The Birch or Cane for Criminals

monocled mutiner

This thread went to sleep on the Emergency Services forum so it might do a bit better here.
Who would be in favour of the birch or the cane administered to those convicted of crimes such as vandalism, theft, burglary? It seems to work well as a deterrent in many other cultures so why not here? A lot of convicts may even prefer it to a lengthy prison term and it would be a lot more cost effective and save the tax payer a fortune.

tigger123

Naaaaaay.

Penny Tration

No, because I don't believe in using violence against other people.

Chickenhead Bread

monocled mutiner wrote: »

It seems to work well as a deterrent in many other cultures

Such as?

jester77

Are wooden spoons made from birch??

monocled mutiner

Chickenhead Bread wrote: »

Such as?

I have heard it is used a lot in Singapore with success

sillyoulfool

monocled mutiner wrote: »

I have heard it is used a lot in Singapore with success

If its that successful why is needed to be used a lot?
Surely the sign of it being a deterrent would be if was seldom needed.

RGDATA!

monocled mutiner wrote: »

It seems to work well as a deterrent in many other cultures so why not here? A lot of convicts may even prefer it to a lengthy prison term and it would be a lot more cost effective and save the tax payer a fortune.

hmm. So on the one hand convicts might prefer it, but it's still more of a deterrant than custodial sentence? What was the evidence you saw for it working as a deterrent in many other cultures?

suicide_circus

so all I have to do to get a stern caning is some petty vandalism? great news. currently forking out 200 bucks an hour.

Muise...

I'd favour the stocks and a leather belt.

MadsL

Muise... wrote: »

I'd favour the stocks and a leather belt.

If your partner agrees, well, you are off to the races.

dd972

You're giving away your Hard Drive secrets OP ! :pac:

Muise...

MadsL wrote: »

If your partner agrees, well, you are off to the races.

Pah!

He's my Master, you eejit!

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

so all I have to do to get a stern caning is some petty vandalism? great news. currently forking out 200 bucks an hour.

you're being robbed. Ill bate the lard out of ye for a ton

Iwasfrozen

monocled mutiner wrote: »

This thread went to sleep on the Emergency Services forum so it might do a bit better here.
Who would be in favour of the birch or the cane administered to those convicted of crimes such as vandalism, theft, burglary? It seems to work well as a deterrent in many other cultures so why not here? A lot of convicts may even prefer it to a lengthy prison term and it would be a lot more cost effective and save the tax payer a fortune.

No. Corporal punishment is humiliating and needlessly cruel to the offender. We're not living in the stone age.

LoveChanel

The suadi arabs have it right. Cut off the thiefs wrighting hand on a fridays in front of the whole town. I'm all for punishment. Saves a lot of tax payers money. Think of the millions wasted each year housing and feeding irish convicts. Plus its so "cosy" in jail now. Crimnals are only laughing, lets see them laugh when their hand is gone....

131spanner

monocled mutiner wrote: »

A lot of convicts may even prefer it to a lengthy prison term and it would be a lot more cost effective and save the tax payer a fortune.

The result being a criminal walking around who just got a hiding from the state which results in him resenting the state / law enforcement even more. And the wheel goes round.

suicide_circus

Jake1 wrote: »

you're being robbed. Ill bate the lard out of ye for a ton

and pull the wire off me afterwards?

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

and pull the wire off me afterwards?

that will be extra....

suicide_circus

LoveChanel wrote: »

The suadi arabs have it right. Cut off the thiefs wrighting hand on a fridays in front of the whole town. I'm all for punishment. Saves a lot of tax payers money. Think of the millions wasted each year housing and feeding irish convicts. Plus its so "cosy" in jail now. Crimnals are only laughing, lets see them laugh when their hand is gone....

ah yes the Saudis, you've really got to hand it to them

Muise...

LoveChanel wrote: »

The suadi arabs have it right. Cut off the thiefs wrighting hand on a fridays in front of the whole town. I'm all for punishment. Saves a lot of tax payers money. Think of the millions wasted each year housing and feeding irish convicts. Plus its so "cosy" in jail now. Crimnals are only laughing, lets see them laugh when their hand is gone....

Oh my twitching red pen!! Are you trying to get me a grammar nazi ban?

monocled mutiner

sillyoulfool wrote: »

If its that successful why is needed to be used a lot?
Surely the sign of it being a deterrent would be if was seldom needed.

Within any society there will always be those that won't respond to any punishment so I can only imagine it's used a lot on those crims.

LoveChanel

monocled mutiner wrote: »

Within any society there will always be those that won't respond to any punishment so I can only imagine it's used a lot on those crims.

If they don't respond, then they should be hanged..

J_E

LoveChanel wrote: »

The suadi arabs have it right. Cut off the thiefs wrighting hand on a fridays in front of the whole town. I'm all for punishment. Saves a lot of tax payers money. Think of the millions wasted each year housing and feeding irish convicts. Plus its so "cosy" in jail now. Crimnals are only laughing, lets see them laugh when their hand is gone....

Aww yeah, keep going, really getting off to this post.

