The Birch or Cane for Criminals

monocled mutiner · 11-03-2014 05:53PM

LoveChanel wrote: »

The highest rate of recidivism was among those who had served a sentence for burglary and related offences (79.5%). Of these, most were re-convicted for burglary (57), public order (34) or theft (32) offences.
The overall recidivism rate of offenders within three years was 62.3%.
Two thirds of re-offences occurred within six months of release.
Males made up 92% of the total population studied and had a higher recidivism rate than females (63% as opposed to 57%).

The figures speak for themselves but there are still those who are too into being PC that they can't and won't see the real benefits of the cane and the birch in bringing down crime

COYW · 11-03-2014 05:54PM

Jail is way too easy in this country. The most difficult aspect is choosing which PS3 game to play next. I would be in favour of the stocks for lesser crimes. If the cane turns one criminal onto the right path then it is a worthy addition. Very cost effective too, as others have noted.

LoveChanel · 11-03-2014 05:58PM

COYW wrote: »

Jail is way too easy in this country. The most difficult aspect is choosing which PS3 game to play next. I would be favour of the stocks for lesser crimes. If the cane turns one criminal onto the right path then it is a worthy addition. Very cost effective too, as others have noted.

What about a Russian style jail? They don't beat people persay and it's no picnic. The convicts are treated like convicts and are made to work every day for like 14 hours like a chain gang, only they do get paid a few pence.

My name is URL · 11-03-2014 05:59PM

monocled mutiner wrote: »

The figures speak for themselves but there are still those who are too into being PC that they can't and won't see the real benefits of the cane and the birch in bringing down crime

You've yet to provide proof that corporal punishment does reduce crime. And don't link to some stats from Singapore, because there are vastly greater influences and reasons for their generally low crime rates.

You're claiming that introducing one thing will cause the other to decline.. so where is the evidence for it?

Wicklowrider · 11-03-2014 06:01PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. Corporal punishment is humiliating and needlessly cruel to the offender. We're not living in the stone age.

Humiliating?

I can tell you from experience what is humiliating.
Out for a walk with your family and meeting two burglars who attempted to rob our home a few days before. Not a bother on them. So well known they were that when I started to describe them to the Gardai ( who were excellent btw) the Gardai were able to name them. When my son got home he knew exactly who I was talking about and was able to call around to their home. 2 years ago these guys had a viable explosive device left at their front door. They were caught by a woman in her home a few days after they attempted to rob mine. She gave a statement to Gardai. There was a knock on her door and when she answered it they were standing there and poured petrol over her. They told her they'd burn her if she gave evidence. I do not know if caning would work, but if they make another attempt to rob my home, caning will be the least of their worries.

COYW · 11-03-2014 06:02PM

LoveChanel wrote: »

What about a Russian style jail? They don't beat people persay and it's no picnic. The convicts are treated like convicts and are made to work every day for like 14 hours like a chain gang, only they do get paid a few pence.

Good idea too. The revenue generated from their labour can be used to fund the jails.

Iwasfrozen · 11-03-2014 06:04PM

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Humiliating?

I can tell you from experience what is humiliating.
Out for a walk with your family and meeting two burglars who attempted to rob our home a few days before. Not a bother on them. So well known they were that when I started to describe them to the Gardai ( who were excellent btw) the Gardai were able to name them. When my son got home he knew exactly who I was talking about and was able to call around to their home. 2 years ago these guys had a viable explosive device left at their front door. They were caught by a woman in her home a few days after they attempted to rob mine. She gave a statement to Gardai. There was a knock on her door and when she answered it they were standing there and poured petrol over her. They told her they'd burn her if she gave evidence. I do not know if caning would work, but if they make another attempt to rob my home, caning will be the least of their worries.

People like that are a product of their enviroment, caning will do nothing but breed resentment.

mikom · 11-03-2014 06:06PM

So we have had Singapore, Saudi Arabia, and Russia held up as models to follow.
I'll say no more.

My name is URL · 11-03-2014 06:07PM

COYW wrote: »

Good idea too. The revenue generated from their labour can be used to fund the jails.

