Does The Queen Still Own Ireland?

Sir Arthur Daley · 22-04-2014 11:08PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A lot of the boglands would still be owned by the landed gentry across the way with local farmers having turbary and grazing rights.

Are you sure about the grazing bit?

dxhound2005 · 22-04-2014 11:10PM

I own a bit of the moon. I bought it off the internet.

The Backwards Man · 22-04-2014 11:11PM

Custardpi wrote: »

Interesting, has there ever been any proposals to buy it out?

Who would want it? Where I cut the turf up the back is owned by the Shaftesbury Estate. The current Earl was over a year or two ago as there was an old WWII plane dug up. First time he ever saw the place in his life, I'd say he'd have no bother selling it. It's no good for anything though.

Yellowblackbird · 22-04-2014 11:13PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I own a bit of the moon. I bought it off the internet.

Lunatic.

drdeadlift · 22-04-2014 11:14PM

We rent the four courts aswell as a few other prominent building from the uk.It nuts but true.Will find sources if ye want

Custardpi · 22-04-2014 11:15PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Who would want it? Where I cut the turf up the back is owned by the Shaftesbury Estate. The current Earl was over a year or two ago as there was an old WWII plane dug up. First time he ever saw the place in his life, I'd say he'd have no bother selling it. It's no good for anything though.

Does he receive any income from the land?

The Backwards Man · 22-04-2014 11:15PM

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Are you sure about the grazing bit?

Yep, depends on the estate I suppose, but most would have grazing rights for sheep attached to the deeds. Some are mapped off in sections and some are a part share of common ground, again depending on the Estate.

johnnyskeleton · 22-04-2014 11:16PM

A brief history of Irish land law by johnnyskeleton.

1. Normans conqueror England and make new legal system there - feudal tenure.
2. All land conquered belongs to the conquering king, who divides it up among his main supporters, who divide up their portions among their lieutenants who divide up their portions among their soldiers etc. Rent and fighting services are transferred back up to the king to keep their portion of the land.
3. English kings come to ireland with varying degrees of success, leaving traces of their customs and legal systems.
4. Bill of rights etc severely restrict kings right over land. Still notionally held under grant of king.
5. Act of union etc formalised English rule and implicit acceptance of English system of land ownership.
6. Land registry introduced but keeps language of old feudal tenure.
7. Irish free state and Republic of Ireland replaces royal estate with the new state. Royal prerogative abolished but state is the ultimate successor to unclaimed land and exercises soverign control over. 26 counties.
8. In all this, people forgot to abolish feudal tenure, until:
9. feudal tenure formally abolished by section 9 of the land law and conveyancing act 2009.

So any dubious argument was out to bed by 2009

The Backwards Man · 22-04-2014 11:18PM

Custardpi wrote: »

Does he receive any income from the land?

Those that don't have turbary are supposed to pay a land agent for the right to cut turf. Of course most people never bother their hole, so it will be interesting to see what happens this year after the Earl has been here and saw all the hundreds of acres of freshly cut turf for about two dozen households.:pac:

mike65 · 22-04-2014 11:23PM

Karl Stein wrote: »

Peregrine Andrew Mornington Cavendish, the 12th Duke of Devonshire 'owns' a stretch of the Blackwater River in Munster and charges anglers for the pleasure of fishing 'his' river.

If I owned that stretch I'd be able to charge you as well - bloody riff raff.

Lapin · 22-04-2014 11:24PM

So does this....

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

9. feudal tenure formally abolished by section 9 of the land law and conveyancing act 2009.

So any dubious argument was put to bed by 2009

.....make shít of this ?

drdeadlift wrote: »

We rent the four courts aswell as a few other prominent building from the uk.It nuts but true.Will find sources if ye want

I hope so.

tomwaterford · 22-04-2014 11:30PM

Karl Stein wrote: »

Peregrine Andrew Mornington Cavendish, the 12th Duke of Devonshire 'owns' a stretch of the Blackwater River in Munster and charges anglers for the pleasure of fishing 'his' river.

