90% of consumers think farmers are getting a raw deal

Oink · 27-03-2014 11:46AM #1

Apparently farmers are being squeezed by supermarkets, and everybody knows it except the supermarkets.

As a consumer, I think it's about time the government get off their backside.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0327/604807-90-of-consumers-want-new-laws-to-protect-farmers/

" Almost 90% of consumers believe that legislation should be introduced to ensure that farmers receive a fair price for their food from supermarkets, according to a new Ipsos/MRBI survey. The study, which was commissioned by Agri Aware, also found that two-thirds of consumers believe supermarkets do not treat farmers fairly when buying their produce.
Just before Christmas leading supermarkets in Ireland engaged in a vegetable price war, which saw products like carrots being sold for as little as 5c per kilo, a fraction of what it costs farmers to produce them.
The agricultural community was outraged, although the National Consumer Agency said that it was good for consumers.
However, the survey suggests that consumers were far from impressed.
It finds that two-thirds believe that farm families are not treated fairly by the supermarkets.
Almost nine out of ten consumers said the Government should legislate to ensure farmers receive a fair price.
Although consumers were gifted with almost free vegetables at the time, the survey suggests that nearly two-thirds of them say that these price promotions are not good for consumers in the long run.
79% said that quality is more important than price."

MayoSalmon · 27-03-2014 12:35PM

What is the realtionship between farmers and supermarkets across the rest of Europe and the world?

Is this problem specific to Ireland and Irish farmers?

Oink · 27-03-2014 12:49PM

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What is the realtionship between farmers and supermarkets across the rest of Europe and the world?

Is this problem specific to Ireland and Irish farmers?

I am speaking as a consumer and I won't pretend to be an expert, so: I don't know. In a way you would hope that it only happens here but wherever it happens, it's wrong, and apparently 90% of consumers think so. Presumably a lot of farmers too?

bbam · 27-03-2014 01:17PM

Truthfully it's Teflon Larry that's facilitating the supermarkets to control the market.
And he's not doing it for free, it suits him well.

They are quite happy to sit back and let him do the dirty work of suppressing beef prices paid to farmers. He takes his slice and then passed on the beef to the supermarkets at the price of production or below it.

Historically farmers in Ireland are too fractured to band together and put an end to it.
The major farming representation is the IFA which rightly or wrongly has lost the confidence of many or all small farmers and is seen only to serve an elete few.

thomas anderson. · 27-03-2014 01:21PM

Why do the farmers care at what price the supermarket sells their product at as long as the're getting paid the same?

bbam · 27-03-2014 01:25PM

Same as what.

The problem isn't with supermarkets. But farmers aren't getting a fair price for cattle in factories. That's if they will take them at all.

thomas anderson. · 27-03-2014 01:34PM

bbam wrote: »

Same as what.

The problem isn't with supermarkets. But farmers aren't getting a fair price for cattle in factories. That's if they will take them at all.

A farmer sells 1 tonne of carrots to a supermarket for x amount and they sell it for y. Next month he sells 1 tonne of carrots to the same supermarket for x amount and thy sell it for z. What difference does it make to him at what price the supermarket sells his produce, he still gets paid the same amount?

Cattle wasnt mentioned in that article, they were on about the veg.

solerina · 27-03-2014 01:51PM

thomas anderson. wrote: »

A farmer sells 1 tonne of carrots to a supermarket for x amount and they sell it for y. Next month he sells 1 tonne of carrots to the same supermarket for x amount and thy sell it for z. What difference does it make to him at what price the supermarket sells his produce, he still gets paid the same amount?

Cattle wasnt mentioned in that article, they were on about the veg.

Farmers produce a product, it doesnt matter if the article refers to veg or animals, the same issue is there...the real problem is that farmers costs are going up year on year, fertiliser and diesel being the most obvious things that cost more....if fertiliser and diesel cost more then its more expensive to produce your product (be it veg or animals), the supermarket (and dodgy Larry) dont care and pay you the same as you got last time you sold, even though your expenses have massively increased....thats the reality for farmers !!

