Satan/Lucifer: hero of the bible?

Zed Bank

As long as I can remember I was always fascinated with the romantic view of Satan. I don't believe in either God or Satan, so when I look at the bible objectively I can't help but feel sympathetic for the character and his plight

Satan is more like ourselves, Satan is a deeply flawed and lonely figure, his rebellion against an omnipotent and an all powerful God was always doomed to failure, but hes determined and ambitious, I think this is all relatable to people on some level, Satan dosent discriminate, I don't think he would care if your gay or a non believer or whatever.

he doesn't necessarily represent cruelty or brutally, the word simply means "advesary" in Hebrew. Satan has virtuous characteristics, pride, individualism, liberty, rebellion. He stood up to a despicable God really, a genocidal maniac who cruelly toys with his creations knowing full well we can never live up to his impossible standards.

Satan also gifted humans with the power of knowledge, when God wanted to keep us all ignorant and crude. Jesus was starving out in the desert and Satan offered to end his suffering.

Is the concept of Satan something to be embraced and admired, a character to emulate in ways?

Or maybe my thoughts are just the ramblings of a filthy heathen?

Anyone have any opinions on this?
I sure hope hell has ping pong...

EDIT: This is a great documentary for anyone who is bored or interested, at the 38 minute mark it starts discussing what im getting at.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8XQbqZUkms

Links234

In terms of the mythology, I've always viewed Lucifer as similar to Prometheus, stealing fire from the gods. Except instead of fire, it's knowledge.

Also the Sandman Spin-Off series Lucifer is an amazing work and well worth a read, every bit the equal of Gaiman's series.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Interesting post, it could ruffle a few feathers at a Bible study meeting though. :P

Bipolar Joe

I dunno a whole lot about religion other than what I read myself. I read about a sect called the Cathars who believed that other religions had got things the wrong way around, that Satan was actually God and vice versa. Satan (The God we know) tricked people into thinking he is God, and people just went along with it. Kind of makes sense when you think about how Satan is supposed to be evil, but God is the one continually pummelling humanity into dust.

Amirani

I've actually never really considered things like that OP. That's a very interesting take on things. Is it also worth considering that Satan is a manifestation of the perceived negative qualities of humanity according to religion? Qualities that we wouldn't necessarily view with negativity in modern society, hence him having some qualities of a humanist cult hero.

Lucyfur

Im lovely

Honest

jimgoose

I'm a fan of Man!

Banjo String

Any time is a good time for the stones.

This thread is perfect though.

Cantremember

Load of bollix.

Peregrine

That's an interesting take on it, I have to say. It's definitely given me some food for thought.

Hell Ram

Very interesting.

Wouldn't be big into religion, but I'd be interested to read more about this.

Badly Drunk Boy

The term Satan comes from the term for 'adversary', and in the early Bible stories, he was merely an adversary of God but similar in nature, similar to a Devil's Advocate perhaps, questioning God's ideas by debate rather than being his enemy. The name only got more negative connotations as the years went by.

As mentioned by Links234 above, Lucifer means 'carrier of the light' as was Prometheus in Greek mythology.

gufnork

The romantic view of Satan is right. He's not known as the Prince of lies for nothing. If I could give anyone one piece of advice based on what I've been taught, it would be to 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you are here'. We're all here for a reason. We've all come to this world to accomplish something. What are you truly passionate about? What one thing truly consumes you? What is it that gets your blood racing through your veins? Look for patterns in your past, and amongst your ancestors. Your family isn't your family by accident.

Forget adversaries, and start from the beginning. Start from what you know and go on from there.

For what it's worth, I'm not a man that likes labels. There tend to be agendas behind them. They're quite appealing I know, but in all seriousness, if you'll take just one piece of advice, it would be just that. To 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you're here'.

