People with Irish surnames - but no evidence of Irishness

PopePalpatine · 29-04-2014 05:15PM

ryan101 wrote: »

So why all the complaints about someone using their Irish surname, i.e. their real surname ?

ryan101 wrote: »

For pure convenience, I maintain the use of the surname the occupiers gave my family, but it is not my correct family surname and never will be. I respect anyone who wishes to restore their correct family surname.

Are we all meant to be hypocrites now Father? I might not be able to devote myself full time to the old hypocrisy.

Iwasfrozen · 29-04-2014 05:18PM

que pasa wrote: »

I heard Irish was beaten out of children in school after the famine. They had to wear a stick around their neck which was marked for every time they spoke English.

Ya so your right, the English had no part in it.

The teachers were Irish, the principals were Irish. Irish parents encouraged their children to speak English and use English names. The new central post office staffed and headed by Irish people helped with translating people's names and addresses.

Daniel O'Connell despite being a native speaker of Irish himself encouraged all of this because English was seen as the language of Science and commerce at the time.

Fred Swanson · 29-04-2014 05:20PM

This post has been deleted.

Larry Wildman · 29-04-2014 05:23PM

Conor Cruise O'Brien was Unionist in his outlook...pretty Irish name

Brian? · 29-04-2014 05:25PM

MJ23 wrote: »

Lots of the ladies in RTE have those long unpronounceable Irish names.
Why is that?

Because that's what their parents named them. Imagine that, keeping the name you were given as a child. What will they ever think of next?

Also, give that we all spend about 14 years studying Irish it shouldn't really be a stretch to pronounce any Irish name.

kingchess · 29-04-2014 05:34PM

people were -how shall we say it?-encouraged by the government,and by the need to get ahead in life by learning English and by anglicizing their Irish names, the names of townlands and villages etc were also anglicized.

Santa Cruz · 29-04-2014 05:41PM

kingchess wrote: »

people were -how shall we say it?-encouraged by the government,and by the need to get ahead in life by learning English and by anglicizing their Irish names, the names of townlands and villages etc were also anglicized.

The crowd below in Dingle were fairly angry when the Government wanted to change the name back to Daingean. Don't let anything come in the way of profit in good old republican Kerry

olliesgirl55 · 29-04-2014 05:45PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

this practice seems to be rampant in RTE

And with politicians it seems:D

Elmo · 29-04-2014 05:48PM

Many of the Staff in RTÉ start out reading An Nuacht.

Anyway call yourself what you want.

P. Breathnach · 29-04-2014 05:54PM

kingchess wrote: »

people were -how shall we say it?-encouraged by the government,and by the need to get ahead in life by learning English and by anglicizing their Irish names, the names of townlands and villages etc were also anglicized.

After the famine, they didn't need much encouragement. Emigation became an important facet of life in Ireland, and people saw an important benefit in learning English.

Paramite Pie · 29-04-2014 06:00PM

woodoo wrote: »

I hate those names pebble dashed with fadas.

Fadas are easy, it's the random silent letters you have to watch out for.;)

Interestingly, my Anglicized surname often confuses and confounds people due to a silent 'g' right in the middle of it. There's no 'g' in the Irish version.

Irish spellings technically have more consistency than English spellings (which is one reason why English is one of the hardest languages to learn).

But since few of us are taught it properly, it's hard to see the logic.

VinLieger wrote: »

Im of the opinion that you technically cannot translate a name from one language to another.

A name is something removed from language so it is not possible to translate it. You can change it to whatever the **** you want but saying you translated your name is horsesh1t.

Historically that was not true, as names had well understood meanings back then. For example, the ancient Greeks translated Ramesses II into Ozymandias (wtf??) which was a common thing to do back in the day as names were essentially just compound words to begin with. Most modern English names are translations (or alterations) themselves of Germanic, French and Latin versions of Hebrew names.

Of course nowadays its silly to translate a name as they are no longer recognisable words/phrases.

Chinasea · 29-04-2014 06:48PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

So we've a fella who works with us, his Christian name and surname are translated into Irish - it's a hard to pronounce surname with loads of fadas. A lot of our business with with US multi-nationals, so causes no end of hassle and confusion / lost emails etc.

!

So you have to be a Christian to have a first name....as Gaeilge or whichever lingo you fancy.

GaelMise · 29-04-2014 07:06PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Family were reffered to as say Connolly and the father just changed the surname (presumably his own by deed pole?) over night.