The_Pretender · 27-03-2014 01:53PM

thomas anderson. wrote: »

A farmer sells 1 tonne of carrots to a supermarket for x amount and they sell it for y. Next month he sells 1 tonne of carrots to the same supermarket for x amount and thy sell it for z. What difference does it make to him at what price the supermarket sells his produce, he still gets paid the same amount?

Cattle wasnt mentioned in that article, they were on about the veg.

Farmers are price takers, they can't dictate the value of their produce because of the homogenous nature. A carrot grown by one farmer is pretty much the same as one grown by a farmer in a different county.

Supermarkets can decide to only pay cost price for the produce, or in a lot of cases they may pay below cost. Farmers can't do anything about it because they have bills to pay and need to shift their stock to pay them.

If farmers were to come together and agree on a fair price for their produce and not sell below that, then it might work. Though the chances of them being able to cooperate and it working are slim, and supermarkets might then just decide to import the veg for cheaper, which would completely screw Irish farmers altogether. I'm not sure, but there's also a risk if they did come together that they could get in trouble, becuase it may be seen as a cartel, which isn't allowed.

Mad4simmental · 27-03-2014 01:59PM

thomas anderson. wrote: »

A farmer sells 1 tonne of carrots to a supermarket for x amount and they sell it for y. Next month he sells 1 tonne of carrots to the same supermarket for x amount and thy sell it for z. What difference does it make to him at what price the supermarket sells his produce, he still gets paid the same amount?

Cattle wasnt mentioned in that article, they were on about the veg.

It's the same with your beef, veg, bread and soon to be milk. They buy huge amounts for fu$k all of the farmer, sell it for cost or below cost. Because they are big company's they can sustain this hit for allot longer than your local butcher, veg shop/market, local milk man ect, thus squeezing them out of business and they control all of the market then. What happens when you only have one customer for your product????

That's right they give you a crap price and you take it or lump it.

You see farmers produce "products" that have a short shelf life when reddy.
Say you sow a crop of veg and it's reddy to harvest, if I offer you notting for it what can you do? It will rot into the ground with the cash you put into it. It's the same for beef.

It's a very hard time for farmers across the board that are not getting payed for what they do, and guess what it employes the most amount of people in the country and produces food for every home in the country.

Good deals in the supermarket are good at the time. But in the long run when they have complete controle of such product you pay for it in the long run. It's your bread, butter, milk, veg, meat I could rant all day about this.

Dont be daft · 27-03-2014 02:12PM

thomas anderson. wrote: »

A farmer sells 1 tonne of carrots to a supermarket for x amount and they sell it for y. Next month he sells 1 tonne of carrots to the same supermarket for x amount and thy sell it for z. What difference does it make to him at what price the supermarket sells his produce, he still gets paid the same amount?

Cattle wasnt mentioned in that article, they were on about the veg.

Surely your not so naive to think that when price y becomes price z that the farmer still gets price x?

In that scenario price x becomes x minus the difference between y and z ( and usually a small bit with it)

TBH I surprised at the results of this survey. I'm half thinking it must have been conducted outside a mart or something. From my interaction with people outside farming I'd say 90% couldn't give a fiddlers about farmers.

Timmaay · 27-03-2014 02:19PM

Dont be daft wrote: »

TBH I surprised at the results of this survey. I'm half thinking it must have been conducted outside a mart or something. From my interaction with people outside farming I'd say 90% couldn't give a fiddlers about farmers.

Theres a huge difference between having an option that the poor farmers are getting fleeced and actually going out and doing anything about it, you can bet your bottom dollar that the most of that 90% still will buy meat at the cheapest they can get it, to be honest I still certainly will, once its Irish and all that!

My question however would be where does supply and demand come into the equation, simple as is if beef farmers are getting such a poor price consistently then why keep producing? I know for sure that if the arse fell out of dairying long term, with no prospect of recovery the cows would be gone here and I'd be off to do another venture.

farmersfriend · 27-03-2014 02:22PM

thomas anderson. wrote: »

A farmer sells 1 tonne of carrots to a supermarket for x amount and they sell it for y. Next month he sells 1 tonne of carrots to the same supermarket for x amount and thy sell it for z. What difference does it make to him at what price the supermarket sells his produce, he still gets paid the same amount?

