Is the art of problem solving a dying art?

gugleguy · 17-04-2014 12:02PM

Quite a few individuals I know have full driving licence. The same folk are not the slightest bit interested and don't want to know what goes on underneath the bonnet where the engine sits. Their knowlege of engine will simply as far as that light on the dashboard which tells them the engine needs a service. And when they have to submit the car for the NCT test - that's right, arrange a service beforehand.

jimgoose · 17-04-2014 12:05PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

...Some parts are put together using special tools now that you can't possibly have unless you work for the company. Cars have specialist software that only an official authorised dealer can have. It even effects simple things like changing the light bulbs are new breaks...

Well, some people can make tools. It's true that the VAG group, for example, have taken to using ribe/Polydrive fasteners a lot, but this tooling is easy to get. And at least the core powertrain OBD-II stuff is standardized and open under EU statute.

seamus · 17-04-2014 12:27PM

KeithTS wrote: »

Based on this, yes the art of solving a problem is dead. Googling is great but hardly problem solving.

Well it can be to a certain extent. Few problems are formulaic, i.e. "If X happens, fix it by doing Y", and often a google search will bring up something which explains the mechanism behind the problem and suggest possible solutions.
This is the essence of problem-solving; understanding the cause allows you to theorise potential solutions.

I believe there is a problem with the way we teach children to handle problems, both in real life and in the education system. With the exception of the math-based sciences, the majority of education is about providing information or a process and then learning to memorise and repeat it.

This worked in the past, where the majority of jobs were formulaic and involved manually repeating a process over and over all day, then going home.
Modern work is not like this. If a process is manual and repeatable, it will be automated.
The modern world requires the ability to adapt your existing knowledge to deal with new challenges; the essence of problem-solving; but we don't really practice this at all in our education system.

Even the maths-based sciences are suffering from this a bit as exams are dumbed down so that a student who knows the process for performing integral maths, for example, learns to recognise when a question requires integral maths, and then repeat that process. They don't actually learn why they are doing integral maths and what they are describing, they are mindlessly applying a documented process to a formulaic issue, and are therefore not "solving" any maths problem.

The entire way we educate people needs to move away from a "tick all the right boxes and get a prize" model to one where you are challenged to think about what it is you're doing.

There's a picture going around the web making fun of programming books where they describe a relatively simple concept and then the "now try this problem" exercise is a couple of steps above the example in difficulty. In reality this is the correct way to educate. Having someone do something they already know how to do, doesn't improve their education. You need to constantly challenge them to do something that's just slightly beyond their current level of ability. That's how you learn. And it's how you learn to solve problems without immediately running to someone else for help.

gugleguy · 17-04-2014 12:32PM

More and more, Irish Society, especially prefers to be SPOON - FED.

mikom · 17-04-2014 12:36PM

So many poster on thread I want to reply to but I don't know how to multi-quote..............

kneemos · 17-04-2014 12:38PM

Some people like to delegate the fiddly stuff.

RoboRat · 17-04-2014 01:24PM

Based on this, yes the art of solving a problem is dead. Googling is great but hardly problem solving. Nor is getting toast out of a toaster.

Google is there so I use it, its a quick way figuring out how to solve the problem but it doesn't solve the problem.

I think it's a combination of a lot of things to be honest. As one poster said, parents are not there to develop these skills. Another is how society has evolved with technology to expect things to be done right now without having the patience to actually do it. Consumer products are not as durable as they used to be but that is also used as an excuse.

When I was a kid I used to do airfix kits and the likes. Lego was a huge part of my upbringing as was being outside and making **** with stuff I found such as finding wood scraps and making something with my dads tools.

Even kids who get punctures nowadays head straight to Halfords or their local bike shop to change the tyre rather than getting out a puncture repair kit.