No need for a deed poll, the state recognises an equilivance between Irish and English versions of names, people are entitled to use either as they see fit.

GaelMise · 29-04-2014 07:10PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The teachers were Irish, the principals were Irish. Irish parents encouraged their children to speak English and use English names. The new central post office staffed and headed by Irish people helped with translating people's names and addresses.

Daniel O'Connell despite being a native speaker of Irish himself encouraged all of this because English was seen as the language of Science and commerce at the time.

Yep, The Irish peoples confidence and respect for themselves and their own language was erroded over generations of Colonial rule until it became a badge of shame and poverty.
I don't think anyone looking at the big picture could call it a voluntary process though.

29-04-2014 07:11PM

I use my Irish name and hate the GAA.

No surrender!

Iwasfrozen · 29-04-2014 08:04PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Yep, The Irish peoples confidence and respect for themselves and their own language was erroded over generations of Colonial rule until it became a badge of shame and poverty.
I don't think anyone looking at the big picture could call it a voluntary process though.

There was a big shift towards speaking English and using English names sometime around the middle of the 19th century over the span of a few decades. It wasn't something that eroded over centuries of English rule it all happened relatively suddenly.

Follaton_Wood · 29-04-2014 08:24PM

My name is an Irish name. Therefore it has a fadá. Without the fadá - it would be a different name. Also, there's no direct English translation, apart from one some tool decided to link it with back god knows when, which a ton of gullible fcukers chose to believe.

I don't see the issue.

GaelMise · 29-04-2014 08:51PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There was a big shift towards speaking English and using English names sometime around the middle of the 19th century over the span of a few decades. It wasn't something that eroded over centuries of English rule it all happened relatively suddenly.

It was quite protracted actually, you even had some (admitedly delusional) Pale dwelers claiming that the Irish Language was all but dead and would be gone completely within their lifetimes, hundreds of years before the famine.

The language went into a long decline from the plantations onwards, by the end of the 18th centuary almost half of Irelands population spoke English, the decline continued through the early 19th centuary. The only sudden aspect came towards the tail end of the process with the mass death and emigration of native Irish speakers during and in the aftermath of the famine.
It took over a hundred years to go from around 50% of the population speaking Irish in the late 18th centuary to around 20% in the early 20th centuary and a good amount of that was simply Irish speakers starving to death or being forced to leave the country.

Around all of this however was a very clear process of the language being marginalised in society, lead from the top by a toxic attitude to the language in the colonial administration and landed acendency class. Speaking Irish became stigmatised as a badge of poverty, ignorance, backwardness and disloyalty.

131spanner · 29-04-2014 08:53PM

I don't like the idea of people having their names in Irish on Facebook, and not using the Irish language nor taking any interest in it. I think it's a bit... paradoxical or something?

winnie the schtink · 29-04-2014 08:57PM

fcukin paidin mc bhaidin types sicken my hole,he needs a good dose of david mc savage to sort him out

Iwasfrozen · 29-04-2014 09:07PM

GaelMise wrote: »

It was quite protracted actually, you even had some (admitedly delusional) Pale dwelers claiming that the Irish Language was all but dead and would be gone completely within their lifetimes, hundreds of years before the famine.

The language went into a long decline from the plantations onwards, by the end of the 18th centuary almost half of Irelands population spoke English, the decline continued through the early 19th centuary. The only sudden aspect came towards the tail end of the process with the mass death and emigration of native Irish speakers during and in the aftermath of the famine.
It took over a hundred years to go from around 50% of the population speaking Irish in the late 18th centuary to around 20% in the early 20th centuary and a good amount of that was simply Irish speakers starving to death or being forced to leave the country.

Around all of this however was a very clear process of the language being marginalised in society, lead from the top by a toxic attitude to the language in the colonial administration and landed acendency class. Speaking Irish became stigmatised as a badge of poverty, ignorance, backwardness and disloyalty.

Irish was the majority language in 1800 despite centuries of English rule. But was a minority language by the 1841 census. Irish was abandoned relatively quickly over the span of a few decades.

There was a slow gradual decline before this sure but the decline exploded during this period and like the famine it's more complicated than "Brits did it". Irish people had a very big role to play in the demise of the language.

Iwasfrozen · 29-04-2014 09:08PM

131spanner wrote: »

I don't like the idea of people having their names in Irish on Facebook, and not using the Irish language nor taking any interest in it. I think it's a bit... paradoxical or something?