AFAIK he owns all of it from where the tide ends down around yawl

he charges to fish from the riverbank.....though this can be got around just outside cappaquin where the road runs right upto the edge of the river

on a side note....surly its about time Ireland ran its own lifeboats as well....I was at a funeral of an old man last year who was a volunteer lifeboat man in Dunmore and he got a medal years ago for bravery and had to go the queen to receive it....he always said he was proud to get it...but resented going to England for it even 50 odd years later:eek:

mike65 · 22-04-2014 11:30PM

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/6197

Cool Mo D · 22-04-2014 11:37PM

UCDCritic wrote: »

Someone once told me that although we gained our political indepdance the queen and others still owned the land.

Any truth to this?

Take for example the issue with rental outlets and how the rent can only ever go up, why is that the case? It sounds completely unfair, like the deal a colonial power would make.

I also heard that when you buy a house you're really only renting it for 99 years and after that time it goes back to the queen.

Please don't give me a lot of stick for this post if it's completely wrong.

Maybe if you remembered Junior Cert history it would help. There were several Land Acts passed just before and after independence, to allow tenant farmers to buy their land from the big landowners that historically owned the land. The Irish Government borrowed money to allow this, and one of the conditions of independence was paying back these loans. Later, the DeValera government decided to stop paying, leading to the economic war in the 1930s.

Sir Arthur Daley · 22-04-2014 11:43PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yep, depends on the estate I suppose, but most would have grazing rights for sheep attached to the deeds. Some are mapped off in sections and some are a part share of common ground, again depending on the Estate.

The ones near you are they attached to people - if they die, their turbury rights go?

pragmatic1 · 22-04-2014 11:44PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Wind up threads used to be better in After Hours :pac:

There was a good student one last night.

MagicMarker · 22-04-2014 11:45PM

She does own it, but we have Part 4 Tenancy, so it's all good.

The Backwards Man · 22-04-2014 11:49PM

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

The ones near you are they attached to people - if they die, their turbury rights go?

No, they are attached to the land, if you sell the farm the turbary goes along with it.

johnnyskeleton · 22-04-2014 11:49PM

Lapin wrote: »

So does this....

.....make shít of this ?

I hope so.

I think it's history is as follows:

Inns quay was originally a monastic settlement that was attained by Henry VIII and given to his buddy on condition it be leased to the barristers governing body (who then called themselves the kings inns). This site fell into disuse, was then granted by James I to the kings inns and then it was sorta taken over by the judges, the kings inns being relocated to henrietta street.

As this was quasi by consent the four courts took over the site as part owner part squatter with the admiral of the four courts as a kind of nominee/titular owner. They paid no rent to either the kings inns or to anyone else as far as I know, and that is still the position today. It was taken in charge by the office for public works at some stage.

Even if it was owned by the crown pre-1922 it would've been taken over by Eire in 1937 and any notional rent payment would've stopped in the trade war in 1932.

So it's possible that some crazy rent is being paid, without seeing the title
Documents I can't say. But I doubt it.

sligojoek · 22-04-2014 11:55PM

The queen never owned Ireland.

View · 23-04-2014 12:13AM

UCDCritic wrote: »

Someone once told me that although we gained our political indepdance the queen and others still owned the land.

Any truth to this?

Yes - although a bit garbled - it was true (in the RoI) and is true (in NI).

All land in the UK belongs ultimately to the Crown (although the Duchy of Cornwall is semi-detached as ownership rolls up to the Duke of Cornwall (the Prince of Wales)).

That was also the case in the post-independent Free State up until '37 or possibly '48 depending on who did the reckoning at the time. Since then all land in the Republic (or its predecessor) belongs ultimately to the State.

In the case of the UK, it should be pointed out, the Queen has absolute priority over all other UK road users - as the roads really are the "The Queen's Highways" - so if you meet her on a UK road, there is no point in arguing with her about who should have right of way. :-)

PS The other points in the OP are issues for the Oireachtas or Parliament depending on jurisdiction.

