A.A(Alcoholics Anonymous) meetings religious?

gaynorvader · 01-04-2014 06:00PM

sopretty wrote: »

Lol, yes, I think you have missed something!

I think some of you here seem to think that once an addict takes a decision to 'get help', that that's it! It's plain sailing. Off they go to rehab, to come out converted, never to crave a drink or a drug again.

Of course it is high risk!!!!!!! It can kill an addict by causing them to od on relatively small amounts if they use both. Is that high risk? Yes, it is!!!

Another point, nozzferrathoo keeps making the point about alcoholics and AA, and people who 'drop out' so to speak. She/he is ignoring the fact that it is not a pre-prescribed period that you attend for which will 'cure' you. It is a daily and hopefully life-long endeavour. Every day is a risk, almost as risky as the day you first got sober.

marienbad wrote: »

Severe risk of overdose after coming off it.

As far as I can tell that's specifically for heroin, not alcohol though? So unless you are also a heroin user it might be a viable solution/treatment.

marienbad · 01-04-2014 06:57PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

As far as I can tell that's specifically for heroin, not alcohol though? So unless you are also a heroin user it might be a viable solution/treatment.

Not too sure about its use with alcohol, Though there are drugs for that too.

Some would say it gives you a respite but doesn't cure the underlying problem.I would tend to agree with that.

gaynorvader · 02-04-2014 10:03AM

marienbad wrote: »

Not too sure about its use with alcohol, Though there are drugs for that too.

Some would say it gives you a respite but doesn't cure the underlying problem.I would tend to agree with that.

A treatment rather than a cure then.

marienbad · 02-04-2014 12:58PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

A treatment rather than a cure then.

Indeed .

nozzferrahhtoo · 02-04-2014 02:00PM

marienbad wrote: »

I just don't think you really understand the nature of addiction.

I understand it perfectly well thanks. If you want to address something I specifically said then by all means do. But throw away comments like "YOu do not understand" uttered before running away add nothing to any conversation. That is just posturing.

sopretty wrote: »

I think some of you here seem to think....

Do you? Off because I have not seen one person the thread espouse such a position.

sopretty wrote: »

Another point, nozzferrathoo keeps making the point about alcoholics and AA, and people who 'drop out' so to speak.

I do? Where? Not entirely sure which point you are referring to me making exactly. Please clarify.

sopretty wrote: »

She/he is ignoring the fact that it is not a pre-prescribed period that you attend for a specified period of time which will 'cure' you.

He is ignoring no such thing because he has not made any such claim anywhere. Nor is such an assumption implied in a single thing I have written on this thread.

nozzferrahhtoo · 02-04-2014 02:02PM

nagirrac wrote: »

It is the only treatment plan that I know of that allows people with alcohol dependency to keep drinking, rather than striving for abstinance.

Indeed, it was interesting to find in some of their trials that the success rates were HIGHER for the groups that continued drinking moderately than for the groups that stopped altogether.

So it would seem from what results I have seen than not only does this treatment allow users to keep drinking at a low level.... it positively recommends that you do so.

marienbad · 02-04-2014 03:42PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I understand it perfectly well thanks. If you want to address something I specifically said then by all means do. But throw away comments like "YOu do not understand" uttered before running away add nothing to any conversation. That is just posturing.

Do you? Off because I have not seen one person the thread espouse such a position.

I do? Where? Not entirely sure which point you are referring to me making exactly. Please clarify.

He is ignoring no such thing because he has not made any such claim anywhere. Nor is such an assumption implied in a single thing I have written on this thread.

You have shown no evidence of such understanding.

Brian Shanahan · 02-04-2014 05:28PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Why? I couldn't see anything that made it out to be dodgy or high risk, unless you're on opiates while taking it. Did I miss something?

It's dodgy and high risk because the AA have decided it is.

Remember, who needs evidence and scepticism when one has an authority figure to tell them what's right and what's wrong.

sopretty · 02-04-2014 05:33PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It's dodgy and high risk because the AA have decided it is.

Remember, who needs evidence and scepticism when one has an authority figure to tell them what's right and what's wrong.

AA is not an authority figure. It is a group of individuals. There are no rulers (which you seem to take issue with). AA doesn't comment nor hold an opinion on anything controversial basically. AA does not make statements about what they think is right or wrong. Collectively it would be impossible as they are as diverse a group as you could come across.

marienbad · 02-04-2014 06:50PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It's dodgy and high risk because the AA have decided it is.

Remember, who needs evidence and scepticism when one has an authority figure to tell them what's right and what's wrong.

Any link for that Brian ?

nozzferrahhtoo · 03-04-2014 08:24AM

marienbad wrote: »

You have shown no evidence of such understanding.

