life

RoboRat · 17-04-2014 01:31PM

when I was a child you basically got fed, went to school, and played with you friends, and maybe went out on Sunday afternoon with you parents and that was it parents weren't hovering over you wondering about good schools or nurturing you self esteem and happiness.

Sounds like my sons life today

If a child was raised today the way I was it would be considered neglect

I agree that the world has gone PC mad at times but I raise my son the way I was raised.

Another is the change from the idea of having a job to the idea of having a career (which of course must be fulfilling and make you happy)

A career is just another name for a job, much the same way as flats became apartments

Then there is the pressure to look a certain way, have a certain type of house (in an area with good school and miles away from any hint of antisocial behaviour) along with that relationships with you partner should be mutely emotionally, mentally and sexually fulfilling all the time. After all that you should be a perfect parent or you will be judged harshly.

I'm 37 and that was the norm when I was at school so not changed much really.

I think you are looking to deep OP, people always look at their own childhood with rose tinted glasses. I always remember this quote to put everything into perspective:

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers"

Socrates (not the Brazilian footballer!)

17-04-2014 01:35PM

Nurturing a healthy sense of self esteem and realising talents are good things, as is being involved in your kids edumaction.

I know some kids who have an activity planned for every free second, and instead of playing with friends, they have carefully orchestrated play dates with parents in constant view. I know in the past kids went out to play after breakfast and weren't expected back until dinner, but the pendulum belongs somewhere between the two extremes imo, or they'll never learn to amuse themselves or develop independence. Important skills in themselves.

17-04-2014 01:36PM

bluewolf wrote: »

She is having nostalgia for times when "parents weren't nuturing your self esteem or happiness".
Firstly I don't know if that is true and secondly, why... would she prefer that

I am not saying one is better that the other, I don't think anyone can say that. I am saying that life for a lot of people today is very complex in a way it never was in the past, accesses to information all day every alone is making life vastly more complicated. I am not saying the way I was parented was better that todays ways of doing things, but it was not as complex as parenting is today.

eisenberg1 · 17-04-2014 01:41PM

Wicklowrider wrote: »

. Creche ? is that something you put chocolate sauce on?

No, its a car accident in Foxrock:D

17-04-2014 01:43PM

mariaalice wrote: »

I am not saying one is better that the other, I don't think anyone can say that. I am saying that life for a lot of people today is very complex in a way it never was in the past, accesses to information all day every alone is making life vastly more complicated. I am not saying the way I was parented was better that todays ways of doing things, but it was not as complex as parenting is today.

Previous generations had bigger families, so the investment in each child in a family of seven kids was much smaller than the individual investment in a family of two kids. Herding and raising seven kids was probably every bit as complicated as people have made raising two kids today.

The world is more complicated anyway, there are more obstacles for kids to negotiate, like greater educational expectation, higher competition for work, social media and it's possible pitfalls (remember Slane Girl?). It's not necessarily the parents making it more complicated, it's parents responding to greater complications and expectations. There's more to learn, more to do, and less certainty about everything. Greater awareness of crime, propelled by moral panic is a big issue with the helicoptering.

17-04-2014 01:48PM

Candie wrote: »

Previous generations had bigger families, so the investment in each child in a family of seven kids was much smaller than the individual investment in a family of two kids. Herding and raising seven kids was probably every bit as complicated as people have made raising two kids today.

The world is more complicated anyway, there are more obstacles for kids to negotiate, like greater educational expectation, higher competition for work, social media and it's possible pitfalls (remember Slane Girl?). It's not necessarily the parents making it more complicated, it's parents responding to greater complications and expectations. There's more to learn, more to do, and less certainty about everything. Greater awareness of crime, propelled by moral panic is a big issue with the helicoptering.

