A.A(Alcoholics Anonymous) meetings religious?

Verygames11

Hey all, I'm getting my life back on track and I'm trying to kick my alcohol addiction.
I was thinking of going to an alcoholics anonymous meeting but I'm a bit put off by "The Twelve Steps" that help people give it up e.g.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

I don't believe in any God, celestial being or any religious nonsense.

Has anyone gone to such meetings in the past, if so what are they like, was it all based around religion?

sopretty

I have, but I have struggled massively with that element and have relapsed several times. In general in meetings they will very much talk about just taking a day at a time. In reality, the programme to recovery involves those steps. They do say that you can believe 'God' is the power of the group. I'm sort of where you are right now. I don't believe in anything in reality, though I would pray and hope lol. At the end of the day, it's very difficult to believe in 'God'. I have at times believed in 'God', less as being a man in the sky, but more like 'karma' or 'fate'. At the end of the day, my lack of trust in handing my life over to something or someone I don't really believe in, has been my downfall.

lazygal

Haven't needed to go myself but I know of at least one person who didn't use the service because of the religious elements. I think it's replacing one dependence, on alcohol, with another, on God. Not something that'd help me.

Cabaal

This is why in America people get upset (rightly so) when a judge orders somebody to attend AA, it's affectively pushing religion on them.

Not sure if judges do the same thing in ireland, do they?

I find the admitting that you are affectively useless as a human being a very worrying thing to do, people can be far stronger then they give themselves credit for when it comes to addictions,

sopretty

I don't think that's the case at all. When drinking, all alcoholics are completely powerless over their alcohol consumption, particularly in the later stages. AA is not religious. As in, it is affiliated to no religion. It is however spiritual. A belief in a higher power is sort of a prerequisite to recovery through AA. All that said, I am not in recovery. And I hate most local members of AA. Sick as bejaysus, despite being sober.

Verygames11

Thanks for the info.

lazygal

sopretty wrote: »

I don't think that's the case at all. When drinking, all alcoholics are completely powerless over their alcohol consumption, particularly in the later stages. AA is not religious. As in, it is affiliated to no religion. It is however spiritual. A belief in a higher power is sort of a prerequisite to recovery through AA. All that said, I am not in recovery. And I hate most local members of AA. Sick as bejaysus, despite being sober.

I don't believe in a higher power, nor do those I know who were put off by the specific reference to a deity to aid their recovery. I never needed the services of AA but if I do in the future (not that I think its likely) I would not avail of them because appealing to some sort of spiritual element wouldn't help me.

sopretty

lazygal wrote: »

I don't believe in a higher power, nor do those I know who were put off by the specific reference to a deity to aid their recovery. I never needed the services of AA but if I do in the future (not that I think its likely) I would not avail of them because appealing to some sort of spiritual element wouldn't help me.

Can I ask how you managed to get sober? What spurred you into it? How do you cope daily with emotions when sober?

lazygal

sopretty wrote: »

Can I ask how you managed to get sober? What spurred you into it? How do you cope daily with emotions when sober?

Sorry, I might have come across wrong. I never needed AA. But if I needed to get sober it wouldn't be helpful to me as someone who doesn't believe in a higher power or have a spiritual side.

sopretty

ah i see

seamus

Like many organisations with a religious slant, from what I gather the religious element of AA varies from meeting to meeting. Some meetings are run by a local priest and will include praying and strongly pushing the idea that you cannot free yourself of your demon without submitting to God.

Other meetings gloss over the whole spiritual part and give it little heed, instead focussing on actually doing something.

I would say on the whole though if you're irreligious, you will probably find it difficult in either case. If you don't feel like you fit in with the group dynamic or that you have to hide some aspect of your personality, then AA is not really going to work for you.

What's strange is that it's basically taboo to even question the existence of AA. A number of studies have been done, and none has ever demonstrated that AA is at all effective.
I recall an article from a couple of years ago where some study was claiming that AA was in fact less effective than going cold turkey on your own. People were almost foaming at the mouth that someone would dare question the worthiness of the AA.
I'll see if I can find any reference to that study.

perfectisthe

You have options other than AA Verygames11. There are other recovery groups that have no spiritual element. I found the ideas and philosophy of rational recovery very helpful when I kicked the booze.

You should check out the non drinkers forum here on boards. There are a lot of very helpful and supportive people there who have been through exactly what you're going through.