Cattle wasnt mentioned in that article, they were on about the veg.

Depends how much x is. X could be a price that covers costs and leaves no room for profit for the farmer

bbam · 27-03-2014 02:29PM

Dont be daft wrote: »

Surely your not so naive to think that when price y becomes price z that the farmer still gets price x?

In that scenario price x becomes x minus the difference between y and z ( and usually a small bit with it)

TBH I surprised at the results of this survey. I'm half thinking it must have been conducted outside a mart or something. From my interaction with people outside farming I'd say 90% couldn't give a fiddlers about farmers.

Of course your right. 90% of consumers don't really care where their food comes from. In Ireland we have essentially no food culture, for the masses food is seen at something to be bought at the cheapest price with no regard for health or it's Origen.

But also it is true that 90% of farmers could care less about other farmers or the overall business. Most are too busy doing what they did last year, five years ago and ten years ago to raise their heads and see what is going in. Many are still too pissed because OReillys bull trampled the spuds 30 years ago to unite with O'Reilly and others to out pressure on the market.

And many have the opinion that our major farming organisation writes off most small farmers as an inconvenience to be consumed at the first chance and that they only protect the large elete farms, who's sons and daughters make up the ranks of said organisation. Why would people join with am organisation like that.

Nothing will be done as there is still one operating facet of farming left, dairy. Given a few years this too will fall fowl of a "Teflon Larry". The future of farming is good, if your a processor because you have an endless supply of raw material being provided at below the cost of production, and you have a base of consumers wanting to be fed any old crap at low prices.

theaceofspies · 27-03-2014 02:56PM

Maybe in 5 years time we'll have a FairTrade label to support Irish Beef Farmers

bbam · 27-03-2014 03:03PM

theaceofspies wrote: »

Maybe in 5 years time we'll have a FairTrade label to support Irish Beef Farmers

Good idea.
But by then there'll be nothing to support only the feedlots and their cronies.

Muckit · 27-03-2014 03:25PM

Dont be daft wrote: »

Surely your not so naive to think that when price y becomes price z that the farmer still gets price x?

In that scenario price x becomes x minus the difference between y and z ( and usually a small bit with it)

TBH I surprised at the results of this survey. I'm half thinking it must have been conducted outside a mart or something. From my interaction with people outside farming I'd say 90% couldn't give a fiddlers about farmers.

I'd agree. The largest group of customers are from poor to middle class. They only have a certain amount of money that they can spend every week on their shop. They don't want to hear about farmers wanting to increase the price. It's no coincidence that one of the largest Tesco s in the country is located within walking distance of the poorest parts of Ballinasloe town.

They buy their clothes, medicines groceries. ... there is even a free phone laid on for a taxi!!

The boycotting by farmers wouldn't work. They'd bring it in from UK.

Supermarkets have taken over. They have been allowed to get too big. They sell clothes, groceries, drink, electrical goods and insurance. What bloody next?? They hold the power. We're effectively 'owned' by supermarkets!!

bbam · 27-03-2014 03:42PM

Muckit wrote: »

I'd agree. The largest group of customers are from poor to middle class. They only have a certain amount of money that they can spend every week on their shop. They don't want to hear about farmers wanting to increase the price. It's no coincidence that one of the largest Tesco s in the country is located within walking distance of the poorest parts of Ballinasloe town.

They buy their clothes, medicines groceries. ... there is even a free phone laid on for a taxi!!

The boycotting by farmers wouldn't work. They'd bring it in from UK.

Supermarkets have taken over. They have been allowed to get too big. They sell clothes, groceries, drink, electrical goods and insurance. What bloody next?? They hold the power. We're effectively 'owned' by supermarkets!!

What next??
Nothing..
Between the SPF system and the highly orchastrated price control exerted by the supermarkets/processors they have acheived the perfect balance. Lads are beavering away to produce their beef and veg at cost while they control all the profits..
The consumer has become so dumbed down that many would be afraid to walk into a butcher shop and ask about meat.. its easier to pick a pack of 10 burgers off the shelf for €2 and they can go on pretending to themselves that they are getting "prime irish beef".

