electrician - earthing gas boiler? or something to that effect?

Corkgirl210

Gas boiler service guy said I would need to get an electrician to look at my boiler.. something to do with earthing some wires or something.. he said its not immediately dangerous but something I should get looked at down the line.. not even sure if earthing is the correct term?

Also, how easy is it to put in a new power socket on other side of room? I hate wires.. can an electrician also put in another UPC box connector on the other side of a room?

what price would I be looking at roughly does anyone know?

tomdempsey200

maybe he means bonding the main metallic service pipes

or earthing the boiler unit


or maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about either(not unlikely scenario:))


prob best get a registered electrical contractor out to take a look

2011

^^^ what he says

There should be a 10 sq. mm earth cable (for equipotential bonding) connected to the gas pipe between the gas meter and the boiler. The other end of this cable should be connected to the earth bar in the distribution board.

In addition the 230V power supply circuit should also have an earth cable (known as a circuit protective conductor or "CPC").

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

^^^ what he says

There should be a 10 sq. mm earth cable (for equipotential bonding) connected to the gas pipe between the gas meter and the boiler. The other end of this cable should be connected to the earth bar in the distribution board.

In addition the 230V power supply circuit should also have an earth cable (known as a circuit protective conductor or "CPC").

Or it can be linked to the earth in the hot press. If copper is going from the hot press to the boiler in copper then the flow, return and gas to boiler can all be cross bonded under the boiler. Providing all copper in the hot press is properly bonded in 10mm2. Get an RGI who is up to date with wiring or get an electrician

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Or it can be linked to the earth in the hot press. If copper is going from the hot press to the boiler in copper then the flow, return and gas to boiler can all be cross bonded under the boiler. Providing all copper in the hot press is properly bonded in 10mm2.

I do not agree.
You are referring to cross bonding of conductive pipes within the hot press, which is completely different to the bonding of the incoming gas mains.
For a start the incoming gas mains would not pass through the hot press.

The bonding of the incoming gas pipe is outlined in 544 (page 126) and shown in Fig. 54.1 (page128) of ET101:2008

Get an RGI who is up to date with wiring or get an electrician

It is generally best to use electricians for electrical work

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

I do not agree.
You are referring to cross bonding of conductive pipes within the hot press, which is completely different to the bonding of the incoming gas mains.
For a start the incoming gas mains would not pass through the hot press.

The bonding of the incoming gas pipe is outlined in 544 (page 126) and shown in Fig. 54.1 (page128) of ET101:2008



It is generally best to use electricians for electrical
If The flow and return in the hot press are earthed in 10mm2 and it's copper all the way to the boiler, then linking them together at the boiler is permitted according to IS 813 gas regs.
As for electrical only for electricians.... Let's not get into that one. I know so many sparks that can't wire a pipe stat, don't run a neutral to a room stat, and don't know what the grey and orange are for on motorised valves. Now don't for a second think I'm accusing any sparks of that on here cause I'm not

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

If The flow and return in the hot press are earthed in 10mm2 and it's copper all the way to the boiler, then linking them together at the boiler is permitted according to IS 813 gas regs.

Yes, but we are discussing the bonding the incoming gas mains, not bonding the flow and return. Are you seriously suggesting that there is no need to bond the incoming gas pipe just because the flow and return to the hot press are bonded?

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

Yes, but we are discussing the bonding the incoming gas mains, not bonding the flow and return. Are you seriously suggesting that there is no need to bond the incoming gas pipe just because the flow and return to the hot press are bonded?

Absolutely not. Im talking about linking from the flow, to the return, to the gas at the boiler if copper is running from the hot press to the boiler if everything is earthed in the hot press already

Dtp1979

Maybe I'm reading this wrong.

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Absolutely not.

So if you agree that it is necessary to bond the incoming gas pipe, then you agree with what I said in post #3.
However this conflicts with your position in post #4, so you may want to rethink.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

So if you agree that it is necessary to bond the incoming gas pipe, then you agree with what I said in post #3.
However this conflicts with your position in post #4, so you may want to rethink.

I see what he means now..that drawing appears wrong

that extension of main equippotential bonding in metallic pipe doesn't comply with wiring rules afaik

the bond has to be extended in unbroken copper cable afaik


I just can't seem to locate relevant rules on it?

Dtp1979

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

I see what he means now..that drawing appears wrong

that extension of main equippotential bonding in metallic pipe doesn't comply with wiring rules afaik

the bond has to be extended in unbroken copper cable afaik


I just can't seem to locate relevant rules on it?

That pic is from the latest edition of the gas regs

2011

If it is electrical the regulations that must be complied with are "The National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)". Bonding and more specifically the bonding of gas and water services are dealt with throughly. this outlines the minimum standards that are required. There is even a diagram (Fig. 54.1) on page 128 of same.

There are lots of other diagrams, guidelines and advices in all sorts of publications that may or may not be correct.

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

If it is electrical the regulations that must be complied with are "The National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008)". Bonding and more specifically the bonding of gas and water services are dealt with throughly. this outlines the minimum standards that are required. There is even a diagram (Fig. 54.1) on page 128 of same.

