Modern Irish slavery

kumate_champ07 · 22-03-2014 05:25PM

bikerjohn wrote: »

This is my Slavery!!

So an owner walks into his factory on a Monday morning and rounds up his staff and says ok I need all you guys to work for 20% less but I want increased output .I want a large %%% of you to work in a new factory 75 miles away but you can make your own way there everyday and I will not compensate you I want all of you guys to be supervisors in 5 years time but we only got (10 positions and there is 80 of you) if not your fired.I want jimmy who started yesterday to work alongside tony for 10% less oh and finally I want you all to SMILE while this is happening ...REACTION FROM STAFF well you can all guess that one ...Except if your a Member of the Irish Defence Forces then you just take it and take it once they have drained you financially they will go after you mentally because you got no more to give .Defence Force Members have suffered most in the Public Service (FACT).DDFPAC2014

should we be worried about invasion by another country? I dont know the exact details but it makes sense to cut that budget more than others.

also it seemed to be a gravy train for a long time. lads were retiring in their 50's , getting their army pension and working a part time job.

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 05:26PM

taytothief wrote: »

I love it, a guy complains about obscene levels of tax in this country, and everyone attacks him. Boards.ie

Taxes are higher in other countries.

I wonder did the OP ever vote for Fianna Failure - the short-termist's party? "JAM TODAY! (paid for with national bankruptcy tomorrow)"

clashburke · 22-03-2014 05:41PM

Montgolfier wrote: »

Am I right in saying the whole country is getting screwed on taxes.
I probably take home 40% of what I earn, if I spend that 40% take away another 23% so that leaves 17%.
Gov and people in the top jobs won't take a pay cut because they have huge mortgages and it wouldn't do If they couldn't pay the banks.
It amounts to Irish slavery earning just enough to survive but not enough to change your situation.

Montgolfier wrote: »

Just utterly frustrated I work hard have a young family wife's not working so she minds the kids, we don't eat/drink out and we have feck all at the end of the month.
Granted I didn't do my sums, I am on the higher rate of tax, and then USC, Prsi, pension (you might say the last one is a choice but is it really in this day and age.)
On top there's Road Tax, NCT, TV licence, Property Tax, and my point is it doesn't end there, as everything you pay for has VAT 23% on it.
The gap between the rich and poor is one of the highest in Europe according to newstalk the other day.

so you pay 20% on the first €32,800 and 41% on the rest of your income. Add to this 4%(ish) PRSI and 4% USC.

How in the name of Jesus are ya only taken home 40%??:rolleyes:

and VAT is not calculated that way!!

For Forks Sake · 22-03-2014 06:16PM

clashburke wrote: »

so you pay 20% on the first €32,800 and 41% on the rest of your income. Add to this 4%(ish) PRSI and 4% USC.

How in the name of Jesus are ya only taken home 40%??:rolleyes:

You don't even pay 20% on the first 32800 as OP has failed to factor the tax credits into their calculation as well

Stavros Murphy · 22-03-2014 06:25PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Nah, it's about a guy paying taxes in a democracy to support public services and infrastructure.

LOL. And bailouts, cock-ups, massive, obscene Public Pensions, white elephants and jobs for the boys.

I'd moan about the taxes I pay, but no-one would believe me and I'd be called a Walter Mitty, as per usual. A taster would be the 4.5k I forked over last week. Which was not that different to the week before.

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 06:29PM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

LOL. And bailouts, cock-ups, massive, obscene Public Pensions, white elephants and jobs for the boys.

I'd moan about the taxes I pay, but no-one would believe me and I'd be called a Walter Mitty, as per usual. A taster would be the 4.5k I forked over last week. Which was not that different to the week before.

You must be earning well.

Sure, we are also paying for the property bust. Who voted for the people who created the bubble? About half the electorate. Take it up with them.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 06:37PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Taxes are higher in other countries.

I wonder did the OP ever vote for Fianna Failure - the short-termist's party? "JAM TODAY! (paid for with national bankruptcy tomorrow)"

Direct marginal taxes on wages are amongst the highest in the world here and the marginal rate cones in lower than most places.

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 06:47PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Direct marginal taxes on wages are amongst the highest in the world here and the marginal rate cones in lower than most places.

Apologies for formatting. Our tax on labour is well below OECD average.

The average tax burden for those earning the average wage increased by a 0.5 percentage point rise in 2011 and 0.1 percentage points in 2012 to reach 35.6 per cent. This followed a decline from 36.1 to 35.0 per cent between 2007 and 2010. (See table 2 in excel).