You have explained it better that I could

and thats only one aspect of life, on the other had we are living longer and have better health care maybe that balances things a bit.

orangesoda · 17-04-2014 01:53PM

yes, i believe i would have fitted in more in medieval times, basing your life on trying to take over the neighbouring O'Donnells lands

OldNotWIse · 17-04-2014 02:04PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Um... good for them

Yes it is. Good for me too

OldNotWIse · 17-04-2014 02:08PM

Candie wrote: »

Previous generations had bigger families, so the investment in each child in a family of seven kids was much smaller than the individual investment in a family of two kids. Herding and raising seven kids was probably every bit as complicated as people have made raising two kids today.

The world is more complicated anyway, there are more obstacles for kids to negotiate, like greater educational expectation, higher competition for work, social media and it's possible pitfalls (remember Slane Girl?). It's not necessarily the parents making it more complicated, it's parents responding to greater complications and expectations. There's more to learn, more to do, and less certainty about everything. Greater awareness of crime, propelled by moral panic is a big issue with the helicoptering.

Good post. The sad thing about helicoptering is that statistically, the monster is more likely to be someone known and trusted by the family and often, its just about luck. The likes of Jamie Bolger who was snatched when his mother turned for 2 seconds for example. Parents always try to blame other parents for irresponsible parenting when these things happen, but its usually an attempt to distinguish themselves, so they can pretend it will never happen to them.

17-04-2014 02:13PM

Candie, that's a very good point are we making it more complex for ourselves or are we responding to a more a more complex environment around us.

There are no wrong or rights in all this its not that sort of question.

Adamantium · 17-04-2014 02:29PM

I was never told what to as a kid and oddly enough I drifted towards being disciplined all of my own accord.

My parents said they didn't want me to hauled around to every activity that they wanted me to go, as they saw alot of that with regards to GAA and the like, but were than happy too if I wanted to.

I remember wondering "are these kids enjoying it, or are they there to live out their parents wishes"

The stuff I really like, I really like and I am enthusiastic in it, rather than what a lot of people who seem feel expected (by their own admission) to be "wowed" on simplistic inane drivel.

playedalive · 17-04-2014 02:32PM

Candie wrote: »

The world is more complicated anyway, there are more obstacles for kids to negotiate, like greater educational expectation, higher competition for work, social media and it's possible pitfalls (remember Slane Girl?). It's not necessarily the parents making it more complicated, it's parents responding to greater complications and expectations. There's more to learn, more to do, and less certainty about everything. Greater awareness of crime, propelled by moral panic is a big issue with the helicoptering.

This.

Definitely the world comes across as more complex. Particularly for young people these days (well I say this as a twenty something). I have definitely found the world a very confusing place. I think it is due to so many possibilities out there than before. Social media is definitely one where our way of communicating is more artificial, in the sense that we don't communicate emotion or feelings like we do in spoken language. We can easily construe meaning from things and misunderstanding of message can spiral out of control. Sure, these days, we hear about 'viral attacks' on social media in relation to celebrities. Whether that is intentional or meaning is construed and people respond in their own way.

Then, there is a better awareness of other facets of the human condition, such as mental health and sexuality. Things that usually weren't commonplace to talk about are now so commonplace and so much can be found on the internet and from different people. As a gay man myself, it's amazing how open people are to sexuality these days to the extent that people explore the grey areas of sexuality and that you can be attracted to both genders, people without specific genitalia, etc. Similarly, mental health is less of a taboo issue and people communicate their feelings and we can understand how our thought processes can be so complex and difficult to cope with.

Then, the idea of getting a job and succeeding in the employment market is so diverse and confusing. Gone be the days that people want to bother wanting to take you on and train you up (unless it's a really niche job that has no cognate qualification/expertise). It's not enough to show that you're hardworking and have certain talents. You need to have certain qualifications and demonstrate work experience to boot. Particularly when you're young, it can just be so demoralising.

Hell Ram · 17-04-2014 02:32PM

cian68 wrote: »

Children today will grow up thinking their childhood was a simple time when they just went to school and played with their friends.

...via Xbox Live.

FullblownRose · 17-04-2014 02:39PM

It's different, it's changed, it's actually better now. People are more enlightened and taking a much more active role in their childrens lives instead of delegating their education to the school and keeping them out from under their feet- instead they are enjoying participating in their childrens education.

