Satan/Lucifer: hero of the bible?

gufnork · 27-04-2014 09:30AM

When people start talking about Satan/Lucifer as anything other than evil, I tend to take a large step back. I think a lot of what attracts people to Satan and his ilk comes very much from just that romantic view of him that the OP mentioned initially. Movies like Dracula don't help. A monster is still a monster no matter how well dressed he is.

Autonomous Cowherd · 27-04-2014 09:40AM

gufnork wrote: »

Forget adversaries, and start from the beginning. Start from what you know and go on from there.

For what it's worth, I'm not a man that likes labels. There tend to be agendas behind them. They're quite appealing I know, but in all seriousness, if you'll take just one piece of advice, it would be just that. To 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you're here'.

That's the beginning.

Nice one, Gufnork. Gnothi Seauton. Know Thyself (Oracle of Delphi)

Luciferians consider Lucifer to have been the brightest star in the sky, the morning star. The chosen one. Apart from a bit of occasional arrogance and some egoic delusions of grandeur on their parts, I have always found Luciferians to be grand and amiable. At least they are questioning....

I also associate our idea of the devil with the primordial God form...Pan, Shiva, the god of the woods and the creatures, blazing Shakti, our own raw instinctual and sexual natures. I have plenty of time for that archetype.

God, but we have been fed an awful lot of nonsense from the time we were small. To think of the versions of economics, history, religion, politics, morals, and so on that we have been spoon-fed as incontestable truth since we were born, and how the accepted norm is at best but a collective delusion. As i like to say (to meself mostly, because it is all about a personal journey and quest) ''where's yer middle class now!''

We gotta wake up, rise up and get free.

Matthew 5.11 · 27-04-2014 09:54AM

"fascinated with the romantic view of satan",even that is a form of devil worshipping whether you believe in god or the devil or not,
devil worshippers are responsible for some of the worst kinds of crime around the world,they also exist in ireland,
there is a reason they hide the fact that they are devil worshippers,so they can carry out their evil deeds,
nothing romatic about the devil.

bada_bing · 27-04-2014 10:04AM

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

"fascinated with the romantic view of satan",even that is a form of devil worshipping whether you believe in god or the devil or not,
devil worshippers are responsible for some of the worst kinds of crime around the world,they also exist in ireland,
there is a reason they hide the fact that they are devil worshippers,so they can carry out their evil deeds,
nothing romatic about the devil.

same can be said for followers and people involved with the catholic church!!!!

donegal__road · 27-04-2014 10:09AM

if god was an powerful being that conquers everything, why wouldn't he/she just exterminate satan and rid us of all evil for ever more?

ans: because if the church announced that god had successfully defeated satan and he had ceased to exist, then there would be nothing to be afraid of anymore, and the church would not be able to keep it's subjects in servile fearfulness.

Xeyn · 27-04-2014 10:16AM

bada_bing wrote: »

same can be said for followers and people involved with the catholic church!!!!

Or any other religion. Far more people have been killed or tortured in the name of god as opposed to satan.
It's a poor argument that 'devil worshippers' are more evil than others given the facts.
Having said that extremist satanists are every bit as dangerous as other extremists.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2014 10:24AM

donegal__road wrote: »

if god was an powerful being that conquers everything, why wouldn't he/she just exterminate satan and rid us of all evil for ever more?

ans: because if the church announced that god had successfully defeated satan and he had ceased to exist, then there would be nothing to be afraid of anymore, and the church would not be able to keep it's subjects in servile fearfulness.

Actual answer: because to do so would destroy free will. A person has to choose to follow the correct path or it's meaningless.

ancapailldorcha · 27-04-2014 10:27AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actual answer: because to do so would destroy free will. A person has to choose to follow the correct path or it's meaningless.

There are numerous instances in the Bible where God inflicts some horrid "punishment" on someone simply because they choose not to obey him. Jonah is a good example.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2014 10:29AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There are numerous instances in the Bible where God inflicts some horrid "punishment" on someone simply because they choose not to obey him. Jonah is a good example.

Yes the idea is that while a person has free will they are not immune from the consequences of their decisions.

Wabbit Ears · 27-04-2014 10:31AM

Satans singular crime was questioning God and giving man Knowledge. Up until then he was Gods right hand man.

After this God had hissy fit on a celestial scale and became a complete cnut to Satan and spread a load of sh1t about him to make out like hes the worst person EVER!!

So basically, Gods a bit of a d1ck and satan really got shafted.

Its really amazing how all this eyelids and satans manipulation stuff comes from, people really like making stupid poetic stuff up to embellish their fancifull tales.

Matthew 5.11 · 27-04-2014 10:33AM

bada_bing wrote: »

same can be said for followers and people involved with the catholic church!!!!

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone that believes in god is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

gw80 · 27-04-2014 10:42AM

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone that believes in god is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

Christ on a bike!

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2014 10:44AM

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone that believes in god is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

Cuts on their what? On their face? Arms?

I must know!

ancapailldorcha · 27-04-2014 10:48AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes the idea is that while a person has free will they are not immune from the consequences of their decisions.

The same as someone with a gun pointed at them.

bumper234 · 27-04-2014 10:50AM

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

"fascinated with the romantic view of satan",even that is a form of devil worshipping whether you believe in god or the devil or not,
devil worshippers are responsible for some of the worst kinds of crime around the world,they also exist in ireland,
there is a reason they hide the fact that they are devil worshippers,so they can carry out their evil deeds,
nothing romatic about the devil.

But them christians, great bunch of lads altogether :rolleyes:

Matthew 5.11 · 27-04-2014 10:51AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Cuts on their what? On their face? Arms?