More throw away cop out remarks is your choice then?

Again if you want to address something I have said that you feel is in error, please do. But general cop out mantras like the one you produce above further the conversation not at all, give me nothing of substance to defend myself or my views against, and merely give you a way to cop out of the conversation. You could copy and paste the same sentence into any thread on this forum and do so just as usefully (that is to say not at all) and making just as much sense (that is to say none at all). You can not rebut anything I am saying so you simply spew throw away phrases that make you feel like you have.

marienbad · 03-04-2014 12:04PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

More throw away cop out remarks is your choice then?

Again if you want to address something I have said that you feel is in error, please do. But general cop out mantras like the one you produce above further the conversation not at all, give me nothing of substance to defend myself or my views against, and merely give you a way to cop out of the conversation. You could copy and paste the same sentence into any thread on this forum and do so just as usefully (that is to say not at all) and making just as much sense (that is to say none at all). You can not rebut anything I am saying so you simply spew throw away phrases that make you feel like you have.

Not at all , plenty of evidence shown to you, but at this point it is obvious yours is an ideological position so nothing can change your stance.

You keep saying it doesn't work but all you have is studies showing different percentages varying from 5 to 31 %.

All the rest - that it is unregulated, placing people at risk, a mixup-gatherum of procedures and meeting etc has been debunked

Those figures are a better result that anything else out there , for now.

So until there is an alternative I am sure AA/NA will continue to function

Brian Shanahan · 03-04-2014 01:39PM

marienbad wrote: »

Any link for that Brian ?

Read the thread, people have asked why AA is against it, and answer came there none (reasonable answers anyway).

marienbad · 03-04-2014 05:34PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Read the thread, people have asked why AA is against it, and answer came there none (reasonable answers anyway).

I have read the thread from the start and have come across no such comments. We are talking about AA being against Naltrexone Antabuse etc ,right ?

roosh · 03-04-2014 11:42PM

Would love to see the efficacy of Nozz's 1 step program: get a hobby!

probably the same efficacy as the 12-step program!

sopretty · 03-04-2014 11:47PM

roosh wrote: »

Would love to see the efficacy of Nozz's 1 step program: get a hobby!

probably the same efficacy as the 12-step program.

apparently the "key" is to..."get a hobby"...let's ignore those who were already part of of a team; bcos joining a team is the key....

You have to get sober and fit enough to join a hobby in the first place.

roosh · 04-04-2014 12:09AM

sopretty wrote: »

You have to get sober and fit enough to join a hobby in the first place.

All you need to do is take up a hobby; if you already have a hobby then...I'm not sure what to do

roosh · 04-04-2014 12:09AM

did I mention "take up a hobby"?

EDIT: don't worry, there's a serious post on the way; I just felt like a giggle at the idea that "the key to giving up alcohol" is to take up a hobby.

gaynorvader · 04-04-2014 10:05AM

roosh wrote: »

Would love to see the efficacy of Nozz's 1 step program: get a hobby!

probably the same efficacy as the 12-step program!

I believe that was his point. Not that a hobby is the key to giving up alcohol, but that it can a useful tool to some people for doing so, much like AA.

nozzferrahhtoo · 07-04-2014 08:22AM

marienbad wrote: »

Not at all , plenty of evidence shown to you

Not on this thread it has not. And certainly not by you.

marienbad wrote: »

but at this point it is obvious yours is an ideological position so nothing can change your stance.

To which position do you refer? My position is simply that the efficacy of AA should be measured more closely to find if it is effective or not. Exactly what part of that are you taking issue with in your rant? It is unclear.

marienbad wrote: »

You keep saying it doesn't work but all you have is studies showing different percentages varying from 5 to 31 %.

Where have I said it does not work? I never did. You are simply on a campaign of making things up now. I said clearly it is going to help SOME people given it has things that are going to help SOME people.... such as it being a social support group and an outlet.

What I am saying is that no one, much less you, has shown a single shred of evidence to support any notion that anything ASIDE from those attributes.... anything that actually makes AA what it is OTHER than just another social support group and outlet.... has had any effect at all.

So I repeat once again my request: Try for once replying to what I have actually said and espoused rather than this fetid need you have to reply to the nozzferrahhtoo that exists no where but in your own over active imagination. Thanks.

nozzferrahhtoo · 07-04-2014 08:22AM

roosh wrote: »

Would love to see the efficacy of Nozz's 1 step program: get a hobby!

So like the user above your choice is to ditch mature adult conversation and misrepresent me by spewing out bile that I never said, never espoused, and never even remotely implied. How nice.

marienbad · 07-04-2014 02:14PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So like the user above your choice is to ditch mature adult conversation and misrepresent me by spewing out bile that I never said, never espoused, and never even remotely implied. How nice.