FullblownRose · 17-04-2014 02:40PM

It sounds like some people are bewildered about it though..hm

eisenberg1 · 17-04-2014 02:43PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

It's different, it's changed, it's actually better now. People are more enlightened and taking a much more active role in their childrens lives instead of delegating their education to the school and keeping them out from under their feet- instead they are enjoying participating in their childrens education.

Not strictly true, some people always did that, and some don't do it now.

snaphook · 17-04-2014 02:49PM

The human way is to take very simple concepts and if they are deemed important then they must be made incredibly complex.

FullblownRose · 17-04-2014 03:08PM

eisenberg1 wrote: »

Not strictly true, some people always did that, and some don't do it now.

You're absolutely right but I believe it is more the culture nowadays so it's more the norm. And I just think it's a good thing.

Spring Onion · 17-04-2014 03:27PM

nelly17 wrote: »

Is that not evolution in action?

No.

eisenberg1 · 17-04-2014 03:27PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

You're absolutely right but I believe it is more the culture nowadays so it's more the norm. And I just think it's a good thing.

Sometimes, for some people, it can be more like a feeling of sensory overload, adverts, people telling you "you have to have X", your life is not complete unless you have such a car/TV. Only recently I have friends telling me "you HAVE to get the Ipad". I am a luddite, I can just about use my laptop, I don't need Ipads, Iphones etc , I just use my phone to text/call, period. Anything else I get is just more sh1t to plug in and charge, I have survived till now without all that. I think of some of the things I did as child, robbing orchards, playing on railway lines, swimming in some very dangerous places etc. Would I let my kids do the same? not in all cases, but you have to learn to climb a tree, and learn that if you fall from a slide or a swing, and get a 2cm gash, you don't have to sue the ass off someone.

Wicklowrider · 17-04-2014 04:02PM

A big problem, imo, for young people is the "one-size-fits-all" education/career path. The person who becomes a great mechanic, a gifted EMT or a successful farmer is not likely to be happy nor competent as a Teacher or Solicitor. The surgeon who saved the spinal cord of a crash victim was highly gifted and very happy in his career.He couldn't do anything to help his patient until the fire fighter rescued the victim. I suspect if you forced the surgeon and fire fighter to drop their roles and take up something else they would not be happy and probably stressed. Everyday I see and deal with people in professional roles who were either forced or chose the wrong career.

OldNotWIse · 17-04-2014 04:23PM

Wicklowrider wrote: »

A big problem, imo, for young people is the "one-size-fits-all" education/career path. The person who becomes a great mechanic, a gifted EMT or a successful farmer is not likely to be happy nor competent as a Teacher or Solicitor. The surgeon who saved the spinal cord of a crash victim was highly gifted and very happy in his career.He couldn't do anything to help his patient until the fire fighter rescued the victim. I suspect if you forced the surgeon and fire fighter to drop their roles and take up something else they would not be happy and probably stressed. Everyday I see and deal with people in professional roles who were either forced or chose the wrong career.

True words. We're fed so much bulls1t in school in this regard. Career guidance counsellors telling us things like "science opens doors"

You have to be A,B or C. You have to pick a box and tick it. When I grow up I want to be:(A/B/C) I have a degree in chemistry that I dont use and probably never will, because I didn't know what I wanted and I was pushed through a door (probably one that science "opened" :rolleyes:) when I wasn't ready to make a choice.

I'm happier now that I have chosen what's right for me, and I am going the right direction, though it's no walk in the park second time around.

17-04-2014 04:29PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Candie, that's a very good point are we making it more complex for ourselves or are we responding to a more a more complex environment around us.

I think both. I think we do have it more difficult than in the past, because in the past there were fewer pathways to personal and social or professional disaster and more certainty, and more support within both families and communities. More difficult, but not worse.

People either went to trades, services or professions, there was less social and economic mobility for sure, but all work was more secure and material expectations were lower. Families were much more likely to live within the same community, and much more likely to share burdens of childcare, rearing, and supervision because of that.