Sure, and it would be totally worth the sanctions and fines we'd receive from the EU too :rolleyes:

Ah but sure let's not allow minor details like that to get in the way of our masturbatory fantasies of revenge and punishment.

monocled mutiner · 11-03-2014 06:09PM

My name is URL wrote: »

You've yet to provide proof that corporal punishment does reduce crime. And don't link to some stats from Singapore, because there are vastly greater influences and reasons for their generally low crime rates.

You're claiming that introducing one thing will cause the other to decline.. so where is the evidence for it?

If it's studies you want

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=151804

It is of course a study focusing on judicial punishment in Singapore but I can source others for you. Why can't I use Singapore as an example? You talk about Singapore having greater influences and reasons for their low crime rate but don't state what these are

COYW · 11-03-2014 06:10PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Sure, and it would be totally worth the sanctions and fines we'd receive from the EU too :rolleyes:

Ah but sure let's not allow minor details like that to get in the way of our masturbatory fantasies of revenge and punishment.

This is After Hours, the land of fantasy.

LoveChanel · 11-03-2014 06:13PM

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Humiliating?

I can tell you from experience what is humiliating.
Out for a walk with your family and meeting two burglars who attempted to rob our home a few days before. Not a bother on them. So well known they were that when I started to describe them to the Gardai ( who were excellent btw) the Gardai were able to name them. When my son got home he knew exactly who I was talking about and was able to call around to their home. 2 years ago these guys had a viable explosive device left at their front door. They were caught by a woman in her home a few days after they attempted to rob mine. She gave a statement to Gardai. There was a knock on her door and when she answered it they were standing there and poured petrol over her. They told her they'd burn her if she gave evidence. I do not know if caning would work, but if they make another attempt to rob my home, caning will be the least of their worries.

That was a horrible experiance for you and your family and it's not right for criminals to get away with it. Thats why we need harsher punishments.

On a seperate note the UAE is the 5 safest place in the world to live with Japan being the safest.

Wicklowrider · 11-03-2014 06:18PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People like that are a product of their enviroment, caning will do nothing but breed resentment.

Product of their environment? Do you know them? If not, how can you state this? I and my sons are products of the identical environment.
How do you propose to deal with these kind of thugs? Bearing in mind they have been identified, through courts and jail and are still a threat to law abiding people?

mikom · 11-03-2014 06:18PM

LoveChanel wrote: »

On a seperate note the UAE is the 5 safest place in the world to live

With their internet censor chances are you would not be allowed to post your brain dumps on a forum such as after hours.
How's that for safety.........

biko · 11-03-2014 06:19PM

LoveChanel wrote: »

The suadi arabs have it right. Cut off the thiefs wrighting hand on a fridays in front of the whole town. I'm all for punishment.

You'll be happy to hear that Brunei also now are embracing this form of punishment.
http://thediplomat.com/2013/10/brunei-becomes-first-east-asian-state-to-adopt-sharia-law/

Iwasfrozen · 11-03-2014 06:20PM

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Product of their environment? Do you know them? If not, how can you state this? I and my sons are products of the identical environment.
How do you propose to deal with these kind of thugs? Bearing in mind they have been identified, through courts and jail and are still a threat to law abiding people?

If you and your sons are from the same environment then you've managed to rise above it but you can't expect everyone to be able to do the same. Having said that it doesn't excuse what they did and they should be punished for their actions but corporal punishment is not the way.

LoveChanel · 11-03-2014 06:28PM

Every country has good points and bad points. Theres not one perfect justice system anywhere in the world. However we can't use excuses to brush over the fact that prison in Ireland is a holiday. If someone violates my home, my sanctuary and trashes it taking anything of value. I want to see their hand cut off I don't care how painful it is or how wrong it is. I'm sure they will value their remaining hand too much to ever try it again.

My name is URL · 11-03-2014 06:34PM

monocled mutiner wrote: »

If it's studies you want

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=151804

It is of course a study focusing on judicial punishment in Singapore but I can source others for you. Why can't I use Singapore as an example? You talk about Singapore having greater influences and reasons for their low crime rate but don't state what these are

high level of trust between the public and police, tough sentencing / detainment laws, steady economic growth and development, very low poverty levels, universal education and healthcare... all of these things combined help to reduce crime rates.