Country Tax%
Belgium 56.0 0.12 0.00 -0.01 0.12
France 50.2 0.46 0.29 -0.03 0.20
Germany 49.7 0.53 0.18 0.17 0.18
Hungary 49.4 2.82 1.65 1.17 0.00
Austria 48.9 0.71 0.71 0.00 0.00
Italy 47.6 0.43 0.43 0.00 0.00
Sweden 42.8 0.09 0.10 -0.01 0.00
Finland 42.5 0.22 -0.52 0.40 0.33
Czech Republic 42.4 0.28 0.28 0.00 0.00
Slovenia 42.3 -0.19 -0.19 0.00 0.00
Greece 41.9 2.80 2.15 0.34 0.30
Spain 41.4 1.65 1.65 0.00 0.00
Estonia 40.4 0.31 0.31 0.00 0.00
Slovak Republic 39.6 1.71 0.82 -0.14 1.03
Netherlands 38.6 0.46 0.26 -0.10 0.30
Denmark 38.6 0.25 8.23 -7.99 0.00
Turkey 38.2 0.30 0.30 0.00 0.00
Norway 37.6 0.27 0.05 -0.02 0.24
Portugal 36.7 -0.39 -0.39 0.00 0.00
Luxembourg 35.8 1.43 0.79 0.01 0.64
Poland 35.5 1.26 0.04 -0.27 1.49
Iceland 34.5 1.15 1.90 -0.01 -0.73
United Kingdom 32.3 -0.25 -0.70 0.24 0.21
Japan 31.2 0.94 -0.15 0.55 0.53
Canada 30.8 0.32 -0.04 0.06 0.29
United States 29.6 -0.88 0.85 -1.83 0.10
Australia 27.2 0.38 0.62 0.00 -0.24
Ireland 25.9 0.12 3.73 -3.60 0.00
Switzerland 21.5 -0.13 -0.48 0.18 0.18
Korea 21.0 0.84 0.28 0.30 0.27
Israel 19.2 -0.22 -0.16 -0.07 0.01
Mexico 19.0 3.43 3.46 0.00 -0.03
New Zealand 16.4 -0.60 -0.60 0.00 0.00
Chile 7.0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
OECD 35.6 0.6 0.8 -0.3 0.2

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 06:51PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Apologies for formatting. Our tax on labour is well below OECD average.Country Tax%
Belgium 56.0 0.12 0.00 -0.01 0.12
France 50.2 0.46 0.29 -0.03 0.20
Germany 49.7 0.53 0.18 0.17 0.18
Hungary 49.4 2.82 1.65 1.17 0.00
Austria 48.9 0.71 0.71 0.00 0.00
Italy 47.6 0.43 0.43 0.00 0.00
Sweden 42.8 0.09 0.10 -0.01 0.00
Finland 42.5 0.22 -0.52 0.40 0.33
Czech Republic 42.4 0.28 0.28 0.00 0.00
Slovenia 42.3 -0.19 -0.19 0.00 0.00
Greece 41.9 2.80 2.15 0.34 0.30
Spain 41.4 1.65 1.65 0.00 0.00
Estonia 40.4 0.31 0.31 0.00 0.00
Slovak Republic 39.6 1.71 0.82 -0.14 1.03
Netherlands 38.6 0.46 0.26 -0.10 0.30
Denmark 38.6 0.25 8.23 -7.99 0.00
Turkey 38.2 0.30 0.30 0.00 0.00
Norway 37.6 0.27 0.05 -0.02 0.24
Portugal 36.7 -0.39 -0.39 0.00 0.00
Luxembourg 35.8 1.43 0.79 0.01 0.64
Poland 35.5 1.26 0.04 -0.27 1.49
Iceland 34.5 1.15 1.90 -0.01 -0.73
United Kingdom 32.3 -0.25 -0.70 0.24 0.21
Japan 31.2 0.94 -0.15 0.55 0.53
Canada 30.8 0.32 -0.04 0.06 0.29
United States 29.6 -0.88 0.85 -1.83 0.10
Australia 27.2 0.38 0.62 0.00 -0.24
Ireland 25.9 0.12 3.73 -3.60 0.00
Switzerland 21.5 -0.13 -0.48 0.18 0.18
Korea 21.0 0.84 0.28 0.30 0.27
Israel 19.2 -0.22 -0.16 -0.07 0.01
Mexico 19.0 3.43 3.46 0.00 -0.03
New Zealand 16.4 -0.60 -0.60 0.00 0.00
Chile 7.0 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
OECD 35.6 0.6 0.8 -0.3 0.2

That's the "tax wedge". The difference between what an employee pays and what he gets but it includes the employers liability. Probably it's employer PRSI - but also other costs largely borne by the employer - in places like Brussels.