Peregrinus

AA isn't inherently religious, but it's underlying philosophy is, um, a pretty good fit with religion - or, at least, with the forms of religion that predominate in our society.

The basic idea with AA is that, in order to recover, you need to start by acknowledging your addiction, and your powerlessness in the face of it. You need to accept that, to beat your addiction, you will have to rely on some power outside yourself.

That "outside power", obviously, can very easily be understood as a loving interventionist god, and a lot of AA groups default to that kind of language and thinking. Obviously, that's no use to you in tackling your addiction.

But it doesn't have to be so. The outside power can be the support and solidarity of your group members, or it can be anything else - outside of yourself - in which you choose to place your hope and trust.

The trick is finding an AA group which thinks and talks in ways that you are comfortable with and that can help you, when so many don't. But AA group leaders should be familiar with this problem; you won't be the first to present themselves who can't accept the dominant discourse about this in a particular group, and they should be able to steer you in the direction of a group that can help you.

It's worth enquiring about, anyway.

GeorgiaC

I found a site ages ago with revised 12 steps for secular people. These were not for myself but a family friend. They may help you if you want to look at it a different way. Don't forget though the steps may be religious the people (as in attendees) will probably not be. Try calling ahead and see who hosts it, explain your circumstances and your feelings about religion. You may find being in a group with people who are experiencing the same thing could be of more benefit than the harm of religion. I looked at it, that if you are an atheist I doubt that the steps will somehow change you

Humanist Steps

Below is another version of secularized steps created by the renowned behavioral psychologist B. F. Skinner and first published in "The Humanist".
1. We accept the fact that all our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We honestly hope they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way that will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such lists and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way.

Humanist Steps

Below is another version of secularized steps created by the renowned behavioral psychologist B. F. Skinner and first published in "The Humanist".
1. We accept the fact that all our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We honestly hope they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way that will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such lists and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way.

nozzferrahhtoo

Verygames11 wrote: »

Has anyone gone to such meetings in the past, if so what are they like, was it all based around religion?

There are many similar meetings without the religious woo, nonsense and clear attempts to sell religion to the vulerable and needy.

Worse, there tend to be threads on fora like this one (and there has been at least two here before which I have posted on) where people try to play down the "god" aspect of the 12 steps. Hand waving nonsense tends to spew forth with all this "Oh it says "god" but it does not really mean "god" it means whatever you want it to mean really". Such faffers simply have to ignore the language used in the 12 steps which not only use the word "god" but very much use language that indicates we are talking about an entity with very specific attributes such as consciousness, the ability to listen to you, the ability to intervene, and even the male sex.

Even worse, because AA is such a known term, there are a lot of people who set up meetings, ignore most of the crap that comes with AA, but call the meetings "AA" anyway. So you could go to one "AA" meeting and find the host is an evangelical bible bashing look.... while you could go to another "AA" meeting and find that they have pretty much thrown the entire thing out with the bathwater and have simply put "AA" over the door to get bums on seats.

There have been many studies trying to show the efficacy of AA and they are generally NOT good. Some figures for their beneficial results have been akin to simple inaction. Not good at all.

Those studies that HAVE shown good results are even worse. They tend to be commissioned in the AA community itself and show MASSIVE methodological flaws. One study for example ONLY studied members who had been members for an extended period of time. They ignored drop outs and recent members for example. If you only study people who have committed long term then you are likely to only get very good results.

So between studies that show bad results, and studies that engage in such massaging of the figures in order to manufacture good results, it over all does not look good for "AA" _in general_.

The best argument people can muster in defense of AA it seems is to bleat repeatedly that "Oh it has helped SOME people hasn't it? There is SOME testimony out there of people who were saved by it!". That is truly a useless argument though because ANY approach, no matter how ridiculous, is going to get SOME positive testimony. If I got 1000 alcoholics in a room tomorrow and told them all that the next time they feel the urge they should stare for 5 minutes at a green dot on an orange piece of paper.... all the while humming the Hokey Pokey.... while standing on one leg....... there is going to be "SOME" people from that 1000 who come back claiming they are no longer alcoholics and my "cure" was what did it for them.

All that said however the best I can recommend you do is simply attend a variety of meetings. AA and not AA. In various locations at various times. There will be one there for you somewhere. And I wish you all the best in your journey.

