Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Las Malvinas.
Options
Comments
-
Trying to change history ?
At post no. 69 you saidThe Diabolical Monocle wrote: ».......
Why didn't you mention the hms victoria, or any of the ships those crappy a-4s sunk ??
At post #71 I introduced the question of the AAF's weapons people to fuse bombs properly in the context of competence............
OK you got me - the databases I have access to don't have any info on a HMS Victoria being sunk by a sub or an A4........care to link to it?
The last recorded use of 'HMS Victoria' was in the 19th C - but maybe you have access to special information, the rest of us don't.
As for what the Skyhawks achieved.....
They damaged HMS Glasgow, HMS Argonaut, RFA Sir Galahad, RFA Sir Lancelot and RFA Sir Bedivere, HMS Broadsword, and RFA Sir Tristram
They sunk HMS Ardent, HMS Antelope, HMS Coventry, RFA Sir Galahad and HMS Fearless. And, yes, they would've sunk more if they fused their bombs properly - which goes to show how incompetent they were when still as late as the 8th of June they were still fusing their bombs incorrectly.
.....and the RN were still able to get the ground forces ashore and sustain them there.
But not a single Harrier was lost in air-to-air combat. Six were lost in accidents or to ground fire.
21 A4s were lost in air-to-air combat or to ground fire - that's before you add in the Mirages, the Daggers, the Canberras and even the Hercules that were lost on the Argentinian side.
Are you saying you introduced the issue of HMS Victoria in anticipation of me raising the issue of competence and bomb fusing?????
Jaysus, but you're a good one if you can figure out what posters are going to post before they post it......0 -
By the way, do you want to join our Lotto syndicate.......0
-
Trying to change history ?
At post no. 69 you said
At post #71 I introduced the question of the AAF's weapons people to fuse bombs properly in the context of competence....
Are you saying you introduced the issue of HMS Victoria in anticipation of me raising the issue of competence and bomb fusing?????
Jaysus, but you're a good one if you can figure out what posters are going to post before they post it......
There is no anticipation, you have drifted to a separate topic.
Here is your comment:
"why didn't you mention the Santa Fe - the nuclear submarine the Argentinians have been building for 30+ years"(would you reason this to be an incidence of incompetence, inability to complete a 30 year project)
Here is my retort:
"Why didn't you mention the hms victoria, or any of the ships those crappy a-4s sunk ??"(would you reason this to be an incidence of incompetence, the collision of two battles ships of the same fleet)
Had I been indicating that Victoria was among the ships sunk by a-4s in the falklands conflict I would have said 'any of the other ships those crappy a-4's sunk'.
However, I can understand how it could be misconstrued.
Then again, this is just pedantic in any case.
Lexical semantics I believe its called.
Can you tell me why it interests you so much.0 -
By the way, do you want to join our Lotto syndicate.......
Tell me more.
Speaking of numbers, I see that Argentina has a birth rate of around 1% (16.88 per thousand) and should have about 4 million new citizens by 2020.
On the other hand, from what I've seen of the islands I would guess, in the absence of any oil, that the islands population might increase by 6.
I think if that case did arise, Britain might consider the sense in having a stagnant population requiring 1:1 civilian to soldier population ratio, producing nothing other than animosity from a quickly growing important market. (given that Argentinas huge natural resources are being fully exploited at that future time).0 -
The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »There is no anticipation, you have drifted to a separate topic.
Here is your comment:
"why didn't you mention the Santa Fe - the nuclear submarine the Argentinians have been building for 30+ years"(would you reason this to be an incidence of incompetence, inability to complete a 30 year project)
Here is my retort:
"Why didn't you mention the hms victoria, or any of the ships those crappy a-4s sunk ??"(would you reason this to be an incidence of incompetence, the collision of two battles ships of the same fleet)
Had I been indicating that Victoria was among the ships sunk by a-4s in the falklands conflict I would have said 'any of the other ships those crappy a-4's sunk'.
However, I can understand how it could be misconstrued.
Then again, this is just pedantic in any case.
Lexical semantics I believe its called.
Can you tell me why it interests you so much.
Look, have the good grace to admit that you screwed up and admit you listed HMS Victoria as a casualty of the AAFs bombing efforts.
You can spin it anyway you want, you can try to deflect, obfuscate, provoke, defend, delay or divert but it's pretty clear what you meant and that you really know feck all about that part of the world, the conflict, strategic studies and air and naval power.0 -
Advertisement
-
Viva Las Malvinas.