I must know!

hands usually

furiousox · 27-04-2014 10:51AM

But the devil has all the best tunes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41vKKNzAbJs

ancapailldorcha · 27-04-2014 10:53AM

Christians are great, aren't they:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJG-lgmPvYA

gufnork · 27-04-2014 10:56AM

I think a lot of it comes down to the intention behind the act. If the intention is to worship the classic Christian version of the devil then we shouldn't expect him to be just. You either take the whole package or not at all.

shruikan2553 · 27-04-2014 10:57AM

I always found that god just overreacted completely when someone dared to say no to him. If Lucifer was that much of an issue he should have destroyed him unless he isn't as powerful as we're lead to believe so couldn't.

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone thSatanistsSatanistod is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

So you can't generalise about a Christian religion but can about another? This is what makes it difficult to respect Christians, they don't like it if you look at their religion funny but then proceed to not respect Scientology, Islam or Satanists

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2014 11:03AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The same as someone with a gun pointed at them.

No, In Christian theology since humanity committed original sin they are dammed from birth since they deviated away from God's original design.

In the old testament Satan gave humans knowledge and free will but he also dammed humanity unless they consciously choose to restrict their own free will by following all of God's many rules they would have instinctively followed anyway.

A blood sacrifice of livestock in the old testament was used to gain favor with God. In the new testament because of Christs blood sacrifice these rules need no longer be followed. In the last supper he specifically mentions the creation of a new covenant.

Now a person only needs to believe in Christ to save themselves.

bumper234 · 27-04-2014 11:06AM

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone that believes in god is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

Made me lol

Anyway

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2014 11:08AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

.
So you can't generalise about a Christian religion but can about another? This is what makes it difficult to respect Christians, they don't like it if you look at their religion funny but then proceed to not respect Scientology, Islam or Satanists

Scientology and Islam are one thing but you're hardly going to respect someone who worships the actual personification of evil.

bumper234 · 27-04-2014 11:10AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scientology and Islam are one thing but you're hardly going to respect someone who worships the actual personification of evil.

Alleged personification.

shruikan2553 · 27-04-2014 11:12AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scientology and Islam are one thing but you're hardly going to respect someone who worships the actual personification of evil.

Evil? That's a bit harsh. What if someone believes its all wrong and that Christians have it the wrong way? Satan wanted to free us from tyranny. God even toutured a man to prove a point to him. Why won't god destroy him if he is such a problem?

Even if he was evil why does that make someone's beliefs lesser to others?

endacl · 27-04-2014 11:18AM

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

You're absolutely right. It's not the small cuts though. They used to use small cuts, until the invention of the envelope, with which came the phenomena of the paper cut. Satanists found that suddenly they were indistinguishable from people with paper cuts. I remember hearing about a poor satanist who brought a goat in to sacrifice in his office one casual Friday after seeing that some of his colleagues had paper cuts after a particularly busy week postage wise. Poor man was mortified!

They've given up on the small cuts. They were considering fixie bikes as an alternative, but the hipsters nabbed those. I think they've settled on purple bobble hats. Keep a sharp eye out for satanists in purple bobble hats. Especially in the summer! Pesky satanists....

Autonomous Cowherd · 27-04-2014 11:20AM

endacl wrote: »

You're absolutely right. It's not the small cuts though. They used to use small cuts, until the invention of the envelope, with which came the phenomena of the paper cut. Satanists found that suddenly they were indistinguishable from people with paper cuts. I remember hearing about a poor satanist who brought a goat in to sacrifice in his office one casual Friday after seeing that some of his colleagues had paper cuts after a particularly busy week postage wise. Poor man was mortified!

They've given up on the small cuts. They were considering fixie bikes as an alternative, but the hipsters nabbed those. I think they've settled on purple bobble hats. Keep a sharp eye out for satanists in purple bobble hats. Especially in the summer! Pesky satanists....

Hahahah!

The goats are a dead giveaway though. A lot of them wear eyeliner. Even the guys.

Iwasfrozen · 27-04-2014 11:23AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Evil? That's a bit harsh. What if someone believes its all wrong and that Christians have it the wrong way? Satan wanted to free us from tyranny. God even toutured a man to prove a point to him. Why won't god destroy him if he is such a problem?

Even if he was evil why does that make someone's beliefs lesser to others?

Satan gave humans free will and in doing so dammed us unless we consciously choose to restrict that free will.

In the desert he tried to tempt Jesus away from preparation for his own sacrifice to prevent the formation of the second covenant.

Every time Satan appears in the Bible he does so to try and turn humanity away from God.

bumper234 · 27-04-2014 11:27AM

I think satan is going to turn out a bit like Snape, you think he is evil all.along and then right at the end BOOM!!!!! He turns out to be a good guy all along.

Autonomous Cowherd · 27-04-2014 11:28AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Satan gave humans free will and in doing so dammed us unless we consciously choose to restrict that free will.

In the desert he tried to tempt Jesus away from preparation for his own sacrifice to prevent the formation of the second covenant.

Every time Satan appears in the Bible he does so to try and turn humanity away from God.

How about if Satan is YOU (and by that I mean me or any one of us) every time you cleave to your lower nature. And how about if GOD is also you every time you move towards your Higher Self. How about if Satan is a scapeGOAT (ahem) so that you can blame evil on something OUT there? And thereby ignore the evil within, and that which lives within you (I/we/they) and permits evil to dwell among us? Look around you. the coffee you drink, the bananas you eat, the tea, the laptop, etc ad infinitum, comes from places where people are bullied, harried, poisoned, live short and brutish lives, and this is not evil we permit? Are we thus not at least complicit with the devil...and does that devilish part not dwell within?

Satan/Lucifer: hero of the bible?

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