There are so many more obstacles now, and the sort of fear of danger (as in the aforementioned Bulger case) is fostered to moral panic levels by an ever present, self sustaining media. There were no 24 hour news channels with slots to fill 30 years ago, and they have to justify their existence.

There are also logistical differences that have a social impact, we live with fewer people in larger houses, two kids are unlikely to be under your feet the way seven kids in a three up, three down, used to be, so they're less likely to be put out to play for the day. So much is invested in so few offspring, that they become the repository for a families hopes and dreams into the future, and with both parents usually working, it's easier to remotely supervise their safety when you put a ban on playing outside after six.

The upside is that now people have a freedom of movement, of conscience, and of expression unsurpassed in history, and that while it's still got a way to go, society is a much more egalitarian and friendlier place for minorities and the marginalised than ever before.

Everybody thinks there was some golden era for children or families, but I don't think we've ever had it so good as a species.

FullblownRose · 17-04-2014 04:47PM

eisenberg1 wrote: »

Sometimes, for some people, it can be more like a feeling of sensory overload, adverts, people telling you "you have to have X", your life is not complete unless you have such a car/TV. Only recently I have friends telling me "you HAVE to get the Ipad". I am a luddite, I can just about use my laptop, I don't need Ipads, Iphones etc , I just use my phone to text/call, period. Anything else I get is just more sh1t to plug in and charge, I have survived till now without all that. I think of some of the things I did as child, robbing orchards, playing on railway lines, swimming in some very dangerous places etc. Would I let my kids do the same? not in all cases, but you have to learn to climb a tree, and learn that if you fall from a slide or a swing, and get a 2cm gash, you don't have to sue the ass off someone.

Yeah. I don't have an Ipad either and I am a bit of a luddite compared to many people now. So there is a negative aspect to all of this where children might be being limited and restricted to the point where they are deprived of freedom and the chance to explore and earn. That's NOT good. I agree.

ScumLord · 17-04-2014 04:52PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Do you think modern life has got too complex for most people, for example when I was a child you basically got fed, went to school, and played with you friends, and maybe went out on Sunday afternoon with you parents and that was it parents weren't hovering over you wondering about good schools or nurturing you self esteem and happiness.

Things are just different. Life wasn't simpler back in any day, the work loads just to accomplish the simplest tasks were immense.

When it comes to the social side of things we may think we're overloaded with social activities but people 20, 50, 1000 years ago had the same desire for social outlets. There may even have been more pressure on social situations back then too. Being social in the right way could could elevate your social status opening up opportunities. Today your social skills don't need to be as keen because the people you talk to are more accepting of social mistakes or flaws. Go back a few hundred years and saying the wrong thing could get you killed. That's a big pressure to follow the heard, more so than seeing beautiful people in magazines.

Society is just changing so rapidly these days, there hasn't been a time in the past 200 years where one generation has lived the same lifestyle as their parents, not like going back 10,000 years where one big technology would come in and we wouldn't see another one for maybe another 200 years. Technology has been changing lifestyles generation on generation and it shows no sign of stopping any time soon.

It's always been the case though that human children can instantly adapt to whatever they're born into. It doesn't matter what type of environment we move into or what kind of technology get's invented, if a child is born after the fact it doesn't see the difference and just accepts the world it's born into.

Wicklowrider · 17-04-2014 05:14PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Society is just changing so rapidly these days, there hasn't been a time in the past 200 years where one generation has lived the same lifestyle as their parents

While I understand and agree with your post, I do wonder about the above quote. As recently as the late '70's -early '80's in this country there were given and accepted norms and these norms extended back generations. In your town you were known. As a child if I wandered about, people knew who I was and kept a concerned eye on me. Up to no good and my parents knew about it, in danger and I was helped. This made you AWARE of the community and part of it - you were unlikely to damage property or harm anyone because you BELONGED.This was the same for my parents and my grand parents and back. It is not the same for my sons - no one knows nor cares who they are or what they are up to.Another given was that if young people wanted to, they could apprentice to their relatives or enter family businesses ( businesses that have fallen away to progress - tailors, hardware shops, corner shops and tiny Dairies for examples). Knowing where you were going in life and also where you were coming from had a calming affect - the opposite of stress young people experience today from a young age.

ScumLord · 17-04-2014 05:27PM

Wicklowrider wrote: »

In your town you were known. As a child if I wandered about, people knew who I was and kept a concerned eye on me. Up to no good and my parents knew about it, in danger and I was helped. This made you AWARE of the community and part of it - you were unlikely to damage property or harm anyone because you BELONGED.

That's probably true up to a point but my parents generation did go through social upheaval, my mother would probably say she had a much different lifestyle to her mother. My grandmother went through war and saw Irish emigrating. Her mother was probably a second class citizen. They had different kind of hardships where they probably trusted one neighbour, hated another and both were afraid of what the other one was up too.

Another given was that if young people wanted to, they could apprentice to their relatives or enter family businesses ( businesses that have fallen away to progress - tailors, hardware shops, corner shops and tiny Dairies for examples).

With larger families not every child could become an apprentice in the family business or were let (ladies), that's why children were sent off to become priests or nuns.

Knowing where you were going in life and also where you were coming from had a calming affect - the opposite of stress young people experience today from a young age.

Or, it drove you mad with restlessness.

Hearing stories of exotic lands.

FullblownRose · 17-04-2014 05:33PM

As far as kids playing out goes there is one thing people might not be thinking of and its relevant to my family other nice kids to play with and have around for company, and of course safety in numbers. What if you live in an estate where most of the houses are rented out and neighbours are transient, they come and go every year or two and there are no other young families with kids for yours to befriend or they are just unpleasant kids you don't want yours to be near or who are unfriendly and unwelcoming to your kids. A lot of the time it is luck when you grow up with nice kids nearby. Maybe community is on the decine. Maybe nice-ness is.

Pumpkinseeds · 17-04-2014 06:09PM

I think the major change is that the pace of life is much faster now. There's 24 hour news coverage, most of us use our mobiles like they're an extra limb and people work more unsociable hours than we used to, basically we don't really switch off properly.

As for houses and aspirational living, when I was a kid my parents and most of the kids in the neighbourhoods parents got things bit by bit. Credit was higher purchase for a sofa or stuff like that. Holidays if you got one, was a week with your parents at a relatives house, a few days by the sea in a caravan was considered thrilling.

Now we're bombarded with ads for aspirational living that tells us we should have perfect homes, which we own, with perfect furnishings and perfect everything, as well as perfect kids, a perfect spouse, the perfect body and of course, at least 2 expensive cars in the driveway. We're supposed to feel like failures if we can't afford all of these things.

A lot of modern stress is down to people not being able to acheive the aspirational style of living that the media portrays as normal life, it's not normal for most people.

I'm sure my parents would have loved to have been able to afford that kind of lifestyle back in the 70's/80's, but it wasn't considered the norm then, so that kind of pressure wasn't really an issue.

Zillah · 17-04-2014 08:19PM

Candie wrote: »

Nurturing a healthy sense of self esteem and realising talents are good things, as is being involved in your kids edumaction.

I know some kids who have an activity planned for every free second, and instead of playing with friends, they have carefully orchestrated play dates with parents in constant view. I know in the past kids went out to play after breakfast and weren't expected back until dinner, but the pendulum belongs somewhere between the two extremes imo, or they'll never learn to amuse themselves or develop independence. Important skills in themselves.

When I was growing up in the early 90's we would head off in the morning and go amuse ourselves for the day. And y'know what? We were really bad at it. We'd get really bored and then get into trouble just to have some excitement in the day. We'd climb walls and trespass on private property just to see if we could get a reaction out of someone. Nothing particularly nasty but we were definitely up to no good - because honestly, how much fun can you have kicking a ball or climbing trees?

What I'm saying is that I think I'd have been a much happier kid if my spare time was structured better, with actual activities to take part in. I'd probably have more skills or specific interests now, too.

life

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