So for instance that shows the cost in Ireland to be 25% and in the UK it's 32% but income tax is higher here marginally and comes in at a lower salary.

52% is higher than pretty much anywhere else.

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 06:54PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That's the "tax wedge". The difference between what an employee pays and what he gets but it includes the employers liability. Probably it's employer PRSI - but also other costs largely borne by the employer - in places like Brussels.

It's not marginal rates on employees income. 52% is higher than pretty much anywhere else.

Yes, these figures specifically relate to average earners. Lower employers' liability implies both more jobs and higher wages/salaries. Obviously if you are earning huge money, you are paying a good whack in tax these days. But I sense that most Irish people like that idea ('fat cats', etc.).

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 07:05PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Yes, these figures specifically relate to average earners. Lower employers' liability implies both more jobs and higher wages/salaries. Obviously if you are earning huge money, you are paying a good whack in tax these days. But I sense that most Irish people like that idea ('fat cats', etc.).

Most people probably like the idea that the "fat cats" should pay more money but most people are wise enough to not equate slightly above wage earners with Fat cats. Unless they have an agenda.

The 52% kicks in at 32.8k for single earners.

Stavros Murphy · 22-03-2014 07:23PM

Direct taxation on income may be below the OECD average, but on the bit we take home, we get hammered with secondary taxes, charges and schemes - VRT for example..ahem, go defend that..or taxation on fuels, cigarettes, alcohol, now homes, water soon to be, high insurance rates, massive rates of Vehicle Tax compared to elsewhere, very high prices for day to day goods compared to almost the entire rest of the world, huge hikes in the cost of essential medicines, very high rents, expensive public transport.

So basically, we start out having a fairly high rate of taxation, then get rogered up the Finn McCool with the unavoidable cost of daily living.

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 07:24PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Most people probably like the idea that the "fat cats" should pay more money but most people are wise enough to not equate slightly above wage earners with Fat cats. Unless they have an agenda.

The 52% kicks in at 32.8k for single earners.

Most people are wise? I wish. Who the hell was voting for the corrupt bubble merchants from the late 90s to the late 2000s?

The 32.8k assumes no family or other allowances, right?

losthorizon · 22-03-2014 07:26PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Taxes are higher in other countries.

I wonder did the OP ever vote for Fianna Failure - the short-termist's party? "JAM TODAY! (paid for with national bankruptcy tomorrow)"

WE have one of the lowest tax rates in Europe.

I would actually be in favour of higher tax rates and better services.

Although I think bin collections should be free (would help to stop illegal dumping) but can see the rationale in getting people to pay for it but am totally in favour of water charges.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 07:29PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

Most people are wise? I wish. Who the hell was voting for the corrupt bubble merchants from the late 90s to the late 2000s?

The 32.8k assumes no family or other allowances, right?

It's the standard tax rate. Is it higher and does it come in at a lower rate than most of Europe or not?

Answer. Yes it does. Therefore the standard marginal rate on wages is the highest in Europe by a long shot.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 07:30PM

losthorizon wrote: »

WE have one of the lowest tax rates in Europe.

I would actually be in favour of higher tax rates and better services.

Although I think bin collections should be free (would help to stop illegal dumping) but can see the rationale in getting people to pay for it but am totally in favour of water charges.

Why don't we get better services already for the 52% marginal? When are the public sector going to step up to the plate?

Donkey Oaty · 22-03-2014 07:33PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Why don't we get better services already for the 52% marginal?

Or in some cases, even just services.

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 07:35PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

It's the standard tax rate. Is it higher and does it come in at a lower rate than most of Europe or not?

Answer. Yes it does. Therefore the standard marginal rate on wages is the highest in Europe by a long shot.

And yet I posted a table that shows the taxes on labour for the average worker to be amongst the lowest in the OECD, and well below the average.

Perhaps you have a table of the marginal rates in the OECD you could post to support your argument? Baldly stating that 52% is the highest in Europe doesn't really convince me.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 07:44PM

I'm am always amused by the skirting around with figures here. I originally said

"Direct marginal taxes on wages re amongst the highest in the world here and the marginal rate cones in lower than most places."

Which is unequivocally true. As anybody who earns more than 32k as a wage would know. In fact this affects anybody on that wage and anybody aspiring to it. I opposed it when I earned less than 32k.

