Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

Cessna_Pilot · 11-03-2014 01:16PM

mickdw wrote: »

Is it possible that it was accidently due to equipment fault flown into the sea while the pilots believed they were at cruise altitude?
From what I've learned on this thread, secondary radar relies on data from the aircraft to display altitude etc. If for some reason the the aircraft had a malfunction and was giving faulty altitude readings to the pilots, autopilot and feeding same to radar systems, the plane could have been flown straight into the sea.

Flown into the sea from 35000 feet? No, the crew would have noticed something amiss!

Tigerandahalf · 11-03-2014 01:17PM

Given the possibility that we will all be able to use Facebook and the like very soon on planes it would be a real tragedy if this flight crew were unable to make contact because of a complete electrical failure.

sopretty · 11-03-2014 01:18PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

If there was a total electrical failure the flight crew had no means to communicate. They could still fly the plane using basic navigation aids powered by a descended wind turbine on the plane.
A simple satellite phone onboard the plane would have enabled communication, no?

Are you suggesting that they had them? Or that they should have them on planes in future? I'm also failing to see the relevance of your post in this discussion!

Jack1985 · 11-03-2014 01:18PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

If there was a total electrical failure the flight crew had no means to communicate. They could still fly the plane using basic navigation aids powered by a descended wind turbine on the plane.
A simple satellite phone onboard the plane would have enabled communication, no?

That's the RAT - Ram Air Turbine. All they get from that is basic navaids like above, but there are no history of anybody trying to make contact - Hindsight is a great thing but we can only deal with what we know.

weisses · 11-03-2014 01:19PM

For anyone interested in helping with the search

DigitalGlobe, which operates commercial imaging satellites, has made available high-resolution images from the weekend of the area where evidence suggests plane with 239 people on board may have crashed into the water.
A screenshot from the Tomnod website showing users what certain aircraft wreckage may look like.

A screenshot from the Tomnod website showing users what certain aircraft wreckage may look like.

It is asking volunteers to log onto its Tomnod website and comb through images in the hope of locating something of interest.
Advertisement

So far, 3,200 square kilometres of imagery has been made available for volunteers to search online. More images will be released over the next 24 hours.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014

That's my afternoon sorted

Would be something if the plane was found by a "Boardsie"

Good luck

SpaceTime · 11-03-2014 01:19PM

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

The triple seven has an outstanding safety record, so one of the safest airliners in the skies today.

Basically all modern commercial airliners from both Boeing and Airbus have outstanding safety records.

Some of the statistical comparisons of makes and models are utter nonsense too. Firstly the number of accidents is so tiny it's nearly statistically insignificant and it ignores things like the types of routes the aircraft operate on etc.

I've even seen raw numbers statistics which just compared the total number of accidents for each aircraft type without even considering that for smaller aircraft like the Boeing 737 family and Airbus A320, there are just vastly more of them in operation as they run most short haul traffic on the planet!

They also tend to ignore the age of an aircraft family. Some of the aircraft series may have been around for decades, some are only around in recent years. So, you can't really bunch them all together either as technology has changed and the number of cycles the older representatives of that model would have gone through is much higher.

In general what tends to cause accidents are : 1) human error (pilot or maintenance) 2) sabotage or terrorism and 3) random bad luck.

Just be careful of what you read on line, you get tabloid journalists who don't really know what they're talking about posting stats and you also get Boeing or Airbus fanatics who are nearly like Apple and Android fanbois and will try to prove the airline manufacturer they're fixated with is better than their competitor by misquoting and distorting stats.

Anytime there's any kind of an incident involving Airbus aircraft for example (and they have a phenomenal safety record too) you'll get people posting nonsense like "If it's not Boeing, I'm not going".

A lot of it comes down to nationalism by various US and French posters.

The A340 and 777 seemed to have tied for never having been involved in any fatal incidents. That could be largely just extremely good luck and the fact that they're long-haul aircraft.

Basically, your own bathroom is thousands of times more dangerous than flying in a commercial aircraft (from an airline in the developed world anyway).

dubscottie · 11-03-2014 01:22PM

Is it possable the cabin didnt pressurize like that Helos flight in Greece?

Might explain the lack of contact and strange flight path..

SpaceTime · 11-03-2014 01:23PM

dubscottie wrote: »

Is it possable the cabin didnt pressurize like that Helos flight in Greece?

Might explain the lack of contact and strange flight path..

Possible, but it wouldn't explain the lack of radio contact.

reforger · 11-03-2014 01:24PM

Long time lurker here. Interesting discussion of a terrible event. Found this old Esquire article on the Swissair 111 crash and its impact on the families. Long but worth a read.
http://www.esquire.com/features/long-fall-one-eleven-heavy-0700

Jack1985 · 11-03-2014 01:24PM

Is it possable the cabin didnt pressurize like that Helos flight in Greece?