Lot's of teachers and guards do it so their profiles can't be searched. It's a good way of stopping employers looking up your profile too.

Sulla Felix · 29-04-2014 09:19PM

mandrake04 wrote: »

If he was born in Ireland he is Irish.

Not for years. You have to have a blood relationship now. They got rid of geographic citizenship.

GaelMise · 29-04-2014 09:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish was the majority language in 1800 despite centuries of English rule. But was a minority language by the 1841 census. Irish was abandoned relatively quickly over the span of a few decades.

There was a slow gradual decline before this sure but the decline exploded during this period and like the famine it's more complicated than "Brits did it".

Prefamine statistics are not reliable. The first reliable data available is 1851 census.
I said around 50% in the late 18th centuary because honestly it could have been + or - 3 or 4 percent either way. A minority language is one not spoken by a majority of the population, so yes Irish may well have gone from just over 50% to around 40% in 40 years and went to being a minority language at the same time, but thats not really saying anything significant, is it.
It also kind of ignores the reality that Irish had been replaced as the majority language in large parts of the country, centered around Dublin and the Plantation areas before the 19th centuary.

The decline of Irish was a protracted affair that happened over the course of several generations. It is simply counter to fact to suggest that the language shift happened over the course of a few decades.

miss no stars · 29-04-2014 09:28PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Prefamine statistics are not reliable. The first reliable data available is 1851 census.
I said around 50% in the late 18th centuary because honestly it could have been + or - 3 or 4 percent either way. A minority language is one not spoken by a majority of the population, so yes Irish may well have gone from just over 50% to around 40% in 40 years and went to being a minority language at the same time, but thats not really saying anything significant, is it.
It also kind of ignores the reality that Irish had been replaced as the majority language in large parts of the country, centered around Dublin and the Plantation areas before the 19th centuary.

The decline of Irish was a protracted affair that happened over the course of several generations. It is simply counter to fact to suggest that the language shift happened over the course of a few decades.

Smart people chose English because it gave them options to emigrate. Not many Americans spoke Irish, y'know.

My name is URL · 29-04-2014 09:29PM

People have very little to be worrying about if someone deciding to use an Irish version of their name annoys them.

Good old AH.. where everyone supports the idea that a person can change gender at will, but changing their name is just beyond all reason :pac:

iForgetMyPW · 29-04-2014 09:42PM

So you want him to change his surname??

Richard · 29-04-2014 09:45PM

ryan101 wrote: »

I see little point in keeping the name the occupier forced your family to use.
You don't see other nationalities feeling they have to apologise for using their non english surnames.

What occupier is forcing you to be called Ryan, then? You know there's no y in Irish?

Iwasfrozen · 29-04-2014 09:48PM

GaelMise wrote: »

Prefamine statistics are not reliable. The first reliable data available is 1851 census.
I said around 50% in the late 18th centuary because honestly it could have been + or - 3 or 4 percent either way. A minority language is one not spoken by a majority of the population, so yes Irish may well have gone from just over 50% to around 40% in 40 years and went to being a minority language at the same time, but thats not really saying anything significant, is it.
It also kind of ignores the reality that Irish had been replaced as the majority language in large parts of the country, centered around Dublin and the Plantation areas before the 19th centuary.

The decline of Irish was a protracted affair that happened over the course of several generations. It is simply counter to fact to suggest that the language shift happened over the course of a few decades.

I would say it was pretty substantial. In 1835 the number of Irish speakers was about 4 million. By 1891 less than 6 decades later the number had fallen to about 680,000 and Irish speakers under 10 represented 3.5% of their age group.

Source: http://www.gaeilge.org/irish.html

That's a pretty substantial fall in my book and made all the more impressive when you take into consideration the 4 million Irish speakers were living in concentrated areas outside the Pale and plantation areas.

Also I question your claim that emigration played a big role in the fall of Irish, if the majority of those who emigrated were native Irish speakers then why did they drop their language so fast when they reached the New World? Italian speakers set up their own communities in many US cities and Irish emigrants certainly outnumbered Italiens.

Iwasfrozen · 29-04-2014 09:53PM

Richard wrote: »

What occupier is forcing you to be called Ryan, then? You know there's no y in Irish?

He's Welsh.

People with Irish surnames - but no evidence of Irishness

Comments