The sooner these planters are removed the better. I fully support the motion of also stripping them of any wealth they have as reparations.0 -
Viva Las Malvinas.
The sooner these planters are removed the better. I fully support the motion of also stripping them of any wealth they have as reparations.
Pretty pathetic attempt to draw a parallel between Cromwell and the Falklands!
Aren't the 'Argentinians' likewise the descendants of colonists and 'planters'?0 -
Pretty pathetic attempt to draw a parallel between Cromwell and the Falklands!
Aren't the 'Argentinians' likewise the descendants of colonists and 'planters'?
I dunno jawgap. i thought the Ayatollah came up with a well reasoned ant thought out argument. I felt that the points he used to back it up also brought a certain degree of clarity to proceedings.
I also feel there is a desperate need for a sarcasm font, but that's something for another day0 -
Viva Las Malvinas.
The sooner these planters are removed the better. I fully support the motion of also stripping them of any wealth they have as reparations.
Hi Khomeini, good to see you made it to London safely. Shouldn't you be running your Friends-of-DPRK group instead of waving Argentine flags? I'm not so sure that Dear Leader would approve of you touching any flag but that of the DPRK0 -
Mods - please close this interminable and tiresome thread down. Senor d monocle, who has an agenda based on wiki myth and what-ifs, and writing from a washroom in the Argentinian embassy, is no longer even remotely funny.
If Argentina was even remotely interested in acquiring The Falklands by an act of war, they would have tried it by now, especially if they truly are the technologically-superior wonder state that Senor d monocle claims them to be.
Needless to say, they'd get seriously creamed a second time, this time with sub-launched TLAMS to their mainland bases. Fighting a war with planes and ships you don't have, all armed with missiles that are not there, is not the way to win any conflict.
And with 'friends' like Chile, who are GREAT pals with the UK, on the other side, with a really functional army, navy and air force, Argentina would be up sh!t creek indeed. The Chilean army would just love to try out their nice shiny new Leopard 2 tanks on some moving targets.
tac0 -
Advertisement
-
Look, have the good grace to admit that you screwed up and admit you listed HMS Victoria as a casualty of the AAFs bombing efforts.
You can spin it anyway you want, you can try to deflect, obfuscate, provoke, defend, delay or divert but it's pretty clear what you meant and that you really know feck all about that part of the world, the conflict, strategic studies and air and naval power.
I would admit to such a minor and pointless error if I made it.
If you want to think of it in your own terms feel free.0 -
Mods - please close this interminable and tiresome thread down. Senor d monocle, who has an agenda based on wiki myth and what-ifs, and writing from a washroom in the Argentinian embassy, is no longer even remotely funny.
If Argentina was even remotely interested in acquiring The Falklands by an act of war, they would have tried it by now, especially if they truly are the technologically-superior wonder state that Senor d monocle claims them to be.
Needless to say, they'd get seriously creamed a second time, this time with sub-launched TLAMS to their mainland bases. Fighting a war with planes and ships you don't have, all armed with missiles that are not there, is not the way to win any conflict.
And with 'friends' like Chile, who are GREAT pals with the UK, on the other side, with a really functional army, navy and air force, Argentina would be up sh!t creek indeed. The Chilean army would just love to try out their nice shiny new Leopard 2 tanks on some moving targets.
tac
I suppose they could always get the Pope to let slip the dogs of war in the form of the Swiss Guard......0 -
Senor d monocle, who has an agenda based on wiki myth and what-ifs, and writing from a washroom in the Argentinian embassy, is no longer even remotely funny.
Resorting to the ol' ad-homs again.
Just because I dare question something, or hold an opinion different to your own.If Argentina was even remotely interested in acquiring The Falklands by an act of war, they would have tried it by now, especially if they truly are the technologically-superior wonder state that Senor d monocle claims them to be.
I dont consider Argentina to be a tech wonder state, just a country that many might assume isn't as technologically advanced as it is. Its S.Americas most well educated country and has an advanced industrial sector.
There were plans for a high speed rail link there not so long ago, just before the world economic crisis came about. It very nearly began.
2015 for first local rocket/orbital satellite launch iirc.Needless to say, they'd get seriously creamed a second time, this time with sub-launched TLAMS to their mainland bases. Fighting a war with planes and ships you don't have, all armed with missiles that are not there, is not the way to win any conflict.And with 'friends' like Chile, who are GREAT pals with the UK, on the other side, with a really functional army, navy and air force, Argentina would be up sh!t creek indeed. The Chilean army would just love to try out their nice shiny new Leopard 2 tanks on some moving targets.