There are lots of other diagrams, guidelines and advices in all sorts of publications that may or may not be correct.

Maybe you're right, maybe I'm looking at my diagram arseways. You'd imagine such an important thing would be identical in both sets of regs though

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

That pic is from the latest edition of the gas regs

I believe you but this does not mean that the ETCI regulations can be ignored.

The National Rules for Electrical installations (ET101:2008) 544.1.1 states:

"Main bonding conductors shall connect extraneous parts of main engineering services in a building such as pipe-work for gas, water and central heating and ducting for air conditioning, to the main earthing terminal."

I think that this is very clear.

As I am sure you know the "main earthing terminal" is located in the distribution board.

If you read 544.1.3 you will see what the main bonding conductor in a domestic installation is a 10mm^2 copper cable. So this rules out using the copper pipe as a main bonding conductor.

All of the above aligns perfectly with the diagram in Fig. 54.1 (referred to earlier).

Bruthal

Dtp1979 wrote: »

and don't know what the grey and orange are for on motorised valves.

What are they for?

2011

Incidentally 411.3.2 states that:

"Extraneous conductive parts originating outside the building shall be bonded as close as practicable to their points of entry into the building."

This would suggest that immediately downstream of the gas meter (in the meter box is not permitted) is the best place, not at the boiler as the diagram in the gas regs suggests.

tomdempsey200

equipotential bonding conductor:

definition; a protective conductor for ensuring equippotential bonding..
(page 13)



543.2.3
water pipes may not be used as protective conductors..

Dtp1979

Bruthal wrote: »

What are they for?

Is that a genuine question or are u testing me?

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

What are they for?

Decoration, just snip them off they only get in the way :D:D

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Is that a genuine question or are u testing me?

Redeem yourself, answer it :D:D

Dtp1979

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

equipotential bonding conductor:

definition; a protective conductor for ensuring equippotential bonding..
(page 13)



543.2.3
water pipes may not be used as protective conductors..

I dunno lads. Cer write both regs. Here's another diagram from IS813 2014 edition where copper is not used from the boiler to hot press.

Bruthal

I think its common sense for electrical people anyway, without any referencing of rules.

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I dunno lads. Cer write both regs. Here's another diagram from IS813 2014 edition where copper is not used from the boiler to hot press.

That diagram is correct and conflicts with your previous diagram.
It shows a bonding conductor from the incoming gas pipe to the MET as I stated in post #3.

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

Redeem yourself, answer it :D:D

Grey is perm live to MV
orange is SL out to boiler.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

I think its common sense for electrical people anyway, without any referencing of rules.

Yup, back to my earlier point "It is generally best to use electricians for electrical work "

tomdempsey200

his first diagram doesn't comply with ET101 anyhow

it has to be looped unbroken in copper cable to comply

afaik it's allowable to loop from water to gas.. although I've never worked on gas myself

Dtp1979

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

his first diagram doesn't comply with ET101 anyhow

it has to be looped unbroken in copper cable to comply

Lol lads they're not my personal diagrams. They're from the new gas regs realised a few weeks ago, written by the same guys who right your regs. I never once said they gas shouldn't be earthed.. My apologies to 2011 if it came across that way. The only point I was trying to highlight was the copper from boiler to hot press as opposed to plastic pipe where the second diagram is used. Our regs are contradicting each other

tomdempsey200

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Lol lads they're not my personal diagrams. They're from the new gas regs realised a few weeks ago, written by the same guys who right your regs. I never once said they gas shouldn't be earthed.. My apologies to 2011 if it came across that way. The only point I was trying to highlight was the copper from boiler to hot press as opposed to plastic pipe where the second diagram is used. Our regs are contradicting each other

they're not..

et101:2008 is the wiring rules

full stop..

Bruthal

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Lol lads they're not my personal diagrams. They're from the new gas regs realised a few weeks ago, written by the same guys who right your regs. I never once said they gas shouldn't be earthed.. My apologies to 2011 if it came across that way. The only point I was trying to highlight was the copper from boiler to hot press as opposed to plastic pipe where the second diagram is used. Our regs are contradicting each other

Yea the first diagram is showing that continuous copper coming from properly bonded hot press to the boiler, can cross bond onto the copper gas pipe at the boiler.

There should in reality be an unbroken 10 square earth bonding the gas pipe directly to the main earth bar.

Dtp1979

Bruthal wrote: »

Yea the first diagram is showing that continuous copper coming from properly bonded hot press to the boiler, can cross bond onto the copper gas pipe at the boiler.

There should in reality be an unbroken 10 square earth bonding the gas pipe directly to the main earth bar.

Yes I agree.

Dtp1979

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

they're not..

et101:2008 is the wiring rules

full stop..

They're not what?

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Lol lads they're not my personal diagrams. They're from the new gas regs realised a few weeks ago, written by the same guys who right your regs.

The ETCI (Electro-Technical Council of Ireland) write the electrical regulations, I very much doubt that they write the gas regulations.

I know that you did not draw the two diagrams that you posted, but surely you can see that these drawings conflict?

I never once said they gas shouldn't be earthed.. My apologies to 2011 if it came across that way.

No bother.