That 'study' you linked to isn't a study at all. It's an individuals viewpoint based on a survey, and what's more it's a survey conducted in the US. (A country survey of the responses of human rights organizations)

While the author does not necessarily condone the use of corporal punishment, including the act of caning, he contends that high crime rates in the United States and this country's track record on offender rehabilitation do not give the U.S. Government the right to criticize Singapore's criminal justice system

Nemeses · 11-03-2014 06:35PM

We could just improve our jail cells instead.
For example, concrete floor, 1 bed with a cloth and a pot for personal use...

Thats it, No outside world - complete isolation.

The other side of the argument is, Crime pays.. Certainly does with a free bed and luxuries at your side.

LoveChanel · 11-03-2014 06:37PM

Nemeses wrote: »

We could just improve our jail cells instead.
For example, concrete floor, 1 bed with a cloth and a pot for personal use...

Thats it, No outside world - complete isolation.

The other side of the argument is, Crime pays.. Certainly does with a free bed and luxuries at your side.

That and "slave labour" now thats a prison. Thats justice.

goose2005 · 11-03-2014 06:40PM

LoveChanel wrote: »

Every country has good points and bad points. Theres not one perfect justice system anywhere in the world. However we can't use excuses to brush over the fact that prison in Ireland is a holiday. If someone violates my home, my sanctuary and trashes it taking anything of value. I want to see their hand cut off I don't care how painful it is or how wrong it is. I'm sure they will value their remaining hand too much to ever try it again.

I don't know what sort of holidays you go on. Do they involve ****ting in a bag, daily stabbings, gangs, overcrowding, 22/23/24 hour lockups?

goose2005 · 11-03-2014 06:40PM

LoveChanel wrote: »

What about a Russian style jail? They don't beat people persay and it's no picnic. The convicts are treated like convicts and are made to work every day for like 14 hours like a chain gang, only they do get paid a few pence.

Wow, that must be why there is no crime in Russia.

goose2005 · 11-03-2014 06:42PM

COYW wrote: »

Good idea too. The revenue generated from their labour can be used to fund the jails.

We already have a vast oversupply of labour, any prison labour is usually just a make-work scheme.

Dai John · 11-03-2014 06:42PM

The Saudis' cut off the right hand after the third conviction for stealing. They have a low regard for life and the cutting off of the right hand under Sharia law has other reasons. On meeting they shake hands ( right hand only, to offer the left is an insult). Also when they eat it is the right hand only so without a right hand they cannot mix and are cast out from society. If it were done here we would have too many claiming disability. Flogging, hanging etc. would have a beneficial effect on prison overcrowding, but it will not happen anytime soon thanks to the pink and fluffy brigade.

wexie · 11-03-2014 06:42PM

Can we not just export the most frequent and violent offenders?

I'm sure there are some private US corporations that would come collect them at Dublin airport for free.

Problem solved

wexie · 11-03-2014 06:43PM

goose2005 wrote: »

I don't know what sort of holidays you go on. Do they involve ****ting in a bag, daily stabbings, gangs, overcrowding, 22/23/24 hour lockups?

http://www.butlins.com/

<shudders>

anncoates · 11-03-2014 06:45PM

It might spark a wave of petty crime by masochists that want their arses whipped.

La_Gordy · 11-03-2014 06:49PM

I lived in Singapore and it is one of the worst places I have ever had the misfortune of spending an extended amount of time in. Crime is low, true. But are there any countries that use corporal punishment such as caning that do so without being part of a thoroughly repressive regime? I can't think of any examples.

Amy teehee · 11-03-2014 06:51PM

well it's hard for me to say since I'm well into canings and all, but surely even a normal person would MUCH rather a caning (even a public one) than 5 years? Seems like a massive step down in terms of severity, tbh

LoveChanel · 11-03-2014 06:51PM

goose2005 wrote: »

Wow, that must be why there is no crime in Russia.

The majority of Russia's crimes are alcohol related. As I also said earlier no country has a perfect justice system.

Quote: goose2005
I don't know what sort of holidays you go on. Do they involve ****ting in a bag, daily stabbings, gangs, overcrowding, 22/23/24 hour lockups?

I holiday the majority of the time in the south of France. Come on though they have televisions. I know some people think just because they don't have sky digital in mount joy that they must be slumming it......

The Birch or Cane for Criminals

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