I will always try to fix something myself and if I can't then I will look for help. There are far too many people who once they encounter a problem are quick to pass it to somebody else because they have 'a knack'... its akin to telling the kid who's crap at football that they are a great goalie just so they voluntarily go between the sticks!

lostboy75 · 17-04-2014 01:30PM

"Is the art of problem solving a dying art?"
there must be some way to figure out the answer to this? can anyone help me?

kippy · 17-04-2014 01:32PM

RoboRat wrote: »

I think that people nowadays cant seem to take a bit of initiative and try to figure out a problem before they call for help. Once it doesn't work or there is an issue they cant seem to at least try and fix it. Several examples from this week alone:

(1) Had to do a 120 km round trip to fix a till, I am not qualified to fix such things but 'I seem to have knack' in other words, I actually try. The problem was that the till lead wasn't connected.
(2) Told the washing machine was broken when the filter had just blocked. A simple google search of the make/ model and problem told me as much and also explained how to fix it.
(3) Toast caught in the toaster... can't get it out. I unplugged it, turned it upside down and quite easily freed the imprisoned toast.
(4) Can't install outlook, I managed to do it quite simply by just going through the auto set-up wizard.
(5) Sky not working yet when I google what to do, I just switched it off, unplugged and when it restarted it was fine.

There are loads more instances, even people on these boards can't seem to google stuff!

You should embrace this. The dimbing down of the world presents opportunities for those with IQ's above 100 and a bit of cop on.
I have a job specificilly because people cant solve problems. Like a lot of us I would say.

gugleguy · 17-04-2014 01:32PM

lostboy75 wrote: »

"Is the art of problem solving a dying art?"
there must be some way to figure out the answer to this? can anyone help me?

Ok lostboy, put your bib on. are you sitting comfortably in your highchair?

RoboRat · 17-04-2014 01:38PM

Even the maths-based sciences are suffering from this a bit as exams are dumbed down so that a student who knows the process for performing integral maths, for example, learns to recognise when a question requires integral maths, and then repeat that process. They don't actually learn why they are doing integral maths and what they are describing, they are mindlessly applying a documented process to a formulaic issue, and are therefore not "solving" any maths problem.

OK, this actually strikes a chord with me. In school I hated maths and I couldn't quite understand it because I wanted to know the real life application and not just the method. In order for me to understand something, I have to be able to put this into a real life scenario and then work it out, I need to be able to see the path to the answer and its application for it to make sense otherwise it was just a jumble of numbers. I was failing maths until I got an excellent teacher who embraced me and was able to explain it to me and then I went from F's to B's.

Lyaiera · 17-04-2014 01:40PM

I think there's a big fear of breaking complex things. My father is terrified by computers. He uses Skype to talk to my sister abroad and if something he doesn't know about comes up he either ignores it or calls my brother or me. I've showed him how to do things, and I've tried to explain the logic behind how the OS and software interface works but he still won't do anything he knows explicitly how to do. And I think that's because he's afraid he'll break something or do irreparable damage to the computer.

I've explained to him multiple that he doesn't know enough about computers to break one. Short of dropping it he couldn't damage a computer if he wanted to. Sure he might get a virus or two but he doesn't use the laptop for anything sensitive and generally he doesn't go near anywhere online that would have a virus. But despite all that he's still afraid that something he will do will stop the laptop from working. I've even had him deliberately mess up software and shown him how it's easy to set it back to the way it was but he still won't mess with anything.

If people were less afraid of breaking things, and realised that a lot of the time it takes specialist knowledge to damage something beyond repair I think we'd have a lot more people willing to go down their own problem solving route.

nelly17 · 17-04-2014 01:42PM

I'm Stumped

Renegade Mechanic · 17-04-2014 01:42PM

mike65 wrote: »

I have never called out a man to fix something in my house (but I have to the car - modern auto electrics are designed not to be fixed by mortals).

Aye. The "transcending" ceremony was on our Fás apprenticeship. Now automatic doors wont open for me:(

KyussBishop · 17-04-2014 01:44PM

Due to computer programming, I'd say it's more prevalent than ever - just focused on different things.