I didn't say income. I said wages. There are all kinds of income and any millionaire who is paying 52% on earnings more than 32K has a very bad accountant indeed. For instance CGT is only 30%, money can be hidden in pensions, some investments accrue no tax on capital gains at all. Or you can earn tax free money as a gift, or as an inheritance ( to a limit), or sell you house in Dalkey for a 3 million profit and earn 250k per year of occupancy paying no tax as it was the family home, as Ireland's most earnest egalitarian did quite recently. Rich people would know more tricks, but nobody who is a real fat cat is paying 52% on 32.8k and above.

It's the sum of all these figures - and the low to non-existant corporation tax - which is used to "prove" overall tax rates are low, and we can't expect decent services from people earning 200k as hospital administrators.

But the 52% taken from my minuscule bonus this year tells me otherwise. And I do expect better services, and now.

Cool Mo D · 22-03-2014 07:45PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Most people probably like the idea that the "fat cats" should pay more money but most people are wise enough to not equate slightly above wage earners with Fat cats. Unless they have an agenda.

The 52% kicks in at 32.8k for single earners.

The high band income tax rate is actually 41%, so I don't know what you're talking about with 52%.

As an actual example, a single person earning €60,000 a year has an effective tax rate of 29.5%, including PRSI and USC. If they were earning €100,000 a year, they would have an effective rate of 34%. At a salary of €250,000, you pay an effective rate of 38%. It's basically impossible to be paying half your income in tax.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 07:45PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

And yet I posted a table that shows the taxes on labour for the average worker to be amongst the lowest in the OECD, and well below the average.

Perhaps you have a table of the marginal rates in the OECD you could post to support your argument? Baldly stating that 52% is the highest in Europe doesn't really convince me.

The problem with your table is it is total bollocks and not what I am talking about.

I said "marginal rates of tax are higher and come in at lower wage than the European average" not "the tax wedge on employers is really high".

A tax wedge is not necessarily paid by the employee. Here most of the money taken from a 40k job by the governmentis taken in the form of taxes on workers ( except for employer PRSI) in other countries significant amounts are taken from the employer. And since the extortionate tax I am talking about - which I clearly said was the highest marginal not overall rate - comes in at (slightly) above the average wage your tables is either worthless or deliberately disengenous.

Donkey Oaty · 22-03-2014 07:50PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It's basically impossible to be paying half your income in tax.

Direct taxation, yes. But another way of looking at it is this:

How much did you spend last year?

How much of that went to the government?

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 07:58PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The high band income tax rate is actually 41%, so I don't know what you're talking about with 52%.

As an actual example, a single person earning €60,000 a year has an effective tax rate of 29.5%, including PRSI and USC. If they were earning €100,000 a year, they would have an effective rate of 34%. At a salary of €250,000, you pay an effective rate of 38%. It's basically impossible to be paying half your income in tax.

Can you all go away and learn two things.

1) what the marginal rate of tax means.
2) what a tax is.

Given the level of discourse on this thread I wouldn't put it past a government to push USC to 65%. When we complain about earning nothing we 'll be told the tax is just 41%.

PRSI is also a tax. They don't put it in a different pot. There is no limit to it.

So what's 41 + 7 + 4?

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 08:02PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The problem with your table is it is total bollocks and not what I am talking about.

It's not my table, it's the OECD, who frankly have more credibility than some anonymous guy on the internet - no offense.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I said "marginal rates of tax are higher and come in at lower wage than the European average" not "the tax wedge on employers is really high".

The table shows tax on labour. If the employer pays less tax, they can afford to pay higher wages. So the total tax on labour is indeed totally relevant to this discussion, and ours is one of the lowest in the OECD.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

A tax wedge is not necessarily paid by the employee. Here most of the money taken from a 40k job by the governmentis taken in the form of taxes on workers ( except for employer PRSI) in other countries significant amounts are taken from the employer. And since the extortionate tax I am talking about - which I clearly said was the highest marginal not overall rate - comes in at (slightly) above the average wage your tables is either worthless or deliberately disengenous.

Only if you try to deliberately misunderstand, obfuscate, or do not understand that a lower tax wedge = a higher salary, regardless of who is paying it.

Now can we please see your data that shows Ireland's marginal tax rate to be the highest in Europe? Or was that claim just "bollocks" (pardon your phrase)?

Show us that data.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 08:26PM

Terry Gilliam Beard wrote: »

It's not my table, it's the OECD, who frankly have more credibility than some anonymous guy on the internet - no offense.

The table shows tax on labour. If the employer pays less tax, they can afford to pay higher wages. So the total tax on labour is indeed totally relevant to this discussion, and ours is one of the lowest in the OECD.

