Inquiry set up into taping of phone calls from Garda stations

Santa Cruz wrote: »

GSOC is free. The solicitors will take a case on a no foal no fee basis.

And who takes the costs when the court case fails Santa Cruz? The solicitors?

Do you think they would bother with such a risk in relatively uncharted legal territory?

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

Fcuk me. If they don't turn up, their donut allowance gets halved. You happy now Coolemon? We all know what happens, we get it, they have it in for you. Grand. Sorted. Point made. Any hope of moving the wagons on a notch? This is a fierce boggy spot to be stopped at.

Not just me. It is systematic.

Apologies if you read my posts wrong.

coolemon wrote: »

So if you arrest and charge someone for something you know they didn't do (perhaps because they stood up for their legal rights or you took a disliking to them), and for which you fabricated the event and charges in the court pressay, and then you don't turn up for court and to the trial on the day - thus wasting court time, the defendants time, the witnesses time, the solicitors and barristers time - and all the associated waste and costs that go along with it.

What are the consequences for you in this systemically occurring example?

Happened to me last year. The case is struck out. And the little grunt of a guard had no apparent consequences for his malpractice.

And that's just one example of systemic Garda abuse and malpractice I alone have encountered.

Now you either have your head buried in the sand or are lyng on here because the dogs on the street know you and your colleagues act with near impunity.

I can't answer some of your questions because you're not giving all the facts. What were you arrested for? Why were you arrested? Why didn't the Garda turn up in court?

I'll tell you what i believe may have happened, on the complete lack of evidence i have before me.
- Something happened.
- You were, for reasons unknown because you believe you're innocent and we don't have the Garda here to give his side. So, you were arrested on suspicion.
- You don't tell us the circumstances, so either you made no comment or there was sufficient evidence to prosecute without you admitting it.
- You were either charged or summonsed to court.
- The court day arrives and the member doesn't turn up. There could be multiple reasons - leave, sickness, family emergency, didn't receive notification, in a higher court elsewhere, in hospital, working and couldn't get the time to go to court, was told it wasn't going ahead, and there's more.
- Case gets struck out for x reason

What's the issue? Obviously, he believed that there were sufficient grounds to get you to court, and for whatever reason it didn't go ahead (i'm not accepting your side of the story, as it is biased and i cannot in good conscience make a decision on a one sided story). This happens everyday, in every court, for multiple reasons. If you feel you've been wronged, GSOC is there. If they decided there was nothing to merit investigation, well then i'm happy to go with their decisions, because they love bringing Guards to court. If you feel GSOC have wronged you, you go to a solicitor. If you're so sure that you've been wronged, then you shouldn't be worried about the case not going your way.

I would try and give a more accurate account of your case, but unless you can provide me with the court file, then i can't help you any further. I will say that we're busy enough that we don't have the time, let alone be bothered, to "stitch someone up" (not your quote). Plus, without sufficient evidence, you would not have been charged/summonsed in the first place.

I feel like you have a slight chip on your shoulder. Are you a Freeman of the land by any chance? Genuine question.

To answer a bit of your question, if a member is found to have breached regulations internally, he has a number of disciplinary actions which can be taken against him, from a reprimand to being fired.

coolemon wrote: »

Of course.

But I am pointing out malpractice which never reaches the stage of being considered a disciplinary offence.

I would say, in fact, that this practice of tying people up in court is actively encouraged by the Garda hierarchy. They know that there is no consequences for a guard for wasting a defendants time, their witnesses time and the courts time by charging people and then not turning up in court. the guard is probably commended for it for all I know.

This tactic is particularly used against political activists to tie them up in court and to dissuade any future challenge to Garda malpractice in relation to their policing of demonstrations and political activities.

Want to know about wasting time? Criminals do it all the time. The state gets maybe 1 chance to put a case back, 2 in extreme circumstances, after which the case is premptory against the state, ie: if they don't go ahead the next time the case is thrown out. Criminals get a hell of a lot more than 2 adjournments while the poor aul soul gets his life in order, ie: commits more crime.