LoveChanel wrote: »

If they don't respond, then they should be hanged..

Hnnng yes! This is some quality material LoveChanel, thanks.

LoveChanel

Cydoniac wrote: »

Aww yeah, keep going, really getting off to this post.



Hnnng yes! This is some quality material LoveChanel, thanks.

What do you suggest? Prehaps art therapy while in prison? The whole nicey nice thing does not work. It's time for drastic action.

Ruu

Liquorice whip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5teVixi8XLU

The King of Moo

"Gee shucks, that caning was sure humiliating. Well, no more crime for me, I've sure learned my lesson!"

The thought process of the average petty criminal, apparently.

The King of Moo

LoveChanel wrote: »

It's time for drastic action.

Why? We don't have a lot of crime.

Iwasfrozen

LoveChanel wrote: »

What do you suggest? Prehaps art therapy while in prison? The whole nicey nice thing does not work. It's time for drastic action.

If art therapy can be shown to encourage rehabilitation then yes. Why not?

My name is URL

There's been a drastic increase in the amount of nutjobs posting here recently.

LoveChanel

The King of Moo wrote: »

Why? We don't have a lot of crime.

The highest rate of recidivism was among those who had served a sentence for burglary and related offences (79.5%). Of these, most were re-convicted for burglary (57), public order (34) or theft (32) offences.
The overall recidivism rate of offenders within three years was 62.3%.
Two thirds of re-offences occurred within six months of release.
Males made up 92% of the total population studied and had a higher recidivism rate than females (63% as opposed to 57%).

monocled mutiner

LoveChanel wrote: »

The highest rate of recidivism was among those who had served a sentence for burglary and related offences (79.5%). Of these, most were re-convicted for burglary (57), public order (34) or theft (32) offences.
The overall recidivism rate of offenders within three years was 62.3%.
Two thirds of re-offences occurred within six months of release.
Males made up 92% of the total population studied and had a higher recidivism rate than females (63% as opposed to 57%).

The figures speak for themselves but there are still those who are too into being PC that they can't and won't see the real benefits of the cane and the birch in bringing down crime

COYW

Jail is way too easy in this country. The most difficult aspect is choosing which PS3 game to play next. I would be in favour of the stocks for lesser crimes. If the cane turns one criminal onto the right path then it is a worthy addition. Very cost effective too, as others have noted.

LoveChanel

COYW wrote: »

Jail is way too easy in this country. The most difficult aspect is choosing which PS3 game to play next. I would be favour of the stocks for lesser crimes. If the cane turns one criminal onto the right path then it is a worthy addition. Very cost effective too, as others have noted.

What about a Russian style jail? They don't beat people persay and it's no picnic. The convicts are treated like convicts and are made to work every day for like 14 hours like a chain gang, only they do get paid a few pence.

My name is URL

monocled mutiner wrote: »

The figures speak for themselves but there are still those who are too into being PC that they can't and won't see the real benefits of the cane and the birch in bringing down crime

You've yet to provide proof that corporal punishment does reduce crime. And don't link to some stats from Singapore, because there are vastly greater influences and reasons for their generally low crime rates.

You're claiming that introducing one thing will cause the other to decline.. so where is the evidence for it?

Wicklowrider

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. Corporal punishment is humiliating and needlessly cruel to the offender. We're not living in the stone age.

Humiliating?

I can tell you from experience what is humiliating.
Out for a walk with your family and meeting two burglars who attempted to rob our home a few days before. Not a bother on them. So well known they were that when I started to describe them to the Gardai ( who were excellent btw) the Gardai were able to name them. When my son got home he knew exactly who I was talking about and was able to call around to their home. 2 years ago these guys had a viable explosive device left at their front door. They were caught by a woman in her home a few days after they attempted to rob mine. She gave a statement to Gardai. There was a knock on her door and when she answered it they were standing there and poured petrol over her. They told her they'd burn her if she gave evidence. I do not know if caning would work, but if they make another attempt to rob my home, caning will be the least of their worries.

COYW

LoveChanel wrote: »

What about a Russian style jail? They don't beat people persay and it's no picnic. The convicts are treated like convicts and are made to work every day for like 14 hours like a chain gang, only they do get paid a few pence.

Good idea too. The revenue generated from their labour can be used to fund the jails.

Iwasfrozen

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Humiliating?

I can tell you from experience what is humiliating.
Out for a walk with your family and meeting two burglars who attempted to rob our home a few days before. Not a bother on them. So well known they were that when I started to describe them to the Gardai ( who were excellent btw) the Gardai were able to name them. When my son got home he knew exactly who I was talking about and was able to call around to their home. 2 years ago these guys had a viable explosive device left at their front door. They were caught by a woman in her home a few days after they attempted to rob mine. She gave a statement to Gardai. There was a knock on her door and when she answered it they were standing there and poured petrol over her. They told her they'd burn her if she gave evidence. I do not know if caning would work, but if they make another attempt to rob my home, caning will be the least of their worries.

People like that are a product of their enviroment, caning will do nothing but breed resentment.

mikom

So we have had Singapore, Saudi Arabia, and Russia held up as models to follow.
I'll say no more.