Only if you try to deliberately misunderstand, obfuscate, or do not understand that a lower tax wedge = a higher salary, regardless of who is paying it.

Now can we please see your data that shows Ireland's marginal tax rate to be the highest in Europe? Or was that claim just "bollocks" (pardon your phrase)?

Show us that data.

We are all anonymous guys on the Internet. The problem is you don't understand what a marginal tax rate is. The cost to an employer is not my marginal tax rate. It may stop him employing me but once employed if he was to pay 20% on top of my gross and I were to pay 30% marginal my marginal tax would be 30%.

I said that Ireland's marginal tax rate was amongst the highest at the lowest income.

Here is an article from CNBC. Ireland comes tenth in the world, however look at the income it comes in at. It's also out of date ( the UK no longer has a 50% rate but when the 45% comes in at £150k) so we would now be 9th. The most important stat is where the marginal hits.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47290212

BTW, I don't know who you are trying to fool. Peope who earn more than 32k know their situation, especially when they get bonuses.

Terry Gilliam Beard · 22-03-2014 08:32PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

We are all anonymous guys on the Internet. The problem is you don't understand what a marginal tax rate is. The cost to an employer is not my marginal tax rate. It may stop him employing me but once employed if he was to pay 20% on top of my gross and I were to pay 30% marginal my marginal tax would be 30%.

Christ, stop with the straw men please. My point is that the tax on labour is amongst the lowest in the OECD for average workers. I have proved this with OECD data.

If you don't have the economics background (or common sense) to understand the implications this has for take-home pay, I really can't help you.

Cool Mo D · 22-03-2014 08:33PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Can you all go away and learn two things.

1) what the marginal rate of tax means.
2) what a tax is.

Given the level of discourse on this thread I wouldn't put it past a government to push USC to 65%. When we complain about earning nothing we 'll be told the tax is just 41%.

PRSI is also a tax. They don't put it in a different pot. There is no limit to it.

So what's 41 + 7 + 4?

Maybe YOU should learn what tax is, and what a marginal rate is. The highest marginal rate of income tax in Ireland is 42%. That is a fact. It is also a fact that the total tax burden on any PAYE taxpayer, including USC and PRSI will be under, and usually far under, the highest marginal rate.

Donkey Oaty · 22-03-2014 08:37PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Can you all go away and learn two things.

1) what the marginal rate of tax means.
2) what a tax is.

This is a very good question.

TV licence?

Water "charges"?

Fire Brigade call out "charge"?

Road tolls?

Compulsory "charges" for "services" that might be way out of kilter with other countries, such as stamp duty on credit cards, etc?

Edit: I raise these points, because there is so much that can be included or disregarded depending on who is doing the survey, who paid them to do it and what conclusion they would like to reach.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 08:44PM

If you didn't read the link. ( all converted to US dollars by CNBC but most of the highest taxed countries in the world are in the Euro zone so currency fluctuations don't matter. )

Ireland:

The country’s top marginal rate kicks in at about $43,900 of taxable income.

Finland:

49% at $91, 000 and above

UK

45% (from 2013) on $213,000

Japan

50% on $217,000 and above

Belgium

50% on $46,000 and above

Austria

50% on $80,000 and above

Holland.

52% on $74,500 and above

Denmark

55% on €76,000 and above

Sweden

56% on $81,000 and above

Aruba

59% on $165,000 and above

So only Belgium kicks the highest marginal in at a rate close to the Irish income which is what I am talking about. They also have municipal taxes. Don't live in Belgium.

I feel I should retract my almost statement. Ireland has the highest rate of marginal tax at the income it comes in at. Someone on 32k here who is single is paying the highest tax in the world at that wage, only surpassed by a Belgian when s/he earns about 5K more.

After that you have to earn about 60k - 200k € before the marginal gets higher than Ireland, and only in 7 countries.

Frank Lee Midere · 22-03-2014 08:49PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Maybe YOU should learn what tax is, and what a marginal rate is. The highest marginal rate of income tax in Ireland is 42%. That is a fact. It is also a fact that the total tax burden on any PAYE taxpayer, including USC and PRSI will be under, and usually far under, the highest marginal rate.

The marginal tax on people earning 31.8k and above includes USC, PRSI and income tax. USC is just an income tax. PRSI is just an income tax pretending to be an insurance pot. USC doesn't even pretend that. None are optional.

What matters to people on these wages is what they get after tax. On my recent bonus which was about 3K I earned less than 1.5k. Because the government took 52% tax, charts about tax wedges notwithstanding.

Modern Irish slavery

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