Chile only has to share a border with their neighbors Argentina for the brief spell of ... pretty much forever.
Thinking that Britain could somehow make Chile jump is a gross error, asking it to -now- help against one of its import partners, a country which must be passed through for anything coming/going from the Atlantic side (extreme south route excepted) is preposterous. Zero Chileans would be willing to die for Britain in such an event. Or willing to harm, or even risk harm to their own country.
(Mercosur has in however, in reality, firmly backed Argentina so Argentina would actually be the one calling on allies)
tac
Separately, I see that the Chagos (ex)islanders recently gave their own support to Argentina. For those unfamiliar the Chagosians were some people, numbering about 2000 (iirc) who were chased off their little home islands by Britain in a case of supreme hypocrisy when taken together with Britains talk/policy on the Malvinas/falklands.
- Monocle0 -
Whatever about knocking this thread on the head, there's certainly some argument to be made for at least consigning it to the Walter Mitty forum.....0
-
Whatever about knocking this thread on the head, there's certainly some argument to be made for at least consigning it to the Walter Mitty forum.....
You dont have to keep coming back for more.
Even at 3 am.
If you dont like the thread just dont come back.
(Incidentally - I had previously been onto a mod asking about how to get the thread closed, before yourself of tac mentioned it. Still might )0 -
The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »You dont have to keep coming back for more.
Even at 3 am.
If you dont like the thread just dont come back.
(Incidentally - I had previously been onto a mod asking about how to get the thread closed, before yourself of tac mentioned it. Still might )
Truth never sleeps!
Or in my case getting up and getting sorted for a day at the AHB means being up at that crazy hour.
Anything you want me to dig out while I'm here?
Tbh I just keep coming back to find out what other bat sh1t crazy stuff you're posting. It's better than the Conspiracy Forum!0 -
Taken in 1989 and posted on Flickr......there are plenty of photos available.....Well the whole incident, including the retreating corvette and the sailor killed thereon is outlined in the "Battle Atlas of the Falklands"Soldados, the Argentine Army Journal describes the Battle Atlas as "a very useful and detailed guide to the day-by-day development of the war" (see their April 200 edition for the full review.Sounds to me like Lt Mills earned his DSC. He took a small, lightly armed force and engaged a superior force, inflicting damage out of all proportion to their size.....sounds like good soldiering to me especially as I don't think he lost any of his men.
The Argentinian Navy, when they captured them, seem to have treated them well, so I assume they thought they'd behaved honourably.....0 -
Truth never sleeps!
Or in my case getting up and getting sorted for a day at the AHB means being up at that crazy hour.
Anything you want me to dig out while I'm here?
Tbh I just keep coming back to find out what other bat sh1t crazy stuff you're posting. It's better than the Conspiracy Forum!
0 -
Truth never sleeps!
Or in my case getting up and getting sorted for a day at the AHB means being up at that crazy hour.
Anything you want me to dig out while I'm here?
Tbh I just keep coming back to find out what other bat sh1t crazy stuff you're posting. It's better than the Conspiracy Forum!
Ah, yes, more flattery.
(you do of course know that post times are listed with every post.... i.e one page back)0 -
ChicagoJoe wrote: »You should post over there buddy, anyone who believes the jingoist British media fairytales of a few Brit infantry men on a shore making a 3,000 ton Corvette class ship armed with medium- and small-caliber guns, surface-to-surface missiles, surface-to-air missiles, and antisubmarine weapons ' retreat ' way out into the oceanChicagoJoe wrote: »You should post over there buddy, anyone who believes the jingoist British media fairytales of a few Brit infantry men on a shore making a 3,000 ton Corvette class ship armed with medium- and small-caliber guns, surface-to-surface missiles, surface-to-air missiles, and antisubmarine weapons ' retreat ' way out into the ocean
If you think I've posted anything you think is wrong maybe you could post something up that counters it........other than your ill informed, ignorant opinions. Or do you lack the capability to dig out that kind of rebuttal information.......or is what I've posted beyond deconstruction because it's true?0 -
Advertisement
-
The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »Ah, yes, more flattery.
(you do of course know that post times are listed with every post.... i.e one page back)
Not sure what your point is but yes I do know post times are listed.
And I'm glad you take such an interest in my circadian cycle......