AA is, at the end of the day when you strip away the crass and blatant attempt to push religion on the vulnerable and needy, simply a social support group to assist with addiction. And social support groups are a GOOD thing for someone in your position. I can not recommend them enough. The task ahead of you is simply to find the right group for you. Do not go to one just because it is called AA, but do not avoid them for that reason either. Try them all until you find one that clicks for you.

Do not buy 100% into this nonsense mentality that they sell that you are "powerless" and your solution comes from outside either. Sure outside things... friends, family, support groups, a "sponsor" and so forth are all helpful and great things. But you are not a powerless automaton either, at the sole mercy of everything external. You have a will, you have a mind, you have a choice, you are not powerless at all. The power lies inside YOU. You just need HELP with it, and that help is external.

Cabaal

Penn & Teller's take on the AA and 12 Steps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUG9dr6SZSY

Verygames11

Cabaal wrote: »

Penn & Teller's take on the AA and 12 Steps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUG9dr6SZSY

Thanks for the info and help all.

I had a chat with CADS(Community Alcohol & Drug Service) today and I'm going to see them next week. It's run by the HSE as well.

After watching the Penn & Teller's video I'm definitely not going to try AA

Sorry if this went off topic.

lazygal

Best of luck op.

gaynorvader

Verygames11 wrote: »

Thanks for the info and help all.

I had a chat with CADS(Community Alcohol & Drug Service) today and I'm going to see them next week. It's run by the HSE as well.

After watching the Penn & Teller's video I'm definitely not going to try AA

Sorry if this went off topic.

For what it's worth, my Dad got off the drink without the AA and he said what he found most helpful was the support of his family and friends. He was disheartened at first because some of his friends abandoned him, but he realised that they were only really drinking buddies and in all probability alcoholics themselves. Seeing him going through the recovery shone a light on their own problems and people don't like that.

Best of luck to you in giving it up.

nozzferrahhtoo

gaynorvader wrote: »

For what it's worth, my Dad got off the drink without the AA and he said what he found most helpful was the support of his family and friends.

"True that" as they say.

One of the reasons dodgy diet plans or dodgy vitamin supplements get away with all they do is that at their core they all contain some wisdom. Self proclaimed dietry experts will espouse a ton of nonsense but at the core of it they recommend things like drinking lots of water and avoiding processed foods.

So people end up testifying to the efficacy of such nonsense because it is the core wisdom that is having the beneficial effects, not the nonsense that was built up around that core.

The same is true of AA. As you say above one of... if not THE.... most important aspect of giving up an addiction is the helpful support from a circle of people.

At it's very core AA simply is a social support group. So like charlatan dodgy diet plans.... it is going to work for some people some of the time for this reason because of this reason alone. Alas people will ascribe the credit for that to the nonsense that is built up around that core truth. The 12 steps, the spiritual assistance from "god" and what not.

Brian Shanahan

Verygames11 wrote: »

Has anyone gone to such meetings in the past, if so what are they like, was it all based around religion?

Given what little they actually give out we have to assume that the AA failure rate is about 95%, so even if you have no problem with their massive (if not quite directed) religiosity, I'd suggest you look to other options.

Unfortunately, not having any problems re alcaholism I cannot give you advice on where to go.

roosh

the meetings are as religious as the members. some meetings people bang on about "god", other meetings they don't bang on about "god" as much. NA is a younger crowd, and they aren't as "catholic" as AA.

It's not actually religious at all - as said, it's as religious as the members.

Your higher power could be evolution, if you so wished. It is a "god"/"higher pwer" of your own understanding - I repeat OF YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.

AA, apparently enjoys the same success rate as other rehabilitation programmes, no better, no worse - from what I've read. There are some very practical things in the steps, that should prob be part of every program. Making amends has a powerful effect - you don't need AA for it, but it's part of the steps.

Meditation, for me, is the most effective one of the steps - "buddhist" meditation, or just MBSR, or whatever label you want to put on it. The practice itself is transformative.


If you don't like the term "god", then find a meeting where there aren't so many bible bashers - they are there ( I would recommend NA [younger demographic and it's also for people who have had issues with alcohol - personally, don't like the terms "alcoholic" or "addict"])


Alternatively, find a treatment program that you are comfortable with. Whatever program you choose, I couldn't recommend meditation strongly enough, get some counselling also - bcos drinking is just a symptom of the underlying problem. I don't think it's a question of either AA or something else - even though many AAers will swear by AA. Talking to other people with similiar issues is very helpful, talking to a counsellor is also very helpful - bcos there's just some things you can't tell a group of people.