Programming for years, gives you a certain amount of bloody-minded persistence, when it comes to problem solving - given how big a pain in the ass a lot of programming is (given that a lot of it is bugfixing - which sometimes involves incredibly intransigent problem solving, that demands a lot of persistence).

Critical thinking + problem solving + persistence = win.

I'd agree about our education system: Teaching the exam is an inherently bad way to teach (and it turns potentially fascinating subjects, into utterly boring crap/recitation), and forcing people to waste their time on subjects like Irish is (cumulatively, over most of a century) probably one of the biggest wastes of intellectual potential/effort and time in the countries history, which likely has a measurably negative economic impact.

Replace it with teaching dedicated towards critical thinking instead, and encourage people to learn how to think for themselves properly, and teach them in a way that actually interests them in (what are usually very interesting...) subjects - not just how to memorize and recite established/unquestioned answers, to exam questions.

RoboRat · 17-04-2014 01:44PM

I think there's a big fear of breaking complex things.

That's understandable but a lot of problems are not complex and you just need to show a bit of initiative to solve them.

I have a certain set of procedures that I implement such as if its electrical and not working, is it plugged in correctly. You could be amazed at how many times I have 'fixed' something by just making sure it was plugged in properly.

lostboy75 · 17-04-2014 01:48PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

I think there's a big fear of breaking complex things. My father is terrified by computers. He uses Skype to talk to my sister abroad and if something he doesn't know about comes up he either ignores it or calls my brother or me. I've showed him how to do things, and I've tried to explain the logic behind how the OS and software interface works but he still won't do anything he knows explicitly how to do. And I think that's because he's afraid he'll break something or do irreparable damage to the computer.

I agree with this, i also get the calls from my parents, aunts uncles etc.
and it is a preceived complexity that stop them from doing things most times. 9/10 times they say they cant do something, you ask did you try and most times they say they yes did. so you talk them through it, they ask so what do i do now, well what does it tell you to do? try doing that then.
my Job is 80% about finding the right solution to a problems, its what makes it interesting,

donegal__road · 17-04-2014 01:49PM

The motor industry is continually safeguarding themselves against people taking the initiative to do things for themselves.

Gone will be the days when joe public can change a blown headlight bulb on a new car. On many cars 131 upward, you have to break the service seal to access the back of the light casing.. now you have to bring it to a registered dealer to do it for you, and changing a light bulb will now cost you €50.

geeksauce · 17-04-2014 01:51PM

2 of the 5 problems listed in the OP were solved by googling it, but isn't googling something actually calling for help. I wouldn't consider it problem solving, actual problem solving would be fixing it without resorting to the Internet.

RoboRat · 17-04-2014 01:54PM

2 of the 5 problems listed in the OP were solved by googling it, but isn't googling something actually calling for help. I wouldn't consider it problem solving, actual problem solving would be fixing it without resorting to the Internet.

How so? Its the same as looking at a manual. To solve a problem you need to be faced with a problem and then fix it. Google doesn't fix it, you take the initiative to search for a solution and then implement it. Sometimes there may be multiple variations of how to solve the problem and you need to work out which one is the right solution.

Renegade Mechanic · 17-04-2014 01:54PM

donegal__road wrote: »

The motor industry is continually safeguarding themselves against people taking the initiative to do things for themselves.

Gone will be the days when joe public can change a blown headlight bulb on a new car. On many cars 131 upward, you have to break the service seal to access the back of the light casing.. now you have to bring it to a registered dealer to do it for you, and changing a light bulb will now cost you €50.

Where on earth can 50 quid be charged for a light bulb? There are a small few cars that require bumper removal, then light removal before access to the bulb is possible but you wouldn't dare ask the owner for 50 quid for the 5 euro bulb!:eek:

RoboRat · 17-04-2014 01:58PM

Where on earth can 50 quid be charged for a light bulb? There are a small few cars that require bumper removal, then light removal before access to the bulb is possible but you wouldn't dare ask the owner for 50 quid for the 5 euro bulb!