That's the beginning.

kneemos

Zed Bank wrote: »

As long as I can remember I was always fascinated with the romantic view of Satan. I don't believe in either God or Satan, so when I look at the bible objectively I can't help but feel sympathetic for the character and his plight

Satan is more like ourselves, Satan is a deeply flawed and lonely figure, his rebellion against an omnipotent and an all powerful God was always doomed to failure, but hes determined and ambitious, I think this is all relatable to people on some level, Satan dosent discriminate, I don't think he would care if your gay or a non believer or whatever.

he doesn't necessarily represent cruelty or brutally, the word simply means "advesary" in Hebrew. Satan has virtuous characteristics, pride, individualism, liberty, rebellion. He stood up to a despicable God really, a genocidal maniac who cruelly toys with his creations knowing full well we can never live up to his impossible standards.

Satan also gifted humans with the power of knowledge, when God wanted to keep us all ignorant and crude. Jesus was starving out in the desert and Satan offered to end his suffering.

Is the concept of Satan something to be embraced and admired, a character to emulate in ways?

Or maybe my thoughts are just the ramblings of a filthy heathen?

Anyone have any opinions on this?
I sure hope hell has ping pong...

EDIT: This is a great documentary for anyone who is bored or interested, at the 38 minute mark it starts discussing what im getting at.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8XQbqZUkms

God doesn't toy with his creations he gives us free will.Nor does he expect us to live up to his standards but just to try our best.

Zed Bank

kneemos wrote: »

God doesn't toy with his creations he gives us free will.Nor does he expect us to live up to his standards but just to try our best.

Have you read the old testament?

Besides all that, Satan was the one who encouraged free will, God told Adam and Eve what they could and couldn't do. Satan in the garden of Eden said it was okay to practice our free will.

The Diabolical Monocle

gufnork wrote: »

The romantic view of Satan is right. He's not known as the Prince of lies for nothing. If I could give anyone one piece of advice based on what I've been taught, it would be to 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you are here'. We're all here for a reason. We've all come to this world to accomplish something. What are you truly passionate about? What one thing truly consumes you? What is it that gets your blood racing through your veins? Look for patterns in your past, and amongst your ancestors. Your family isn't your family by accident.

Forget adversaries, and start from the beginning. Start from what you know and go on from there.

For what it's worth, I'm not a man that likes labels. There tend to be agendas behind them. They're quite appealing I know, but in all seriousness, if you'll take just one piece of advice, it would be just that. To 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you're here'.

That's the beginning.

What about that kid in school who could turn his eyelids inside out ?
Should he use a mirror .... or take a selfie ?

Custardpi

Read Paradise Lost by John Milton. Epic poem which has Satan rallying his defeated army with stirring speeches.

kneemos

Zed Bank wrote: »

Have you read the old testament?

Besides all that, Satan was the one who encouraged free will, God told Adam and Eve what they could and couldn't do. Satan in the garden of Eden said it was okay to practice our free will.

Yeah it's all open to interpretation.You can see it whatever way you like to suit your agenda I suppose.
For someone that claims not to have an interest either way there certainly seems to be a bias.

Zed Bank

kneemos wrote: »

Yeah it's all open to interpretation.You can see it whatever way you like to suit your agenda I suppose.
For someone that claims not to have an interest either way there certainly seems to be a bias.

No, I said I have a fascination with the character of Satan and was sympathetic to his hypothetical agenda.

It's all mythology though. So we might aswell be debating the various merits of the tooth fairy vs the Easter bunny.

Canis Lupus

kneemos wrote: »

God doesn't toy with his creations he gives us free will.Nor does he expect us to live up to his standards but just to try our best.

God gives us the free will to do exactly as he says or else burn in hell forever... But he still loves you...

Said some comedian... roughly.

kneemos

Zed Bank wrote: »

No, I said I have a fascination with the character of Satan and was sympathetic to his hypothetical agenda.

It's all mythology though. So we might aswell be debating the various merits of the tooth fairy vs the Easter bunny.

So you are biased.

Zed Bank

kneemos wrote: »

So you are biased.

And you're not? Its not a matter of being biased or not, im sharing an opinion and a point of view.

kneemos

Zed Bank wrote: »

And you're not? Its not a matter of being biased or not, im sharing an opinion and a point of view.

Indeed.As long as we're clear where your coming from.

Zed Bank

kneemos wrote: »

Indeed.As long as we're clear where your coming from.

I think it's quite clear where im coming from.