Mature adult conversation ?? I take it you are joking .Enough said.

marienbad · 07-04-2014 06:06PM

The reality of drug and alcohol addiction in Ireland today

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/why-drug-users-should-be-decriminalised-1.1752911

' There are an estimated 16,000 drug addicts in Ireland and 27 detox beds. Methadone, ideal only as a short-term intervention, has become a cul de sac. And it’s killing people. In 2011 methadone was implicated in 113 deaths, compared with 60 in 2010. In Dublin the so-called greying of methadone shows addicts are getting older and methadone has become a treatment dispensed well into old age. People aren’t getting clean. Without available detox treatment they’re stuck in limbo, with one opioid replacing another. Even when facilities are available, red tape is hampering their effectiveness. Last August, the Journal reported that Keltoi Rehabilitation Unit in Phoenix Park has a 50 per cent success rate (which is huge) in keeping former addicts drug- free. But due to HSE staffing restrictions just eight of its 20 beds were in operation. '

And alcoholism is even worse.

nozzferrahhtoo · 08-04-2014 08:27AM

marienbad wrote: »

Mature adult conversation ?? I take it you are joking .Enough said.

Again a throw away empty post that has nothing to do with the thread. Are you failing in an attempt to start a flame war with someone who is immune to being trolled? Or are you just covering for not having any more points to make despite feeling compelled to continue posting anyway?

At least one of us is going to stay mature and on topic here so I will simply repeat my point. I have not ONCE suggested AA will not help some people or has absolutely no benefit to anyone. My point is more complex than the simplistic misrepresentation you are making of it.

My point is that the things that specifically make AA what it is... that distinguish it from any other social support meetup group.... such as the 12 steps..... no one (much less yourself) has shown even the first iota of even the tiniest bit of support that THOSE things have any beneficial effect whatsoever.

No one. Anywhere. Ever.

That is my point. Now either you can either leave the field.... address my point and rebut it.... agree that I appear to be entirely correct in this point.... or you can continue the attempt to troll and misrepresent and insult. Sadly I fear I know which of the three you are at this point most likely to choose.

mazcon · 08-04-2014 09:07AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

My point is that the things that specifically make AA what it is... that distinguish it from any other social support meetup group.... such as the 12 steps..... no one (much less yourself) has shown even the first iota of even the tiniest bit of support that THOSE things have any beneficial effect whatsoever.

No one. Anywhere. Ever.

That is my point

In my opinion, what makes AA uniquely AA is the fact that it is a fellowship of alcoholics who have all suffered the effects of an active addiction to alcohol. Alcoholics usually suffer from massive guilt and self-esteem issues. The effects of their behaviour reinforce their negative self-belief and in order to escape the reality of their life they numb their feelings with alcohol. The people closest to them beg and plead with them to change their behaviour and often they try to do so but usually they fall back to the old habits and drink again. Inevitably this causes anger and despair in their intimate relationships with more recriminations etc. People who haven't experienced alcohol addiction cannot understand why the alcoholic can't just stop drinking....after all they(the non-alcoholic) can stop so why can't the alcoholic? When the alcoholic finally goes to AA their feelings of self-worth are pretty much on the floor. In the meetings they hear people sharing about behaviour that is as bad or worse than what they have done. When they speak they see understanding and empathy from others who truly understand what they are describing. What they also encounter is a group of people who can spot bull s%%t a mile away and who aren't afraid to challenge it. So now the alcoholic is in an environment that is simultaneously supportive, empathic and challenging. If they stay and get honest with themselves first and with the other members then they begin to accept their brokenness and humanity. From there they begin to see that sobriety is possible especially if they have found a sponsor who is in good recovery themselves and who is supportive through the early days of recovery.
What is truly different about AA is that there is no-one there shouting WHY DON'T YOU JUST STOP? They understand that "just stopping" is not so simple.
Back in the 1960s Carl Rogers, the founder of Person Centred Counselling theory claimed that three things were both necessary and sufficient for therapeutic change to take place;empathy, unconditional positive regard and congruence. All three attributes are to be found in an AA meeting. He also claimed that it was the nature of the relationship between counsellor and client that was most important. The relationships between AA members shares that warm, unconditional acceptance and in my opinion those are the elements that create an environment of change and that make AA what it is.

nozzferrahhtoo · 08-04-2014 09:29AM

mazcon wrote: »

In my opinion, what makes AA uniquely AA is the fact that it is a fellowship of alcoholics who have all suffered the effects of an active addiction to alcohol.