Might explain the lack of contact and strange flight path..

Not really, certainly the lack of contact, but the flight would have maintained its course and simply circled over Beijing Airport until it ran out of fuel. Since the Helios accident there has been increased training in relation to Hypoxia.

Possible, but it wouldn't explain the lack of radio contact.

It would the Helios flight never spoke to ATC about the take-off config alarm, but to their maintenance personnel and then entered deep Hypoxia whilst doing that.

irishmover · 11-03-2014 01:24PM

weisses wrote: »

For anyone interested in helping with the search

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014

That's my afternoon sorted

Would be something if the plane was found by a "Boardsie"

Good luck

3200 square kilometers? Well I'll shut up so if that's the case but when I was on it all I could look through was an approximate 30x20km tile.

Tigerandahalf · 11-03-2014 01:25PM

Jack1985 wrote: »

That's the RAT - Ram Air Turbine. All they get from that is basic navaids like above, but there are no history of anybody trying to make contact - Hindsight is a great thing but we can only deal with what we know.

I saw the above on one of the air investigation programmes. I can't remember what caused the total electrical failure. But they were able to navigate the plane using this small source of backup power. I think they have only some basic readings available to them.

SpaceTime · 11-03-2014 01:26PM

Jack1985 wrote: »

Not really, certainly the lack of contact, but the flight would have maintained its course and simply circled over Beijing Airport until it ran out of fuel. Since the Helios accident there has been increased training in relation to Hypoxia.

It would the Helios flight never spoke to ATC about the take-off config alarm, but to their maintenance personnel and then entered deep Hypoxia whilst doing that.

More likely it would have returned to the nearest airport it could have landed at and circled at low altitude until it was safe to land.

But there would have been radio contact.

Shady Tady · 11-03-2014 01:27PM

It will probably turn up on Airplane repo on discovery!

Jack1985 · 11-03-2014 01:28PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

More likely it would have returned to the nearest airport it could have landed at and circled at low altitude until it was safe to land.

But there would have been radio contact.

You have no idea of that I'm afraid - Nor do either of us even if there was a depressurization. But it would explain lack of radio contact, it happened on Aer Lingus flight in 2000 - Luckily the crew dealt with it even though there judgement had started to slip considerably and they landed back into Cork when the F/O went on Oxygen subsequently the Captain did also.

Dude111 · 11-03-2014 01:28PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote:

If the phones are ringing then they must be on land.

I do have to wonder if all this is BS meant as a way to take ppl's minds OFF OF WHATS GOING ON IN THE UKRAINE!!?? -- Planes dont just dissapear!!!!! (W/o hitting a porthole)

Why are peoples mobile phones RINGING?? (If your phone is OFF,it does not ring more than once if @ all -- it goes right to voicemail)

SOMETHING IS VERY ODD!!!!!

homerjay2005 · 11-03-2014 01:28PM

dubscottie wrote: »

Is it possable the cabin didnt pressurize like that Helos flight in Greece?

Might explain the lack of contact and strange flight path..

mentioned this earlier, but surely as they had about 6 or 7 hours fuel, this would have been noticed and tracked by somebody?

the helios plane crashed with two fighter jets watching it.

galwayjohn89 · 11-03-2014 01:30PM

Dude111 wrote: »

I do have to wonder if all this is BS meant as a way to take ppl's minds OFF OF WHATS GOING ON IN THE UKRAINE!!?? -- Planes dont just dissapear!!!!! (W/o hitting a porthole)

Why are peoples mobile phones RINGING?? (If your phone is OFF,it does not ring more than once if @ all -- it goes right to voicemail)

SOMETHING IS VERY ODD!!!!!

Phones can ring even if they are turned off. It is known as a comfort ring. It is especially common in Asia due to the way they set up their network.

Tigerandahalf · 11-03-2014 01:36PM

If the primary radar readings prove true the plane was not on auto-pilot and was being navigated. The authorities have stated that the primary radar picked up the flight at Kota Bharu which is on the north east of Malaysia and that the plane then made a turn and went to a lower altitude.
This would also suggest that a fire hadn't broken out as the plane had travelled a considerable distance from its initial last sighting on the secondary radar.

A Primal Nut · 11-03-2014 01:37PM

Dude111 wrote: »

I do have to wonder if all this is BS meant as a way to take ppl's minds OFF OF WHATS GOING ON IN THE UKRAINE!!?? -- Planes dont just dissapear!!!!! (W/o hitting a porthole)

Why are peoples mobile phones RINGING?? (If your phone is OFF,it does not ring more than once if @ all -- it goes right to voicemail)

In ireland yes. In other countries its common for them to ring as the call is being setup and doesn't indicate the other phone is turned off. Ive noticed it myself when abroad.