Whatever else you do, I would strongly recommend meditation - simply the practice of observing your own mind.

nozzferrahhtoo

roosh wrote: »

Your higher power could be evolution, if you so wished. It is a "god"/"higher pwer" of your own understanding - I repeat OF YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.

Yet the 12 steps themselves impart an understanding to you. Not one of your own devising. They refer not just to "god" but directly to attributes and capabilities of this god.

It sounds good on paper to say that it is all down to your own opinion and understanding but how true is this in reality, across the board?

It is a lot like the Burka argument to me. The pro argument there says that women in certain communities are free to wear it or not as they choose. That sounds great on paper. But in reality a woman in a society where all the other women are wearing it... where to not wear it would cause her to stand out and even be ostracised or suspected..... does she REALLY have a choice anywhere BUT on paper?

Similarly if you go to a religiously dominated meetup of this type are you REALLY free to espouse your own understanding of this "higher power" or are you going to keep wearing your mental burka and just go about what the others are doing?

And that's just "normal" healthy people. Here we are talking about people who have issues, addictions, will power problems, vulnerability and more. Are they going to be strong enough to break the mold?

So this peer pressure.... coupled with the actual text of the 12 steps..... leaves me unable to buy into the "Of your own understanding mantra". No matter how many times you might repeat it, or type it in all caps.

roosh wrote: »

AA, apparently enjoys the same success rate as other rehabilitation programmes, no better, no worse - from what I've read.

It would be interesting to know what you read then because AAs own figures.... such as they release and people can actually get to read..... suggest their success rate is in the order of 5% which is coincidentally around the same success rate as if you had done nothing at all.

roosh wrote: »

There are some very practical things in the steps

Of course there is. There is also some very practical things in even the most nonsense of new age dietry routines such as the cayenne pepper diet. That is the insidious nature of fraudsters and charlatans. They do not just espouse or sell 100% nonsense. No, they wrap their own brand of nonsense around a small core of genuinely useful and practical things.

What people do then notice a benefit ascribe that benefit to whatever program.... be it AA or cayenne pepper or vitamin pills.... it was they signed up for when in fact the program itself had nothing to do with it.... just the core useful parts that exist in ALL such programs.

At the very very core of it, AA is just a social mutual support group. And social mutual support groups are a GOOD thing. It is the woo, damaging claims and agendas and other nonsense built up AROUND that useful core that makes the package being sold.... and the package that people object to.

roosh wrote: »

If you don't like the term "god", then find a meeting where there aren't so many bible bashers

Indeed. Since there is no real regulatory body around AA, people are free to set up any kind of meeting they want.... keeping or ditching as much of the tenets and claims of AA as they want..... and still stick "AA" on the door. But is it still AA then? Putting "AA" on the door does not make it "AA". So if people are setting up meetings that are "AA" in name only then why even use the name? I guess because it is a marketing success and a household name, so use of "AA" automatically sells your group rather than you having to establish your own group in the awareness of your target market yourself.

But it worries me that people can set up any kind of meeting they want without any kind of regulatory body. Imagine oncologists did this for example, simply setting up any practice and keeping or ditching whatever "best practice" guidelines they subjectively please themselves with.

At the end of the day we are treating a condition here and those purporting to treat it should at least be answerable to some iterativly improved best practice guidelines and regulatory body. Otherwise even those with the best intentions in the world, who set up such groups, could end up doing more harm than good.

roosh wrote: »

Alternatively, find a treatment program that you are comfortable with.

I agree. And what should make people comfortable is a group with a program that is clear and regulated. That publishes not only their success figures but how they were compiles. Can show that such figures and studies are fed back into the system to improve it by iterations. And that adherence to this established "best practice" is assured and regulated.

THAT would make me comfortable if I were seeking such a group. Alas I am personally unaware of what groups, if any, in Ireland adhere to such standards. Someone else more in the know than me will have to enlighten us on this one I am afraid.

roosh wrote: »

I couldn't recommend meditation strongly enough, get some counselling also

I agree. One of our users around here gives free guided meditation sessions to groups to students of one of the Irish colleges. He talks often however of how his group evolved from just students to people suffering from addiction, anger issues and more. In fact he purports to have an ordained priest and a trainee priest among his regulars. He says, anecdotally at least, that meditation has clearly helped his addiction members. I laud him for his generosity of spirit and his personal time to give so freely to such people for no reason at all.