Our regs are contradicting each other

The electrical part of gas installation regulations is contradiction the ETCI regulations (ET101:2008).

It is best to follow gas regulations for gas installation and electrical regulations for electrical installation work.

tomdempsey200

what's the drawing doing there anyhow

why would RGIs be concerned with main bonding and working to a drawing that doesn't comply with ET101

a qualified electricIan's can't even wire a socket circuit now never mind RGIs working on main bonding

Dtp1979

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

what's the drawing doing there anyhow

why would RGIs be concerned with main bonding and working to a drawing that doesn't comply with ET101

a qualified electricIan's can't even wire a socket circuit now never mind RGIs working on main bonding

It's there because we bond gas lines when doing boiler installs ( obviously we don't go near the main board ). We also have to wire boilers cause sparks aren't allowed into gas boilers... But that's a different issue.

tomdempsey200

Dtp1979 wrote: »

It's there because we bond gas lines when doing boiler installs ( obviously we don't go near the main board ). We also have to wire boilers cause sparks aren't allowed into gas boilers... But that's a different issue.

ok.. but you're not an electrician?

you're working to a drawing that doesn't comply with ET101

and you're altering the main equipotential bonding in the installation?

ok...

Dtp1979

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

ok.. but you're not an electrician?

you're working to a drawing that doesn't comply with ET101

and you're altering the main equipotential bonding in the installation?

ok...

I didn't alter anything. I've never actually come across the situation stated above. There's always 10mm2 at the existing boiler.

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

It's there because we bond gas lines when doing boiler installs ( obviously we don't go near the main board ).

You are not permitted to do this.
As shown earlier in the thread to bond correctly the gas pipe should be connected to the MET which resides in the distribution board. Since the 1st of October 2013 it has been illegal for a non-Registered Electrical Contractor to work on the distribution board. This would most certainly apply to connecting a bonding conductor to the MET.

See link

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

You are not permitted to do this.
As shown earlier in the thread to bond correctly the gas pipe should be connected to the MET which resides in the distribution board. Since the 1st of October 2013 it has been illegal for a non-Registered Electrical Contractor to work on the distribution board. This would most certainly apply to connecting a bonding conductor to the MET.

See link

Did you not see where I said i never go near the board?

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Did you not see where I said i never go near the board?

To be fair you did.
But you also said "we bond gas lines when doing boiler installs".
When a professional makes a statement like that I read it as "we bond gas lines when doing boiler installs as per the relavent regulations", which in this case would be ET101:2008.

I am not trying to be pedantic, but if someone is going to do electrical work it should be done properly or not at all.

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

To be fair you did.
But you also said "we bond gas lines when doing boiler installs".
When a professional makes a statement like that I read it as "we bond gas lines when doing boiler installs as per the relavent regulations", which in this case would be ET101:2008.

I am not trying to be pedantic, but if someone is going to do electrical work it should be done properly or not at all.

I do all my electrical work properly. If I was to hire an Electrican to wire my systems it'd take too long to show him how to wire heating controls and explain what a switched live is in a gas boiler. Now lads I'm off out.

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I do all my electrical work properly.

... which means bonding the gas pipe to the MET which is located in the distribution board which you are not allowed to do by law. See link

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

... which means bonding the gas pipe to the MET which is located in the distribution board which you are not allowed to do by law. See link

The only time I ever saw the inside of a board was when a sparks was wiring it

2011

Dtp1979 wrote: »

The only time I ever saw the inside of a board was when a sparks was wiring it

...and you are better off that way.
Leave the electrical work to those that are qualified, insured, able to test, certify and legally permitted to do it. That way you are covered.
That is why I don't do it and for similar reasons I don't connect gas connections either

Dtp1979

2011 wrote: »

...and you are better off that way.
Leave the electrical work to those that are qualified, insured, able to test, certify and legally permitted to do it. That way you are covered.
That is why I don't do it and for similar reasons I don't connect gas connections either

Fair enough. I'm like you. I abide by the the law. I don't do anything I'm not allowed to do.

tomdempsey200

he should get onto RGI about that drawing

as its a pretty bad blooper and has never been acceptable to main bond in that way imo

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

he should get onto RGI about that drawing

as its a pretty bad blooper and has never been acceptable to main bond in that way imo

Better still would be for RGI to make in clear that only qualified electricians should be doing this type of work.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

Better still would be for RGI to make in clear that only qualified electricians should be doing this type of work.

yes absolutely ridiculous

considering the restrictions on qualified electricians


I know from my browsing of the UK. forums that structural steel is used as a main bonding conductor in some cases although it may be prohibited here

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

Better still would be for RGI to make in clear that only qualified Registered electricians should be doing this type of work.

FYP

tomdempsey200

WikiHow wrote: »

FYP

you couldn't make it up

RGIs having half an idea what they're doing

wrong drawings

playing around with main bonding


meanwhile qualified electricians can't take cover off a distribution board

Sir Arthur Daley

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you couldn't make it up

RGIs having half an idea what they're doing

wrong drawings

playing around with main bonding


meanwhile qualified electricians can't take cover off a distribution board

The RGI is only following his own bible so to speak, i.e like the drawing in post #9.