Conmaicne Mara · 27-03-2014 03:42PM

Muckit wrote: »

It's no coincidence that one of the largest Tesco s in the country is located within walking distance of the poorest parts of Ballinasloe town.

If you shop in Aldi, Lidl, and Supervalu and compare both prices and quality to what you get in Tesco, Tesco are more expensive. More frequently will you get poor meat and particularly poor veg and fruit in Tesco. Supervalu and Aldi are the best of those supermarkets for both price and quality when both are taken into account.

Timmaay · 27-03-2014 04:18PM

bbam wrote: »

Of course your right. 90% of consumers don't really care where their food comes from. In Ireland we have essentially no food culture, for the masses food is seen at something to be bought at the cheapest price with no regard for health or it's Origen.

Muckit wrote: »

The largest group of customers are from poor to middle class. They only have a certain amount of money that they can spend every week on their shop. They don't want to hear about farmers wanting to increase the price. It's no coincidence that one of the largest Tesco s in the country is located within walking distance of the poorest parts of Ballinasloe town.

Agreed with both of these. Studies on obesity have also clearly seen a link between your social class/level of education, and the risk of becoming obese, basically if your parents tend not to be great cooks and just order take away etc, or basic meat (of which the meat content is the utterly cheapest crap), then the kids certainly wont know how to cook and will continue that lifestyle. The likes of this combined with what bbam says about the lack of a food culture results in a lower demand for premium quality food.

I'm not changing my opinion that some of it is still a supply and demand issue with farmers willing to produce at a loss/low margin, but just stating its a combination of many different elements which results in a fairly bleak outlook for beef, and I'm thankful that I'm largely sheltered from it all with dairying being my main business.

micraX · 27-03-2014 08:47PM

Speaking in relation to veg only.

Farmers/growers/produces brought thus on them selves.
For years everyone grew a lot of different things on small amounts, supplying Dublin market and a small few other outlets as well as small local shops restaurants (not much preparing then)
Etc.

Then the supermarkets came in, at first they got stuff in the market like all other places they they started getting facilitators like Donnelly, K&K, Meade, Sam Dennigan, Total Produce, C.Magee etc.
The facilitators soon got well in with the growers, growers were getting very good money as facilitators were getting paid well from the supermarkets. The growers started getting more and more specialized and concentrating on only 2 or 3 crops, small lads where getting squeezed out of the market and their ground was usually taken by the bigger lads. Then when the supermarkets had them selves set up, they dine what people predicted, cut the prices, by over 50%, but they had everyone were they wanted them, specialized in crops and they knew that if they dropped the price the grower would have to take the cut or be stuck with a crop.

Most supermarkets put a tender out for facilitators every few years (Tesco and Dunnes deal directly with growers to a certain extent)

This year Aldi is after messing this system up. They have started 4 month tendering.
This isn't right or fair on growers as it's playing them and facilitators off against each other in a race to the bottom with prices.
A grower could have a program of produce planted and before it's ready to be harvested the facilitator could lose the contract and have no market for the produce, so the grower is stuck with the crop.
(each facilitator has its own few growers so they are being played against each other.)

Growers won't refuse to supply, I have been at many grower meetings and everyone knows it's someone in the room that will undercut the others.

There will always be one lad selling at a loss or near loss to clear a field or so others will think he's busy.
It's a very backstabbing industry and growers can't go on the news or radio to complain or be seen at protests as thew know they'll lose the order.

I hope this makes things clearer, any questions feel free to ask.

biddy2013 · 27-03-2014 09:23PM

Muckit wrote: »

It's no coincidence that one of the largest Tesco s in the country is located within walking distance of the poorest parts of Ballinasloe town.

Tesco is one of the dearest supermarkets now. Aldi and lidl have taken over. Find it hard to get a parking space in aldi somedays. Full trolley 100 euroin aldi full trolley in tesco over 200 euro

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 27-03-2014 09:29PM

How much of the food we buy is actually Irish produce? Isn't most of our domestic production exported?