On the subject of counselling. There has been studies showing that self help meetup groups of this sort work best when done in CONJUCTION with professional counselling. If however you go back to the original AA documents related to AA, guess what? Yes, you guessed it. They recommend strongly that AA be used EXCLUSIVELY and professional counselling be avoided.

One of the many examples of how AA not only fails to help people, but actively and positively espouses notions that HARMS those people by cajoling or admonishing them into avoiding things that actually will help them.

roosh wrote: »

drinking is just a symptom of the underlying problem.

Often it is yes. But not exclusively. So by wary of painting too wide a brush stroke. Sometimes Addiction IS the problem. Sometimes as you say Addiction is only the symptom of a problem. The trick, on a case by case basis, is to figure out which it is.

Geomy

I have heard of a few AA groups referred by religious members as the Godless groups.
So they give it a wide berth, but most of these Godless members sre around 10 to 30 year's without a drink. ..

Horses for course's :-)

sopretty

I feel the need to post my opinion, as I feel that AA can potentially save some lives.

First of all I need to preface my post by two statements:

A) I have struggled massively with the God/Higher Power concept.
I dislike a large proportion of my AA cohorts or 'fellows'.

That said, I think it is worth looking at what led the two founders of AA to come up with the 'God' concept.

The three pertinent ideas were:
A - that we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives
B - that probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism
C - that 'God' could and would if he were SOUGHT (note for a start, that this one doesn't stipulate that 'God' must be 'believed in!')

Anyway, what led them to devise the programme of AA i.e. the 12 steps (which AA in some areas is failing to pass on adequately), was the very simple fact that despite ENDLESS efforts on the part of the predecessors to AA, they simply COULD NOT STAY SOBER. The Big Book goes into this at length. I would read the prefaces to the current edition and the first few chapters.
Most (if not all?) of the first 40 (or 100?) to RECOVER were pretty high achievers. You're talking former wallstreet brokers, surgeons, lawyers etc.
They had EVERYTHING TO LIVE FOR, every medical facility open to them, every motivation to stop, every ounce of will-power they possessed, every need and reason to stop and stay stopped, everything that money could buy.
But nothing could blooming keep them stopped for any significant period of time (i.e. No human power could have relieved them of their alcoholism)!!
This was when Bill came to the conclusion that nothing short of 'divine intervention' (inverted commas here, as not 100% sure of what words he uses), was going to save his life. And then he had his 'spiritual experience'.

If anyone reading is questioning the 'religious' (which it's not), but 'spiritual' aspect of AA, I would suggest speaking about it at meetings, reading the prefaces and first few chapters and also reading the Appendix on 'Spiritual Experience' (can't remember whether it's Appendix I or II.

The big book is freely accessible FOR FREE online. Just google AA Big Book Online and you'll get it there.

I admit that the toughest part of AA for me is the belief in a Higher Power or power which is not human ('no human power.......'). That said, when I have moments of handing my life over to another power, the peace and relief and load off my shoulders that I get is tremendous.

Best of luck to all reading.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but there an alcoholic recovery group that is secular

www.dublinlifering.com/

Benny_Cake

If you live in a part of the country where they operate, you could try LifeRing which is definitely non-religious. I've no experience in this area so I can't vouch for them either way but perhaps it might be an alternative to AA for some.

AA works for some, it doesn't work for others. It's not the only option and it's unlikely to work simply by itself although I'd imagine a support group could be a useful tool among many in the recovery process. I hope things work out for you OP.

Edit: Chazz Michael Michaels got in just ahead of me.

Geomy

sopretty wrote: »

I feel the need to post my opinion, as I feel that AA can potentially save some lives.

First of all I need to preface my post by two statements:

A) I have struggled massively with the God/Higher Power concept.
I dislike a large proportion of my AA cohorts or 'fellows'.

That said, I think it is worth looking at what led the two founders of AA to come up with the 'God' concept.

The three pertinent ideas were:
A - that we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives
B - that probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism
C - that 'God' could and would if he were SOUGHT (note for a start, that this one doesn't stipulate that 'God' must be 'believed in!')

Anyway, what led them to devise the programme of AA i.e. the 12 steps (which AA in some areas is failing to pass on adequately), was the very simple fact that despite ENDLESS efforts on the part of the predecessors to AA, they simply COULD NOT STAY SOBER. The Big Book goes into this at length. I would read the prefaces to the current edition and the first few chapters.
Most (if not all?) of the first 40 (or 100?) to RECOVER were pretty high achievers. You're talking former wallstreet brokers, surgeons, lawyers etc.
They had EVERYTHING TO LIVE FOR, every medical facility open to them, every motivation to stop, every ounce of will-power they possessed, every need and reason to stop and stay stopped, everything that money could buy.
But nothing could blooming keep them stopped for any significant period of time (i.e. No human power could have relieved them of their alcoholism)!!
This was when Bill came to the conclusion that nothing short of 'divine intervention' (inverted commas here, as not 100% sure of what words he uses), was going to save his life. And then he had his 'spiritual experience'.

If anyone reading is questioning the 'religious' (which it's not), but 'spiritual' aspect of AA, I would suggest speaking about it at meetings, reading the prefaces and first few chapters and also reading the Appendix on 'Spiritual Experience' (can't remember whether it's Appendix I or II.

The big book is freely accessible FOR FREE online. Just google AA Big Book Online and you'll get it there.

I admit that the toughest part of AA for me is the belief in a Higher Power or power which is not human ('no human power.......'). That said, when I have moments of handing my life over to another power, the peace and relief and load off my shoulders that I get is tremendous.

Best of luck to all reading.

Well I think what they mean by "no human power can relieve our alcoholism" is that your friends, family and carer's cannot relieve your alcoholism. ...
It's an inside job.

Only an addict or alcoholic can empathise with people who find those 12 steps are working.

The 12 step approach can really fck up some people's heads,other people adapt to it easy enough.

It's a simple programme for complicated people ;-)

mathepac

Geomy wrote: »

... It's a simple programme for complicated people ;-)

It's a simple programme for people who need it, and despite the critics who have never attended a meeting or suffered substance dependency, compulsive gambling, etc it continues to help people straighten out their lives.

To give the lie once and for all about the religiosity of any 12-step programme, download and read the AA, NA, AlAnon, etc literature which is available free to all who are open-minded enough to want to know about the programme(s). If you want more information at first-hand, feel free to attend a local meeting, look up the on-line schedules or phone the central contact numbers in you local phone book.

Talk to people after the meetings and get their views on the programme. You'll get a wide variety of informed opinion because contrary to the nonsense being posted here (again) they are not (all) religious automata. Why?

When the anti-12 Step posters here actually inform themselves about AA philosophy, they'll discover that the 12 steps are a "suggested" programme of recovery. I hope I don't have to explain what "suggested" means and the implications for someone who wants to avail of the 12 Steps, but if posters can't figure it out for themselves. I'm happy to help.

One poster suggests that AA's research into success rates is suspect because their data-set doesn't include former AA members. The second "A" in their title stands for "Anonymous". This means that no register, central or local, of AA members exists or existed, making a longitudinal study of former memers impossible. The fact that the poster hasn't grasped this basic fact about the organisation speaks volumes about the value of the post.

I've referred clients to AWARE, AA, NA, GA, etc. Some found the meetings helpful, others didn't. I've encouraged female clients who might have stuff they deem unsuitable for sharing in mixed company to make their own "Women's AA". I've had gay clients with similar reservations and I suggested they have their own group for sensitive stuff and to attend AA for more general stuff.

Over the years dozens of my clients have found AA useful and helpful. A few who initially rejected AA / 12 steps outright, found their way back by using the "just take what you need and leave the rest"* philosophy of the "suggested" programme.

*With thanks to Robbie Robertson, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down"

sawdoubters

I hope to god its not religious

taytothief

When you start giving life advice to people on something like addiction, when most of you haven't a fcukin clue what A.A. is like, you're no different then a Christian suggesting for or against something based on purely Catholic belief or dogma.

OP, God is not essential to the 12 step program or to A.A.. I know this as fact. The benefit of A.A is the people, and the effect sharing with them has on you. You can go to a meeting with absolutely no obligation to return for another. You don't have to speak or take part in any way, and you can get up and walk out at any time. Go and check it out, and do not take as gospel what some people have posted here. Some atheists in this thread appear to be so caught up in their hatred of religion that they're putting the welfare of individuals in jeopardy. Which is kind of ironic... A.A. is known to work for people. There are countless alcoholics and addicts who will tell you they'd be lost without their meetings. And, of course, not every single one is religious.