Czarcasm

Zed Bank wrote: »

No, I said I have a fascination with the character of Satan and was sympathetic to his hypothetical agenda.

It's all mythology though. So we might aswell be debating the various merits of the tooth fairy vs the Easter bunny.

Ahh Jesus Zed don't start, you had a good thing going with discussion of the character of Satan, don't let this one turn into another train wreck of a thread about "debating" the existence of God. Let's just all kick back and talk about Satan for a while...

God killed millions in the bible.. Satan killed like ten.

o1s1n

kneemos wrote: »

So you are biased.

Funny as the only one here who appeared to be biased is you.

Interesting OP, going to watch that documentary now

Mahou

Deleted User wrote: »

God killed millions in the bible.. Satan killed like ten.

He liked ten or killed ten?

minidazzler

Here's one for you, Got was personally responsible for over 33 million deaths in the Bible, while Satan was responsible for 10.... which got allowed as part of a bet.

KyussBishop

Tbh, most mainstream forms of Satanism seem relatively benign, compared to any of your usual controversial religions/ideologies :pac:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Satanism

Anyway, random clip:

Duggy747

minidazzler wrote: »

Here's one for you, Got was personally responsible for over 33 million deaths in the Bible, while Satan was responsible for 10.... which got allowed as part of a bet.

Always found that story of Job funny, they easily could've put him in the middle of nowhere during extremely shìt weather with nothing but a rag to cover his arse.

Didn't need to go the whole hog of killing all his livestock, most of his servants, and all of his children just so God could go to Satan and effectively say: "See? He still worships me despite having nothing!..................You owe me a tenner, Lucifer."

gufnork

When people start talking about Satan/Lucifer as anything other than evil, I tend to take a large step back. I think a lot of what attracts people to Satan and his ilk comes very much from just that romantic view of him that the OP mentioned initially. Movies like Dracula don't help. A monster is still a monster no matter how well dressed he is.

Autonomous Cowherd

gufnork wrote: »

Forget adversaries, and start from the beginning. Start from what you know and go on from there.

For what it's worth, I'm not a man that likes labels. There tend to be agendas behind them. They're quite appealing I know, but in all seriousness, if you'll take just one piece of advice, it would be just that. To 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you're here'.

That's the beginning.

Nice one, Gufnork. Gnothi Seauton. Know Thyself (Oracle of Delphi)

Luciferians consider Lucifer to have been the brightest star in the sky, the morning star. The chosen one. Apart from a bit of occasional arrogance and some egoic delusions of grandeur on their parts, I have always found Luciferians to be grand and amiable. At least they are questioning....

I also associate our idea of the devil with the primordial God form...Pan, Shiva, the god of the woods and the creatures, blazing Shakti, our own raw instinctual and sexual natures. I have plenty of time for that archetype.

God, but we have been fed an awful lot of nonsense from the time we were small. To think of the versions of economics, history, religion, politics, morals, and so on that we have been spoon-fed as incontestable truth since we were born, and how the accepted norm is at best but a collective delusion. As i like to say (to meself mostly, because it is all about a personal journey and quest) ''where's yer middle class now!''

We gotta wake up, rise up and get free.

Matthew 5.11

"fascinated with the romantic view of satan",even that is a form of devil worshipping whether you believe in god or the devil or not,
devil worshippers are responsible for some of the worst kinds of crime around the world,they also exist in ireland,
there is a reason they hide the fact that they are devil worshippers,so they can carry out their evil deeds,
nothing romatic about the devil.

bada_bing

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

"fascinated with the romantic view of satan",even that is a form of devil worshipping whether you believe in god or the devil or not,
devil worshippers are responsible for some of the worst kinds of crime around the world,they also exist in ireland,
there is a reason they hide the fact that they are devil worshippers,so they can carry out their evil deeds,
nothing romatic about the devil.

same can be said for followers and people involved with the catholic church!!!!

donegal__road

if god was an powerful being that conquers everything, why wouldn't he/she just exterminate satan and rid us of all evil for ever more?

ans: because if the church announced that god had successfully defeated satan and he had ceased to exist, then there would be nothing to be afraid of anymore, and the church would not be able to keep it's subjects in servile fearfulness.

