electrician - earthing gas boiler? or something to that effect?

Corkgirl210 · 28-03-2014 12:30PM #1

Gas boiler service guy said I would need to get an electrician to look at my boiler.. something to do with earthing some wires or something.. he said its not immediately dangerous but something I should get looked at down the line.. not even sure if earthing is the correct term?

Also, how easy is it to put in a new power socket on other side of room? I hate wires.. can an electrician also put in another UPC box connector on the other side of a room?

what price would I be looking at roughly does anyone know?

tomdempsey200 · 28-03-2014 01:39PM

maybe he means bonding the main metallic service pipes

or earthing the boiler unit

or maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about either(not unlikely scenario:))

prob best get a registered electrical contractor out to take a look

28-03-2014 02:24PM

^^^ what he says

There should be a 10 sq. mm earth cable (for equipotential bonding) connected to the gas pipe between the gas meter and the boiler. The other end of this cable should be connected to the earth bar in the distribution board.

In addition the 230V power supply circuit should also have an earth cable (known as a circuit protective conductor or "CPC").

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 01:23PM

2011 wrote: »

^^^ what he says

There should be a 10 sq. mm earth cable (for equipotential bonding) connected to the gas pipe between the gas meter and the boiler. The other end of this cable should be connected to the earth bar in the distribution board.

In addition the 230V power supply circuit should also have an earth cable (known as a circuit protective conductor or "CPC").

Or it can be linked to the earth in the hot press. If copper is going from the hot press to the boiler in copper then the flow, return and gas to boiler can all be cross bonded under the boiler. Providing all copper in the hot press is properly bonded in 10mm2. Get an RGI who is up to date with wiring or get an electrician

29-03-2014 01:48PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Or it can be linked to the earth in the hot press. If copper is going from the hot press to the boiler in copper then the flow, return and gas to boiler can all be cross bonded under the boiler. Providing all copper in the hot press is properly bonded in 10mm2.

I do not agree.
You are referring to cross bonding of conductive pipes within the hot press, which is completely different to the bonding of the incoming gas mains.
For a start the incoming gas mains would not pass through the hot press.

The bonding of the incoming gas pipe is outlined in 544 (page 126) and shown in Fig. 54.1 (page128) of ET101:2008

Get an RGI who is up to date with wiring or get an electrician

It is generally best to use electricians for electrical work

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 02:16PM

2011 wrote: »

I do not agree.
You are referring to cross bonding of conductive pipes within the hot press, which is completely different to the bonding of the incoming gas mains.
For a start the incoming gas mains would not pass through the hot press.

The bonding of the incoming gas pipe is outlined in 544 (page 126) and shown in Fig. 54.1 (page128) of ET101:2008

It is generally best to use electricians for electrical
If The flow and return in the hot press are earthed in 10mm2 and it's copper all the way to the boiler, then linking them together at the boiler is permitted according to IS 813 gas regs.
As for electrical only for electricians.... Let's not get into that one. I know so many sparks that can't wire a pipe stat, don't run a neutral to a room stat, and don't know what the grey and orange are for on motorised valves. Now don't for a second think I'm accusing any sparks of that on here cause I'm not

29-03-2014 02:38PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

If The flow and return in the hot press are earthed in 10mm2 and it's copper all the way to the boiler, then linking them together at the boiler is permitted according to IS 813 gas regs.

Yes, but we are discussing the bonding the incoming gas mains, not bonding the flow and return. Are you seriously suggesting that there is no need to bond the incoming gas pipe just because the flow and return to the hot press are bonded?

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 02:44PM

2011 wrote: »

Yes, but we are discussing the bonding the incoming gas mains, not bonding the flow and return. Are you seriously suggesting that there is no need to bond the incoming gas pipe just because the flow and return to the hot press are bonded?

Absolutely not. Im talking about linking from the flow, to the return, to the gas at the boiler if copper is running from the hot press to the boiler if everything is earthed in the hot press already

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 02:49PM

Maybe I'm reading this wrong.

29-03-2014 02:57PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Absolutely not.

So if you agree that it is necessary to bond the incoming gas pipe, then you agree with what I said in post #3.
However this conflicts with your position in post #4, so you may want to rethink.

tomdempsey200 · 29-03-2014 03:03PM

2011 wrote: »

So if you agree that it is necessary to bond the incoming gas pipe, then you agree with what I said in post #3.
However this conflicts with your position in post #4, so you may want to rethink.

I see what he means now..that drawing appears wrong

that extension of main equippotential bonding in metallic pipe doesn't comply with wiring rules afaik

the bond has to be extended in unbroken copper cable afaik

I just can't seem to locate relevant rules on it?

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 03:05PM

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

I see what he means now..that drawing appears wrong

that extension of main equippotential bonding in metallic pipe doesn't comply with wiring rules afaik

the bond has to be extended in unbroken copper cable afaik

I just can't seem to locate relevant rules on it?

That pic is from the latest edition of the gas regs

29-03-2014 03:09PM

If it is electrical the regulations that must be complied with are "The National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)". Bonding and more specifically the bonding of gas and water services are dealt with throughly. this outlines the minimum standards that are required. There is even a diagram (Fig. 54.1) on page 128 of same.

There are lots of other diagrams, guidelines and advices in all sorts of publications that may or may not be correct.