I was up from about 0330 to get the first flight to Stansted. I'm back tonight, but don't worry I have a lifted sorted from the airport......0 -
ChicagoJoe wrote: »You should post over there buddy, anyone who believes the jingoist British media fairytales of a few Brit infantry men on a shore making a 3,000 ton Corvette class ship armed with medium- and small-caliber guns, surface-to-surface missiles, surface-to-air missiles, and antisubmarine weapons ' retreat ' way out into the ocean
You sure do love to throw that old doozy about don't youThe jingoism is that obvious so I'm not going to explainFrom what I seen on TV yesterday, it's little more than jingoism of a country
Those republican stories you heard while growing up in the USA must have really had an affect :rolleyes:0 -
You sure do love to throw that old doozy about don't you
Actually, Jingoism is hugely relevant to the Malvinas question.
Its whats held back reason to an extent so far.
Having more broadsheet editors like Peter Preston (Guardian)and MP's like Corbyn and Galloway, people who are willing to publicly address the issue, can only be a good thing.
Someone must drag the 'express' or 'sun' or other tabloid readers back into the 21st century.
When the issue gets addressed the British public can see that if you've got nobel peace prize winners and progressive politicians on one side, and the rags on the other side ... that maybe its time to follow the UN's requests and sit down and talk it out bi-laterally.0 -
The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »Actually, Jingoism is hugely relevant to the Malvinas question.
Its whats held back reason to an extent so far.
Having more broadsheet editors like Peter Preston (Guardian)and MP's like Corbyn and Galloway, people who are willing to publicly address the issue, can only be a good thing.
Someone must drag the 'express' or 'sun' or other tabloid readers back into the 21st century.
When the issue gets addressed the British public can see that if you've got nobel peace prize winners and progressive politicians on one side, and the rags on the other side ... that maybe its time to follow the UN's requests and sit down and talk it out bi-laterally.
Let's say for fun that the Argentinian president gave up all rights to the Falkland islands. How long do you think it would take for that particular political party to get back into power?
Now think the exact same for Great Britain, The political party that gives away the Falkland islands is a dead and buried political party for decades to come. This and the fact that the Falkland island residents wish to remain under British rule is why no British prime minister will ever give them up.0 -
Let's say for fun that the Argentinian president gave up all rights to the Falkland islands. How long do you think it would take for that particular political party to get back into power?
Now think the exact same for Great Britain, The political party that gives away the Falkland islands is a dead and buried political party for decades to come. This and the fact that the Falkland island residents wish to remain under British rule is why no British prime minister will ever give them up.
Thats generally true for present day thinking, (yet less so than in earlier decades) which as I was saying has been shadowed by tabloid jingoism for some time now.
I think the more educated the British public become on the topic the more that way of thinking will change. Certainly the triumphalism and 'gotcha' reactions are lost on the younger generations, they may be the people to ask 'what are we actually doing down there and why and is this wise or foolish'.
Perhaps it wont be seen as losing or giving up an asset but more as solving a long term issue logically.0 -
It's very simple.
1. Argentina will not get the islands back diplomatically by making claims against historical colonialism etc.
2. Argentina will not get the islands back by force.
3. Argentina will not get the islands back through the will of the inhabitants.
Items 1 and 2 are so far out of reach it's not worth talking about. However item 3 is actually worth some consideration. Has anyone stopped to ask WHY the inhabitants voted so strongly to stick with Britain? Lets be fair, "being British" can only be part of it, if Argentina were actually an appealing prospect then maybe the ballot wouldn't be so convincing. Argentina get Las Malvinas, The islanders get what they voted for, and Britain cant stand in the way of democracy.
Argentina is a country not long from narrowly avoiding a second default in 15 years. With Britain there is security and consistency that Argentina cannot offer. Change that playing field and who knows what could happen.
By the way, this one was a personal favorite:The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »The Argentine fleet is not as god awful as you might wish.
A few decades ago they were operating an aircraft carrier.0 -
I did read a blog post somewhere (I may try and dig it out when I'm back on a proper computer) asking why the Argentinian Government doesn't just "love bomb" the Islanders by for example, setting up regular ferry and air services ( even if they have to be subsidised); grants / scholarships for young Islanders to attend university in Buenos Aires; an air ambulance service; better telecoms and internet connection etc etc
The blog, iirc, was written by a British academic.
Of all the rubbish being kicked around it made the most sense to me.0 -
'A few decades ago....'
Hmmmmmmmmm.
Quote - In 1983, the Veinticinco de Mayo was modified to carry the new Dassault Super Étendard jets but soon after problems in her engines largely confined her to port; she was deemed more or less unseaworthy.