Xeyn

bada_bing wrote: »

same can be said for followers and people involved with the catholic church!!!!

Or any other religion. Far more people have been killed or tortured in the name of god as opposed to satan.
It's a poor argument that 'devil worshippers' are more evil than others given the facts.
Having said that extremist satanists are every bit as dangerous as other extremists.

Iwasfrozen

donegal__road wrote: »

if god was an powerful being that conquers everything, why wouldn't he/she just exterminate satan and rid us of all evil for ever more?

ans: because if the church announced that god had successfully defeated satan and he had ceased to exist, then there would be nothing to be afraid of anymore, and the church would not be able to keep it's subjects in servile fearfulness.

Actual answer: because to do so would destroy free will. A person has to choose to follow the correct path or it's meaningless.

ancapailldorcha

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actual answer: because to do so would destroy free will. A person has to choose to follow the correct path or it's meaningless.

There are numerous instances in the Bible where God inflicts some horrid "punishment" on someone simply because they choose not to obey him. Jonah is a good example.

Iwasfrozen

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There are numerous instances in the Bible where God inflicts some horrid "punishment" on someone simply because they choose not to obey him. Jonah is a good example.

Yes the idea is that while a person has free will they are not immune from the consequences of their decisions.

Wabbit Ears

Satans singular crime was questioning God and giving man Knowledge. Up until then he was Gods right hand man.

After this God had hissy fit on a celestial scale and became a complete cnut to Satan and spread a load of sh1t about him to make out like hes the worst person EVER!!

So basically, Gods a bit of a d1ck and satan really got shafted.

Its really amazing how all this eyelids and satans manipulation stuff comes from, people really like making stupid poetic stuff up to embellish their fancifull tales.

Matthew 5.11

bada_bing wrote: »

same can be said for followers and people involved with the catholic church!!!!

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone that believes in god is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

gw80

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone that believes in god is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

Christ on a bike!

Iwasfrozen

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone that believes in god is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

Cuts on their what? On their face? Arms?

I must know!

ancapailldorcha

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes the idea is that while a person has free will they are not immune from the consequences of their decisions.

The same as someone with a gun pointed at them.

bumper234

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

"fascinated with the romantic view of satan",even that is a form of devil worshipping whether you believe in god or the devil or not,
devil worshippers are responsible for some of the worst kinds of crime around the world,they also exist in ireland,
there is a reason they hide the fact that they are devil worshippers,so they can carry out their evil deeds,
nothing romatic about the devil.

But them christians, great bunch of lads altogether :rolleyes:

Matthew 5.11

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Cuts on their what? On their face? Arms?

I must know!

hands usually

furiousox

But the devil has all the best tunes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41vKKNzAbJs

ancapailldorcha

Christians are great, aren't they:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJG-lgmPvYA

gufnork

I think a lot of it comes down to the intention behind the act. If the intention is to worship the classic Christian version of the devil then we shouldn't expect him to be just. You either take the whole package or not at all.

shruikan2553

I always found that god just overreacted completely when someone dared to say no to him. If Lucifer was that much of an issue he should have destroyed him unless he isn't as powerful as we're lead to believe so couldn't.

Matthew 5.11 wrote: »

small minorty are responsible for what happened,its kinda like saying everyone thSatanistsSatanistod is responsible and you dont have to be a member of the catholic church to believe in god,
all god wants is for you to believe in him and be a good person,
you dont have to be a member of any religion to do this,

devil worshippers live by the ethos of the self,they believe in inflicting pain on others,
they believe that doin evil deeds will give them power,they have a web of lies and deceit that exists all around us,that is why they remain hidden,devil worshippers will say they are very religious but they wont say what their religion is,you cant call down to your local devil worshippers church and become a member,it is because they want to remain hidden because of the evil they do,
a sign of a devil worshipper is someone that will have small cuts on their,like from a razor blade,beware of anyone that you see this on,
these people exist in our society,if anyone thinks they dont,there making a mistake

So you can't generalise about a Christian religion but can about another? This is what makes it difficult to respect Christians, they don't like it if you look at their religion funny but then proceed to not respect Scientology, Islam or Satanists