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Are you for real ?

A Guard arrests someone for no reason and charges them with some offence and this is not malpractice or a disciplinary offence!
You have really lost it.

And now we are on the political activist trail. You have shown your agenda now

Of course it is malpractice.

but trying to prove it or demonstrate that is another matter entirely, particularly when conditions are against you.

A bit like when there was systematic abuse of people by powerful religious institutions and nobody would listen to people who try speak out.

I can see how it went on for so long when you have people who smugly condemn people who speak out against established power and patterns of behaviour and practice.

coolemon wrote: »

1. A garda can arrest and charge an individual (particularly if he has fellow garda witnesses) knowing that the person did not commit the alleged offence.

2. that when it comes to court, that garda can decide to not turn up.

3. That there is no consequences for that particular, and most common of practices, of garda not turning up - for whatever reason and in most cases.

4. The defendant is left with little options in regard comeback. Particularly when the case has been struck out rather than dismissed. And particularly when the offence is relatively minor so as to not incite GSOC or legal firms to fight a retributive case.

Do you follow?

So what are the consequences for gardai not turning up in court? I wont speak from my own experiences as it will not be believed anyway, it seems.

1 - I have never witnessed or seen such a case. Any case before the court that i am privy to have been genuine.

2 - If the Garda did not turn he, he had good reason, because there is consequences for that action. The Inspector/Super does not like to be left look like a fool without a valid reason for the member not showing up. If he doesn't have a valid reason, you can guarantee that there would be consequences (happened me once, worked a full week of nights and was expected to be in court at 10am after finishing at 6am (after a 7 day week of nights), i slept in and missed the court. I was reprimanded.)

3- See above. And as i said, Inspectors/Supers would not leave non-attendance at court go.

4 - There is great options for comeback. The ECHR covers being arrested illegally. If a solicitor or GSOC are not satisified that a breach of the convention took place, then i would believe them, as they deal with these cases on a day to day basis (i'm pretty sure "I was illegally arrested" is a common complaint received by GSOC and Solicitors). There is no such thing as a major and minor illegal arrest.

And as i explained previously, the consequences for not attending court, or more specifically breaching the Code, go from a reprimand to being fired. If there was evidence of malpractice, then so be it, there would be a case.

keith16 wrote: »

And what? We are supposed to take that statement as fact? Based on your one experience?

It was actually in the media last year. the systematic practice of Gardaí not turning up in court. ill try find it for you.

here is one instance, ill look for the report. - http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-who-pleaded-guilty-freed-after-gardas-court-noshow-28896038.html

Firstly, how does a guard not turning up for court for minor offences make their inspector look like a fool? An Inspector presents the case and the Garda is called as a witness. The court will want to know why the State doesn't have a witness, and if he doesn't have an answer he's left there standing like a fool apologising to the Judge.

Second. Why would the inspector care? What consequences are for him? The Inspector presents the case, and it makes the State look bad. This is turn can effect a Judges perception of the Inspector that he's not able to manage his personnel. It's up to the Inspector to ensure witnesses are there, as he has to answer as to why they're not.

Third. How does the inspector find out or follow whether the Garda turned up or not? If the Garda is supposed to be there and s/he isn't, the Inspector will know and will request a report from the member through his/her Sergeant.

Fourth. Would it not be in the interests of and actively encouraged by a unit specifically assigned the role of looking after public order/demonstrations to tie activists up in court? Pearse Street garda station, for example? No. They, like any member of AGS, bring people to court only if they believe they have sufficient grounds for believing so. It has nothing to do with tieing up activists. I'm guessing this is an indication of why you were in court.

Because from what I saw there was no consequences. You may not have heard of the consequences, but i can guarantee there was, and you may not be privy to that information either as it's an internal matter.

I think perhaps, my own two cents, that those serving in the force ought to read a bit of foucault....

The only misguidedness here is in what society expects form a police force, what the state expects, and what actually is reality.