Disposal
The Argentine Navy could not procure the funds for a modernization and new engines, leading to decommissioning by 1997. By this time she had already been stripped of various major pieces of equipment that were used as spares for the Brazilian carrier NAeL Minas Gerais, another Colossus-class ship which had been heavily modified in the Netherlands.[5] Finally in 2000, she was towed to Alang, India for scrapping.
Although the Minas Gerais was offered to the Argentine Navy as a replacement in 2000 she was rejected due to her poor condition and high restoration and maintenance costs. Argentine cooperation with Brazil has meant that the naval air wing has continued to operate from the deck of carrier NAe São Paulo during ARAEX exercises and/or touch-and-go landings on US Navy carriers when they are in transit within Argentine coastal waters during Gringo-Gaucho manoeuvres.
Whoopee. Now I'm really worried.
tac0 -
Well yes it is simple when looking at it in its simplest terms.
Britain wont let it go, Argentina cant take it - fairly simple when looked at in those
simplistic terms.
I'd agree with your point number 2. Argentina won't get the islands back through force.
Argentina itself has made it clear that it won't go to war for the islands. That it will
pursue diplomatic channels only (although as I said Arg is strangling the islands
economy).
However, I'd disagree with point 1 (which you'll see here encompasses point 3), I think
with some certainty that in the long term diplomacy will deliver either a
shared/'leaseback offer' territory or a simply Argentine territory.
The option of leaseback was previously discussed between G.Britain and Argentina after
Britain saw quite reasonably that it would be better to have good relations in south
America, a region ripe with potential, than to possess useless isolated islands with a
tiny sparse population. Add to this the negativity factor of not only lost potential
good relations with Argentina, but bad relations with Argentina/Bolivarian countries in
south America.
This well reasoned thinking led whitehall and Nicholas Ridley, Minister of State at the
Foreign Office to consider bargaining with Argentina.
Naturally galtieri scuppered this potential, in a attempt to glorify himself.
And so naturally Britain after winning dug its heels in.
That however was during the 80's. 30 years has passed and a great deal of those who were
around during the 80's have sadly passed on. The present (British) new generation and
future generations will inherit power over this issue, I believe they'll see it
differently.
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/52/The-Falklands-War-
Sunday-Times-Survey.aspx
The above link shows a poll taken around about the time of the conflict in the 80's,
when asked who should determine the British government's long term policy on the
Falkland Islands 72 % respond Britain as a whole, taking the Falkland Islanders' views
into account.
This is surely the natural position for a nation when dealing with an issue which
affects the entire nations foreign relations. I think this will return as the future
British opinion - Britain as a whole determining what should happen with respect to the
islands and foreign relations with Argentina/Mercosur. Rather than havin control over
such a key area for the whole country being left in the hands of 2500 people who
obviously will/must look out for themselves.
The logic will eventually hit the British public that it is pointless to maintain 2500
people on land the size of N.Ireland 14,000 km away and inherit in return only animosity
from a trade block (which includes Brazil) influenced by Argentina, as well as Argentina
itself, which on a side point holds giant lithium deposits found in few other places
worldwide, an essential component for the batteries we'll be using in the future ... but I digress.
A few pages back I posted a copy of a proposal by a British MP that laid out the terms
for sharing the islands. I can see something along those lines occuring again (depending
on the oil situation) as it will seem like the obvious choice to those not motivated by
emotions from the 80's.
Having MPs (and a national broadsheet editor) starting to dare address the topic on tv
is a very early sign of reason being chosen over resentment.
(yes Argentina did operate an aircraft carrier a few decades ago, I think thats an
achievement that few countries can claim and I think they'll manage it again in time)
Argentina's inflation problem wont last forever.
0 -
Advertisement
-
The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
(yes Argentina did operate an aircraft carrier a few decades ago, I think thats an
achievement that few countries can claim and I think they'll manage it again in time)
Think it's time to practice watch you've preached.........The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »Thats probably better suited to an history forum.The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »Well, funny anecdotes from the past, pictures of 80's downed helicopters, rewarding of medals in the 80's for raids carried out by such and such which resulted in whatever, generally belong to stories from the 80's and so to some war history forum.
(They're rich in 80's historic detail, like what might be found on a history forum, along with the referenced war history books)
...........
And it's highly unlikely they'll operate an aircraft carrier again. The cost of naval aviation is escalating and accelerating (according to Van Creveld in Air Power) and is pricing everyone out of the market with the exception of the US, UK, France, India and China. Brazil is teetering and Italy and Spain have opted for scaled down versions.
You need more than the carrier, you need to have enough ships of the right kind to operate it as a carrier battle group and that includes ASW, air defence and auxiliary / replenishment vessels.0
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement