnecessary?

It's a faithful depiction of the books and really, a faithful depiction of the real time frame the books are set in (medieval Europe).

Why is a warts-and-all approach considered worse than having the show softened to protect people's sensibilities?

Indeed, if any show ought to discard the clichéd archetypes of chivalrous knights and damsels in distress it's this one - where characters in the universe, like Sandor Clegane, often comment on the stupid fantasies that the likes of Sansa used to cling on to and instead show us the bleak reality that most want to pretend doesn't exist.

I think there's something very wrong with how some people look at this show and the "controversial" elements in it that I think is a function of lingering backwards taboos about sex in our culture.

Sex is real. It happens. There should be no more reason to avoid it than showing people carrying swords or riding around on horses.

If you take a character like Oberyn, you'd expect to find him in a brothel and you'd expect to find naked women there.
You'd expect to first be introduced to Tyrion while he's being attended by a load of prostitutes.
You'd expect naked women to be leaving Robert Baratheon's room at any hour of the day.

If they had random women hanging around Tywin's war councils with their tits out, completely going against his character, you'd have a point.

My point was that you could make the
same point about the violence. It could be less gruesome but thats the tone of the show. I dont think they should tone it down.

Sleepy

Well, let's put it this way: what's to be gained from glossing over the fact that the traitors from the Nights Watch (an army recruited from dungeons which has many convicted rapists in it's ranks) would likely rape Crasters daughters after killing him and claiming his keep as their own?

What do we gain by not showing the violence?

Pat Mustard

Sleepy wrote: »

What do we gain by not showing the violence?

A PG rating and screening before the 9pm watershed?

They'd have to get rid of all the knives though...

Witcher

The Mustard wrote: »

A PG rating and screening before the 9pm watershed?

They'd have to get rid of all the knives though...

Ah people don't mind their kids seeing maiming, beheading, flaying or a man getting shot in the face by a crossbow...only sex.

As South Park said 'I guess parents don't give a crap about violence is there's sex things to worry about'.

Naydy

Sleepy wrote: »

Well, let's put it this way: what's to be gained from glossing over the fact that the traitors from the Nights Watch (an army recruited from dungeons which has many convicted rapists in it's ranks) would likely rape Crasters daughters after killing him and claiming his keep as their own?

What do we gain by not showing the violence?

You don't have to gloss over anything, you can imply abuse without having such a graphic uncomfortable scene. They didn't show Craster raping his daughters but we knew it happened. They didn't actually show Theon getting his member removed but we know it happened. They didn't show the farmers boys having their throats slit but we know it happened. They didn't show Loras and Renly riding each other and we managed to know they were in a relationship.

Duckworth_Luas

Ben and Holly's Magical Kingdom is on RTÉjr.

It has lots of the fantasy elements but none of the rape.

Not sure where they stand on cannibalism though. People always forget about the cannibalism?

GoodBridge

The shock card is one they seem to play a lot -but usually very well. Last night though I admit I found myself thinking "Jesus, is this a bit excessive? I don't remember it being this gratuitous in the book".

Anyway, do the makers know nothing? If you really want to pull a shocker just get someone to pretend to shoot a cat.

drumswan

Naydy wrote: »

You don't have to gloss over anything, you can imply abuse without having such a graphic uncomfortable scene. They didn't show Craster raping his daughters but we knew it happened. They didn't actually show Theon getting his member removed but we know it happened. They didn't show the farmers boys having their throats slit but we know it happened. They didn't show Loras and Renly riding each other and we managed to know they were in a relationship.

Um, they dont show actual rape either, you know its acting right?

Naydy

drumswan wrote: »

Um, they dont show actual rape either, you know its acting right?

Gee thanks for clearing that up :rolleyes:

My point is that most of that other stuff happens offscreen or is played down and it doesn't take away from the narrative. It's not added in for extra shock value

DM addict

Naydy wrote: »

You don't have to gloss over anything, you can imply abuse without having such a graphic uncomfortable scene. They didn't show Craster raping his daughters but we knew it happened. They didn't actually show Theon getting his member removed but we know it happened. They didn't show the farmers boys having their throats slit but we know it happened. They didn't show Loras and Renly riding each other and we managed to know they were in a relationship.

You're right, you can. You can always imply abuse/violence without showing it graphically.

But that's not what this show does, by and large. You're right, we didn't see Craster raping his wife/daughters - but it would have been weird if he was entertaining the Night's Watch while raping someone. It just wouldn't fit.

We didn't see Theon's castration in detail because there are many things that are just too ick to show. I doubt we'll see any female castration/FGM in detail either - some stuff you just can't get past the censors, even if you want to.

BUT I actually think the scene at Craster's last night does add something to the plot - or rather, underlines something. We've been told (quite a bit) that the Night's Watch is the dregs of society - bastards, thieves, murderers, rapists. But this scene emphasizes how close to returning to that life many of them are. AND, let's not forget, they're all that stands between the rest of the world and a bunch of wildlings, wights, White Walkers and god knows what else.

It's not a pleasant scene, but it works within context. It also basically sets skull-drinker (his name escapes me) up as the new Craster - he's bullying everyone around him and handing babies out for sacrifice.

Nerdlingr

drumswan wrote: »

Um, they dont show actual rape either, you know its acting right?

Next you're gonna tell us the Dragons aren't real either!! :rolleyes:

snausages

DM addict wrote: »

BUT I actually think the scene at Craster's last night does add something to the plot - or rather, underlines something. We've been told (quite a bit) that the Night's Watch is the dregs of society - bastards, thieves, murderers, rapists. But this scene emphasizes how close to returning to that life many of them are. AND, let's not forget, they're all that stands between the rest of the world and a bunch of wildlings, wights, White Walkers and god knows what else.

tbh, the first reasonable counter-argument I've read, for last night's scene at least. Although I disagree that they need to show that scene, I do admit to forgetting sometimes that lots of the Night's Watch are really just a shower of arseholes who deserve to be there rather than unfortunates like Jon Snow and Sam.

Sleepy

I really don't think it's done for "shock value", it's done to paint the world as it has been imagined by the author: one that's violent.

dark crystal

drumswan wrote: »

Um, they dont show actual rape either, you know its acting right?

What has that comment got to do with the point that poster was making?
I think it's safe to say we all know it's makey-uppy tv, not real life, so there's really no need to talk down to people with silly comments like that.

Fancy addressing the actual points the poster made?

Naydy

DM addict wrote: »

You're right, you can. You can always imply abuse/violence without showing it graphically.

But that's not what this show does, by and large. You're right, we didn't see Craster raping his wife/daughters - but it would have been weird if he was entertaining the Night's Watch while raping someone. It just wouldn't fit.

We didn't see Theon's castration in detail because there are many things that are just too ick to show. I doubt we'll see any female castration/FGM in detail either - some stuff you just can't get past the censors, even if you want to.

BUT I actually think the scene at Craster's last night does add something to the plot - or rather, underlines something. We've been told (quite a bit) that the Night's Watch is the dregs of society - bastards, thieves, murderers, rapists. But this scene emphasizes how close to returning to that life many of them are. AND, let's not forget, they're all that stands between the rest of the world and a bunch of wildlings, wights, White Walkers and god knows what else.

It's not a pleasant scene, but it works within context. It also basically sets skull-drinker (his name escapes me) up as the new Craster - he's bullying everyone around him and handing babies out for sacrifice.

Theon wasn't the best example there, I was trying to think of scenes off the top of my head. I see your point, but you can achieve all of the above without another over the top rape scene. There was already a scene back at the Crows were one of them said "Bet those poor girls never thought they'd miss their daddy". We already know they are being abused horribly. Did they need to say

rape 'em til there dead

or have someone raping a girl literally right behind him. There was enough screams in the background and the absolutely defeated looks and bruises on some of the women got across the point of him being an absolute evil **** well enough.

username123

snausages wrote: »

I think a lot of people have missed my main point, which is that the frequency of scenes of women being raped far outweighs some of the other scenes you've just mentioned. I don't think so many of them is needed. There hasn't been a crucifixion scene or a scene with a man having his genitals mutilated half as frequently as there have been scenes of women being raped violently.

Erm.... didnt Dany crucify over 100 people last night? And talk about the 163 children crucified on the way to Meereen? We havent seen 163 rapes have we?

I actually liked the Crasters scene, I thought the casual rape added a lot to it, particularly as you could see the one fat guy who had killed Lord Commander Mormont was on the edge of desperation, he was kissing a girls back and trying to forget the horrible situation he was in. For those guys in Crasters keep its certain death even if the Nights Watch dont come for them, because they wont be able to grow anything, trade, etc... theyve no way of surviving once theyve eaten whats stored, and because they are Nights Watch deserters, theres nowhere to run - further North is going to be death by wildings/white walkers/cold/hunger, and they cant go south because they wont get past the Wall and even if they do - theyll be executed for deserting if they are caught. So theyre dead men walking. Why not rape and rape and drink - theres little else they can do.

Potatoeman

snausages wrote: »

tbh, the first reasonable counter-argument I've read, for last night's scene at least. Although I disagree that they need to show that scene, I do admit to forgetting sometimes that lots of the Night's Watch are really just a shower of arseholes who deserve to be there rather than unfortunates like Jon Snow and Sam.

Most people that didnt read the books miss some pretty obvious characters that are related too.

December2012

Rape is a weapon of war. There is a lot of talk about it in the books. There is also beheading, castration, fire sacrifice, ordering soldiers to their death, genocide, famine, hunger, inequality, violence, slavery and constant examples of how war really affects people.

Khal Drogo says he will take the iron throne and rape the women of those who stand in his way.

He rapes his wife at times. Prostitutes get raped. They get beaten up, there is hella violence against them. There is peadophilia, there is male rape too, bed slaves, the whole lot.

The story is basically about war.

I don't think the mention or depiction of rape or violence is too much.

It's just how it is. And if it offends you or makes it uncomfortable for you to watch, then don't (it's ine of the reasons I don't watch Oz).

Naux

The books(and the tv show) are full of rape, incest, torture, murder, cruelty, brutality and carnage.

This thread reminds me of the whole "he killed the cat" phenomenon that we saw with Love Hate:P

What about the violence against wolves !!

Grimebox

Meh. It's a depiction of violence in a fantasy world. I can detach myself appropriately. Nothing can offend me after watching Irreversible.

DM addict

Naydy wrote: »

Theon wasn't the best example there, I was trying to think of scenes off the top of my head. I see your point, but you can achieve all of the above without another over the top rape scene. There was already a scene back at the Crows were one of them said "Bet those poor girls never thought they'd miss their daddy". We already know they are being abused horribly. Did they need to say

rape 'em til there dead

or have someone raping a girl literally right behind him. There was enough screams in the background and the absolutely defeated looks and bruises on some of the women got across the point of him being an absolute evil **** well enough.

They didn't need to, no. But HBO is not known for toning down the violence. And I understand why they did it. It is brutal, and the show could work without it. But I think it would be poorer for it.

I think one of the things that I enjoy about GoT is that the violence doesn't feel gratuitous. Now, Joffrey's whore-baiting - completely repulsive. But it makes sense, and it gives great insight into the character. And into why

QoT would rather kill him than let her granddaughter marry him.

I am not going to go through every OTT scene and explain why it's in there, although to be honest, I'm quite tempted. I agree that there is an incredible amount of violence, and a lot of sexual violence against women. But I believe it serves plot and character.