Judgement Day · 23-04-2014 08:23AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

AFAIK he owns all of it from where the tide ends down around yawl

he charges to fish from the riverbank.....though this can be got around just outside cappaquin where the road runs right upto the edge of the river

on a side note....surly its about time Ireland ran its own lifeboats as well....I was at a funeral of an old man last year who was a volunteer lifeboat man in Dunmore and he got a medal years ago for bravery and had to go the queen to receive it....he always said he was proud to get it...but resented going to England for it even 50 odd years later:eek:

The clue is in the name - Royal National Lifeboat Institution - and I doubt whether the old man was press-ganged into signing up as a volunteer. But, hey let's burn everything English but their coal. :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred · 23-04-2014 08:54AM

View wrote: »

In the case of the UK, it should be pointed out, the Queen has absolute priority over all other UK road users - as the roads really are the "The Queen's Highways" - so if you meet her on a UK road, there is no point in arguing with her about who should have right of way. :

The two royal protection squad range rovers and eight police motor cyclists tend to ensure an argument never happens though.

KTRIC · 23-04-2014 09:03AM

Since when do we have a queen ??

conorhal · 23-04-2014 09:28AM

Custardpi wrote: »

The OP may possibly be thinking of ground rent. I've heard that in some cases the land may still technically be owned by a British landlord, who could well be aristocratic, though I don't know how common this still is. I'd imagine that at this stage a lot of that historic ground rent would have been bought out where possible anyway.

I'd imagine that this is the basis of the OP's post.

And yes, it does actually happen from time to time. The ground rent on my granny's house is to this day still owed to Lord Lucan.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/landlords-lay-claim-to-property-at-scenic-spot-26674340.html

"VILLAGERS are reeling after English-based landlords staked claim to property that the original owners left almost a century ago.
Several locals in Rosses Point, Co Sligo, received a solicitor's letter telling them they had 28 days to hand over property to people they had never met.
The letters come from shareholders of the original owners of the property ground rent, the Middleton Estate, most of whose family departed Ireland up to 90 years ago."

Up until the 1980's the state was still paying ground rent to English and American landlords on the very property the founding fathers of our state stood outside to read the proclamation of independence, yes, the GPO.

Frankly such arangemets are rare though and not worth much cash, though it's a legal loophole that should have long ago been closed.

23-04-2014 09:33AM

My mam inherited a house when she was 20 from her granny who had it 60 years and when my mam was 39 there was a knock on the door and who was it only her landlord - queen Liz. Lizzy came in and chucked all my Mam's stuff in the garden, except for her silver teapot and china cups, she kept them and went to make herself tea but she realised that she had chucked out the kettle so went next door and borrowed a kettle and some cucumber sammiches and then came back to my Mam's old house and made tea but she said tetleys is better than Barry's so I think she might be crazy.

topper75 · 23-04-2014 09:42AM

She reputedly owns the foreshores up to the high tide marks on both Lough Foyle and Carlingford Lough, or at least believes she does. The Irish government believe otherwise. They agree not to pick at the sensitive political scab. I googled this with no satisfactory results. Anyone clued in?

Arthur Beesley · 23-04-2014 09:46AM

Slicemeister wrote: »

Roll it there Roisin.

Snots the story?

topper75 · 23-04-2014 09:49AM

OK found two links finally:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/queens-landlord-blocks-plan-for-sewage-disposal-29166103.html

http://www.craicon.com/do-the-britsih-crown-estates-own-lough-foyle-up-to-the-high-tide-line/

mrsbyrne · 23-04-2014 10:02AM

Lapin wrote: »

Yep.

I bought my house 8 years ago.

On the deeds it says I have to meet the Queen on Tuesday 16th of June 2105 after the last race at Royal Ascot and hand her back the keys.

Must remember to book the day off work.

Don't forget to wear a cap that you can doff

Does The Queen Still Own Ireland?

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