And, when we talk about domestic food products, do we include things like Supervalu Orange Juice, made with only wholesome Irish Oranges grown on family farms in Mayo.

big_spoon · 27-03-2014 09:37PM

biddy2013 wrote: »

Tesco is one of the dearest supermarkets now. Aldi and lidl have taken over. Find it hard to get a parking space in aldi somedays. Full trolley 100 euroin aldi full trolley in tesco over 200 euro

should be the other way around IMO as the food quality in aldi is superior , especially fruit and veg

I think aldi is considerably better than lidl though lidl has a nice bakery in the store near me

biddy2013 · 27-03-2014 09:44PM

big_spoon wrote: »

should be the other way around IMO as the food quality in aldi is superior , especially fruit and veg

I think aldi is considerably better than lidl though lidl has a nice bakery in the store near me

YES, aldi is brilliant. Shop there every week, top up in supervalu every so often, went to sv today 6 gallia melons for 6 euro, lambs liver etc. spent 35 euro , 12 euro irish products savings of 13 euro

Pharaoh1 · 27-03-2014 10:24PM

Timmaay wrote: »

Theres a huge difference between having an option that the poor farmers are getting fleeced and actually going out and doing anything about it, you can bet your bottom dollar that the most of that 90% still will buy meat at the cheapest they can get it, to be honest I still certainly will, once its Irish and all that!

My question however would be where does supply and demand come into the equation, simple as is if beef farmers are getting such a poor price consistently then why keep producing? I know for sure that if the arse fell out of dairying long term, with no prospect of recovery the cows would be gone here and I'd be off to do another venture.

Today's IFJ headline "Sharp fall in beef calf births" may signal that at least some unprofitable farmers are reducing output or exiting the business. The thing is the Journal seems to regard this as some sort of crisis when it really should be encouraged if it results in profitable beef production in the longer term.
Most will probably get back in as soon as there are signs of a price lift and together with dairy bred beef I'm sure we'll see a plentiful supply for years to come to keep the factories happy.

bbam · 27-03-2014 10:37PM

I can't see a solution to the slippery slope were on.

I genuinely don't think there are enough concerned clued in consumers who really want irish produced food. And there definitely aren't enough interested in gourmet foods.

There is no appetite in government to address the imbalance of power the supermarkets/ factories have.

The beef industry is being heavily manipulated. Sounds like fruit and veg is the same. Will it be long before dairy goes the same?

I don't believe the IFA have the backing of a sufficient number of farmers to make a difference, nor do I know if they deserve more support.

I see farms here that once supported while families now incapable of surviving without EU subsidisation, and even then couldn't support a family.

It's amazing to see reports saying that so many students are rushing to Ag colleges to be part of our booming Agri Foods sector. I'd wonder will there be much for them to be involved in when their done. If the impending dairy expansion turns out to be a bubble the outlook is indeed bleak.

micraX · 27-03-2014 11:03PM

biddy2013 wrote: »

YES, aldi is brilliant. Shop there every week, top up in supervalu every so often, went to sv today 6 gallia melons for 6 euro, lambs liver etc. spent 35 euro , 12 euro irish products savings of 13 euro

People with that attitude and ignorance makes me sick. You think that stuff can be produced at those prices sustainable?

Lano Lynn · 27-03-2014 11:06PM

tourist wants to fly first class they pay for it
the banks want to hire top ceo they pay for it
we are told if we want good politicians we have to pay they appropriatly:rolleyes:
supermarkets wants total control and pay nothing for it.

there was no respect for cheap easy credit the same is true of food.
when ya mince up fat cull cow throw in a bit of horse make it into a 20c burger,economists call this added value

the failure of the EU to address the food security/cost of production/retail prices&monopolys in the same way as they do for food 'safety' and traceability.

the proportion of average income spent on food has decreased to something like 8 or 10%

like the banks the supermarkets are to large to fail they employ so many people no national government is going to say boo to them.

bbam · 27-03-2014 11:24PM

micraX wrote: »

People like you and your ignorance makes me sick. You think that stuff can be produced at those prices sustainable?

I think your remarks do nothing for the forum.

micraX · 27-03-2014 11:25PM

bbam wrote: »

I think your remarks do nothing for the forum.

What do you mean by that?

90% of consumers think farmers are getting a raw deal

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