My name is URL

COYW wrote: »

Good idea too. The revenue generated from their labour can be used to fund the jails.

Sure, and it would be totally worth the sanctions and fines we'd receive from the EU too :rolleyes:

Ah but sure let's not allow minor details like that to get in the way of our masturbatory fantasies of revenge and punishment.

monocled mutiner

My name is URL wrote: »

You've yet to provide proof that corporal punishment does reduce crime. And don't link to some stats from Singapore, because there are vastly greater influences and reasons for their generally low crime rates.

You're claiming that introducing one thing will cause the other to decline.. so where is the evidence for it?

If it's studies you want

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=151804

It is of course a study focusing on judicial punishment in Singapore but I can source others for you. Why can't I use Singapore as an example? You talk about Singapore having greater influences and reasons for their low crime rate but don't state what these are

COYW

My name is URL wrote: »

Sure, and it would be totally worth the sanctions and fines we'd receive from the EU too :rolleyes:

Ah but sure let's not allow minor details like that to get in the way of our masturbatory fantasies of revenge and punishment.

This is After Hours, the land of fantasy.

LoveChanel

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Humiliating?

I can tell you from experience what is humiliating.
Out for a walk with your family and meeting two burglars who attempted to rob our home a few days before. Not a bother on them. So well known they were that when I started to describe them to the Gardai ( who were excellent btw) the Gardai were able to name them. When my son got home he knew exactly who I was talking about and was able to call around to their home. 2 years ago these guys had a viable explosive device left at their front door. They were caught by a woman in her home a few days after they attempted to rob mine. She gave a statement to Gardai. There was a knock on her door and when she answered it they were standing there and poured petrol over her. They told her they'd burn her if she gave evidence. I do not know if caning would work, but if they make another attempt to rob my home, caning will be the least of their worries.

That was a horrible experiance for you and your family and it's not right for criminals to get away with it. Thats why we need harsher punishments.

On a seperate note the UAE is the 5 safest place in the world to live with Japan being the safest.

Wicklowrider

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People like that are a product of their enviroment, caning will do nothing but breed resentment.

Product of their environment? Do you know them? If not, how can you state this? I and my sons are products of the identical environment.
How do you propose to deal with these kind of thugs? Bearing in mind they have been identified, through courts and jail and are still a threat to law abiding people?

mikom

LoveChanel wrote: »

On a seperate note the UAE is the 5 safest place in the world to live

With their internet censor chances are you would not be allowed to post your brain dumps on a forum such as after hours.
How's that for safety.........

biko

LoveChanel wrote: »

The suadi arabs have it right. Cut off the thiefs wrighting hand on a fridays in front of the whole town. I'm all for punishment.

You'll be happy to hear that Brunei also now are embracing this form of punishment.
http://thediplomat.com/2013/10/brunei-becomes-first-east-asian-state-to-adopt-sharia-law/

Iwasfrozen

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Product of their environment? Do you know them? If not, how can you state this? I and my sons are products of the identical environment.
How do you propose to deal with these kind of thugs? Bearing in mind they have been identified, through courts and jail and are still a threat to law abiding people?

If you and your sons are from the same environment then you've managed to rise above it but you can't expect everyone to be able to do the same. Having said that it doesn't excuse what they did and they should be punished for their actions but corporal punishment is not the way.

LoveChanel

Every country has good points and bad points. Theres not one perfect justice system anywhere in the world. However we can't use excuses to brush over the fact that prison in Ireland is a holiday. If someone violates my home, my sanctuary and trashes it taking anything of value. I want to see their hand cut off I don't care how painful it is or how wrong it is. I'm sure they will value their remaining hand too much to ever try it again.

My name is URL

monocled mutiner wrote: »

If it's studies you want

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=151804

It is of course a study focusing on judicial punishment in Singapore but I can source others for you. Why can't I use Singapore as an example? You talk about Singapore having greater influences and reasons for their low crime rate but don't state what these are

high level of trust between the public and police, tough sentencing / detainment laws, steady economic growth and development, very low poverty levels, universal education and healthcare... all of these things combined help to reduce crime rates.

That 'study' you linked to isn't a study at all. It's an individuals viewpoint based on a survey, and what's more it's a survey conducted in the US. (A country survey of the responses of human rights organizations)

While the author does not necessarily condone the use of corporal punishment, including the act of caning, he contends that high crime rates in the United States and this country's track record on offender rehabilitation do not give the U.S. Government the right to criticize Singapore's criminal justice system

Nemeses

We could just improve our jail cells instead.
For example, concrete floor, 1 bed with a cloth and a pot for personal use...


Thats it, No outside world - complete isolation.


The other side of the argument is, Crime pays.. Certainly does with a free bed and luxuries at your side.

LoveChanel

Nemeses wrote: »

We could just improve our jail cells instead.
For example, concrete floor, 1 bed with a cloth and a pot for personal use...


Thats it, No outside world - complete isolation.


The other side of the argument is, Crime pays.. Certainly does with a free bed and luxuries at your side.

That and "slave labour" now thats a prison. Thats justice.