Then how is that unique to AA? There are many such groups that are not AA. Is their group less valid to you? Is their suffering less valid? Was their addiction less "active"? Who are you to disparage such people by suggesting their groups are any less valid?

Again when I am talking about things unique to AA, I mean exactly that. So if you trot out things, like above, that are the same for every group then you are talking past my point and position entirely.

mazcon wrote: »

People who haven't experienced alcohol addiction cannot understand why the alcoholic can't just stop drinking

Some people perhaps. But a baseless asserted generalisation about ALL such people would be best avoided. One does not _have_ to experience something oneself in order to understand it.

However I see nothing at all in your post that is unique to making AA what it is. You are just describing in general terms ANY such group that get together. Why are these things you just listed unique to AA in your mind?

mazcon · 08-04-2014 09:39AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Then how is that unique to AA? There are many such groups that are not AA. Is their group less valid to you? Is their suffering less valid? Was their addiction less "active"? Who are you to disparage such people by suggesting their groups are any less valid?o

Again when I am talking about things unique to AA, I mean exactly that. So if you trot out things, like above, that are the same for every group then you are talking past my point and position entirely.

Some people perhaps. But a baseless asserted generalisation about ALL such people would be best avoided. One does not _have_ to experience something oneself in order to understand it.

However I see nothing at all in your post that is unique to making AA what it is. You are just describing in general terms ANY such group that get together. Why are these things you just listed unique to AA in your mind?

These are the things that made AA unique when it was first formed. There was no treatment for alcoholism back then. It probably is not so unique now because, as you say, there are other groups in existence who use a similar approach. Ihave no issue whatsoever with any other similar groups. Anything that helps people to recover is fine by me. I'm not particularly familiar with other groups but it is a very large leap for you to claim I am disparaging them simply because I'm unfamiliar with them.

nozzferrahhtoo · 08-04-2014 09:46AM

mazcon wrote: »

These are the things that made AA unique when it was first formed.

Did it? I do not know. Do you have citations to back up the claim that no such groups with those attributes existed at that time? That no groups of alcoholics ever got together to help each other out?

Even if you do.... so what? I am commenting on AA today. Here and now. In 2014. Not what it may or may not have been in the past. Note you are now backpeddaling to the past. Your post above this one started off "what makes AA uniquely AA is the fact". Present tense, not past.

mazcon wrote: »

there are other groups in existence who use a similar approach.

Now you are getting to the page I am on. So yes there are other groups that get alcoholics together and seek to treat them in a mutual support social group and outlet. I already know this.

So if one is to measure the efficacy of AA itself one can not focus on the things common across ALL such groups. One has to isolate unique aspects that make AA what AA is. That make it not just another group. Things like the 12 steps for example.

And I am still waiting for at least one person to even ATTEMPT to step up and show that any one attribute of AA itself (above and beyond the simple attribute of being a social support group and outlet) is actually a benefit at all.

mazcon wrote: »

I'm not particularly familiar with other groups but it is a very large leap for you to claim I am disparaging them simply because I'm unfamiliar with them.

No really a leap at all. It is directly implicit in what you are saying. You very clearly and openly stated that "alcoholics who have all suffered the effects of an active addiction to alcohol" is unique to AA. It follows from that therefore that this is not an attribute of other such groups.

And I merely ask how you can judge this to be so. How is the suffering from alcohol unique to AA? What makes the suffering of people in those other groups invalid?

marienbad · 08-04-2014 12:46PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Again a throw away empty post that has nothing to do with the thread. Are you failing in an attempt to start a flame war with someone who is immune to being trolled? Or are you just covering for not having any more points to make despite feeling compelled to continue posting anyway?

At least one of us is going to stay mature and on topic here so I will simply repeat my point. I have not ONCE suggested AA will not help some people or has absolutely no benefit to anyone. My point is more complex than the simplistic misrepresentation you are making of it.

My point is that the things that specifically make AA what it is... that distinguish it from any other social support meetup group.... such as the 12 steps..... no one (much less yourself) has shown even the first iota of even the tiniest bit of support that THOSE things have any beneficial effect whatsoever.

No one. Anywhere. Ever.

That is my point. Now either you can either leave the field.... address my point and rebut it.... agree that I appear to be entirely correct in this point.... or you can continue the attempt to troll and misrepresent and insult. Sadly I fear I know which of the three you are at this point most likely to choose.

You have has shown no evidence for such a contention , so your ad hominem applies more to yourself than anyone .

Just repeating it does not give it more weight.

sopretty · 08-04-2014 12:48PM

AA was the foundation for all other 12 step programmes, of which there are many.

There are not very many groups who address alcoholism specifically, though a few have tried and failed down through the years.

A.A(Alcoholics Anonymous) meetings religious?

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