I thought that the new LED lights like on the Audi's cost a small fortune to replace (€250 or so)? Might be wrong on that though...

Adamantium · 17-04-2014 01:59PM

Some of my fondest, strong memories are me in the garage on a cold winters night with snow on the ground putting together, and sweating over engineering and woodwork projects and deadlines that were forever extended, and pulling apart friends PS2's with small headed screwdrivers to get them working again and us discussing for hours little tricks we found (this was before widespread internet useage)

Wouldn't take them back for the world, one of the most satisfying feelings in the world, bar none.

Particularly for guys, I think there is something inbuilt and feels so right when we're problem solving and leading.

Amirani · 17-04-2014 01:59PM

RoboRat wrote: »

How so? Its the same as looking at a manual. To solve a problem you need to be faced with a problem and then fix it. Google doesn't fix it, you take the initiative to search for a solution and then implement it. Sometimes there may be multiple variations of how to solve the problem and you need to work out which one is the right solution.

Absolutely. Problem solving generally involves doing some research into the mechanics of the problem. Google can be just as worthy a source as manuals or peer-reviewed journals if it helps you to work out how to solve the problem.

jimgoose · 17-04-2014 02:00PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

Due to computer programming, I'd say it's more prevalent than ever - just focused on different things...

I'll say. Any programmer worth his/her salt will happily spend three days using a computer to solve a problem that would have taken ten minutes by hand. :pac::pac::pac:

donegal__road · 17-04-2014 02:00PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Where on earth can 50 quid be charged for a light bulb? There are a small few cars that require bumper removal, then light removal before access to the bulb is possible but you wouldn't dare ask the owner for 50 quid for the 5 euro bulb!:eek:

it happened a neighbour last week, she drives a 141 not-sure-what. The bumper had to come off alright, but €50 is what the garage charged. Her husband was giving out that it wasn't a straight forward job that you could do yourself.

Renegade Mechanic · 17-04-2014 02:01PM

RoboRat wrote: »

I thought that the new LED lights like on the Audi's cost a small fortune to replace (€250 or so)? Might be wrong on that though...

Oh! I thought he was talking about ordinary incandescent bulbs, anything else is pricey alright

Renegade Mechanic · 17-04-2014 02:04PM

donegal__road wrote: »

it happened a neighbour last week, she drives a 141 not-sure-what. The bumper had to come off alright, but €50 is what the garage charged. Her husband was giving out that it wasn't a straight forward job that you could do yourself.

That was a brave decision by the garage, charging their labour rate on a bukb... Most absorb the labour costs and take the hit. Particularly nasty jobs would be 25-30 quid at the most and.

B.A._Baracus · 17-04-2014 02:17PM

Op makes a point.

I am friends with a couple of Nigerian people and they really opened my eyes up a few years ago because in Ireland we have this weird mentality that if something is broken we simply buy a new one or if something is old we replace.

Of course it depends on the item. Not talking about your car :pac: But washing machines, microwaves, "old" pc's, "old" phones, etc. Alot of Nigerian people over here ship things back home and sell on. The mentality over there is if something is broke you fix it.

But of course within saying that Ireland is a rip off. Say my microwave just stopped working. If I wanted to fix it it would probably cost 80 euro :rolleyes: Sure i'd get a new one for 60 euro :pac:

Lyaiera · 17-04-2014 02:21PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I am friends with a couple of Nigerian people and they really opened my eyes up a few years ago because in Ireland we have this weird mentality that if something is broken we simply buy a new one or if something is old we replace.

I think it's partly the cost of repairing things. Look at the amount of sewing/repair places that have opened over the past few years. People are repairing their clothes because it makes economic sense.

Is the art of problem solving a dying art?

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