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 03:13PM

2011 wrote: »

If it is electrical the regulations that must be complied with are "The National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)". Bonding and more specifically the bonding of gas and water services are dealt with throughly. this outlines the minimum standards that are required. There is even a diagram (Fig. 54.1) on page 128 of same.

There are lots of other diagrams, guidelines and advices in all sorts of publications that may or may not be correct.

Maybe you're right, maybe I'm looking at my diagram arseways. You'd imagine such an important thing would be identical in both sets of regs though

29-03-2014 03:19PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

That pic is from the latest edition of the gas regs

I believe you but this does not mean that the ETCI regulations can be ignored.

The National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008) 544.1.1 states:

"Main bonding conductors shall connect extraneous parts of main engineering services in a building such as pipe-work for gas, water and central heating and ducting for air conditioning, to the main earthing terminal."

I think that this is very clear.

As I am sure you know the "main earthing terminal" is located in the distribution board.

If you read 544.1.3 you will see what the main bonding conductor in a domestic installation is a 10mm^2 copper cable. So this rules out using the copper pipe as a main bonding conductor.

All of the above aligns perfectly with the diagram in Fig. 54.1 (referred to earlier).

Bruthal · 29-03-2014 03:19PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

and don't know what the grey and orange are for on motorised valves.

What are they for?

29-03-2014 03:25PM

Incidentally 411.3.2 states that:

"Extraneous conductive parts originating outside the building shall be bonded as close as practicable to their points of entry into the building."

This would suggest that immediately downstream of the gas meter (in the meter box is not permitted) is the best place, not at the boiler as the diagram in the gas regs suggests.

tomdempsey200 · 29-03-2014 03:26PM

equipotential bonding conductor:

definition; a protective conductor for ensuring equippotential bonding..
(page 13)

543.2.3
water pipes may not be used as protective conductors..

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 03:26PM

Bruthal wrote: »

What are they for?

Is that a genuine question or are u testing me?

29-03-2014 03:27PM

Bruthal wrote: »

What are they for?

Decoration, just snip them off they only get in the way

:D:D

29-03-2014 03:28PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Is that a genuine question or are u testing me?

Redeem yourself, answer it

:D:D

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 03:30PM

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

equipotential bonding conductor:

definition; a protective conductor for ensuring equippotential bonding..
(page 13)

543.2.3
water pipes may not be used as protective conductors..

I dunno lads. Cer write both regs. Here's another diagram from IS813 2014 edition where copper is not used from the boiler to hot press.

Bruthal · 29-03-2014 03:31PM

I think its common sense for electrical people anyway, without any referencing of rules.

29-03-2014 03:33PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I dunno lads. Cer write both regs. Here's another diagram from IS813 2014 edition where copper is not used from the boiler to hot press.

That diagram is correct and conflicts with your previous diagram.
It shows a bonding conductor from the incoming gas pipe to the MET as I stated in post #3.

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 03:34PM

2011 wrote: »

Redeem yourself, answer it :D:D

Grey is perm live to MV
orange is SL out to boiler.

29-03-2014 03:35PM

Bruthal wrote: »

I think its common sense for electrical people anyway, without any referencing of rules.

Yup, back to my earlier point "It is generally best to use electricians for electrical work

"

tomdempsey200 · 29-03-2014 03:38PM

his first diagram doesn't comply with ET101 anyhow

it has to be looped unbroken in copper cable to comply

afaik it's allowable to loop from water to gas.. although I've never worked on gas myself

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 03:42PM

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

his first diagram doesn't comply with ET101 anyhow

it has to be looped unbroken in copper cable to comply

Lol lads they're not my personal diagrams. They're from the new gas regs realised a few weeks ago, written by the same guys who right your regs. I never once said they gas shouldn't be earthed.. My apologies to 2011 if it came across that way. The only point I was trying to highlight was the copper from boiler to hot press as opposed to plastic pipe where the second diagram is used. Our regs are contradicting each other

tomdempsey200 · 29-03-2014 03:48PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Lol lads they're not my personal diagrams. They're from the new gas regs realised a few weeks ago, written by the same guys who right your regs. I never once said they gas shouldn't be earthed.. My apologies to 2011 if it came across that way. The only point I was trying to highlight was the copper from boiler to hot press as opposed to plastic pipe where the second diagram is used. Our regs are contradicting each other

they're not..

et101:2008 is the wiring rules

full stop..

Bruthal · 29-03-2014 03:51PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Lol lads they're not my personal diagrams. They're from the new gas regs realised a few weeks ago, written by the same guys who right your regs. I never once said they gas shouldn't be earthed.. My apologies to 2011 if it came across that way. The only point I was trying to highlight was the copper from boiler to hot press as opposed to plastic pipe where the second diagram is used. Our regs are contradicting each other

Yea the first diagram is showing that continuous copper coming from properly bonded hot press to the boiler, can cross bond onto the copper gas pipe at the boiler.

There should in reality be an unbroken 10 square earth bonding the gas pipe directly to the main earth bar.

Dtp1979 · 29-03-2014 03:54PM

Bruthal wrote: »

Yea the first diagram is showing that continuous copper coming from properly bonded hot press to the boiler, can cross bond onto the copper gas pipe at the boiler.

There should in reality be an unbroken 10 square earth bonding the gas pipe directly to the main earth bar.

Yes I agree.

electrician - earthing gas boiler? or something to that effect?

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