The passengers phone are still ringing now even though the phones should be out of charge which proves the point.

SpaceTime · 11-03-2014 01:38PM

Vuzuggu wrote: »

Phones can ring even if they are turned off. It is known as a comfort ring. It is especially common in Asia due to the way they set up their network.

Sadly, I think it's relatives clutching at straws. It's an awful situation to be in and it's highly unlikely that the passengers survived by the looks of things.

The phone ringing thing is almost 100% definitely not an actual ringing tone from what I've seen on YouTube anyway there hearing about 1 second of ringing tone and then it cuts off. The investigators have apparently checked it out and are satisfied that the phones aren't in coverage.

At this stage, it would be unlikely that most phones would even have a charge (certainly not smart phones anyway).

It would also have to be within absolute maximum (in ideal conditions) 80km from the nearest mast to even have a hope in hell of picking up a signal and even at that, it wouldn't be able to make a call. So, basically just off the coast of somewhere populated.

That seems highly unlikely that if it were in a GSM 2G, 3G or 4G coverage area that someone wouldn't have seen/heard the plane go down.

Jack1985 · 11-03-2014 01:38PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

If the primary radar readings prove true the plane was not on auto-pilot and was being navigated.

With all due respect you have absolutely no information to back that theorem up. The transponder could still have been manually switched off even without contemplating electrical failure, therefore it could have been flown using auto-pilot.

Tigerandahalf · 11-03-2014 01:40PM

From the Mirror........

"More now on the earlier info that Malaysian military say they tracked the missing plane in the Malacca Strait after it lost contact with air traffic control.

Earlier today Malaysian media reported that the plane was spotted flying at lower altitude some distance away from its intended flight path.

"The last time the flight was detected close to Pulau Perak, in the Malacca Strait, at 2.40 a.m. by the control tower before the signal was lost," air force chief Rodzali Daud told the Berita Harian newspaper.

If correct that would suggest the plane flew for an hour and 10 minutes AFTER the plane vanished from control screens.

......"

sopretty · 11-03-2014 01:40PM

It's absolutely horrific for the relatives to have no information still and to feel that information is being kept from them.

Tigerandahalf · 11-03-2014 01:41PM

Jack1985 wrote: »

With all due respect you have absolutely no information to back that theorem up. The transponder could still have been manually switched off even without contemplating electrical failure, therefore it could have been flown using auto-pilot.

If the transponder was turned off ACARS data would still have been sent.

Jack1985 · 11-03-2014 01:42PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

If the transponder was turned off ACARS data would still have been sent.

And there STILL could have been no known mechanical issues.

For the umteenth time, ACARS DATA SENDS MECHANICAL INFORMATION.

SpaceTime · 11-03-2014 01:43PM

sopretty wrote: »

It's absolutely horrific for the relatives to have no information still and to feel that information is being kept from them.

I suspect the investigators are probably caught between a rock and hard place on this one.
The most likely reason for any lack of information is that they're probably still ruling out terrorism. So, there will be certain facts that they won't release without first consulting intelligence agencies, Interpol, etc

For example, they may need to keep certain aspects confidential if someone is questioning someone somewhere else and they need to be able to check facts vs what the person says.

They could do a better job of keeping people informed though. The whole thing seems a bit haphazard compared to what I've seen before in the US and in France where they even had psychological support on hand immediately.

I suspect, if/when (and hopefully they do) they completely rule out foul play and terrorism they will be a lot more forthcoming with information.

Tigerandahalf · 11-03-2014 01:43PM

Jack1985 wrote: »

And there STILL could have been no known mechanical issues.

For the umteenth time, ACARS DATA SENDS MECHANICAL INFORMATION.

Jack you are not listening. The authorities stated that no ACARS data was sent.

Growler!!! · 11-03-2014 01:45PM

Jack1985 wrote: »

With all due respect you have absolutely no information to back that theorem up. The transponder could still have been manually switched off even without contemplating electrical failure, therefore it could have been flown using auto-pilot.

I think tiger has you block or something as you have explained a number of thing which he hasn't grasped. As you explained earlier, an airplane can still be flown by the autopilot but the pilot is telling the computer where to go ie HDG mode.

Jack1985 · 11-03-2014 01:46PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Jack you are not listening. The authorities stated that no ACARS data was sent.

Christ all mighty, the ACARS data stopped at the time of 01:22 local the same time it went off radar - Thus even in the speculation it had total electrical failure if could still have been flying, when the RAT is deployed I believe AP functionality still exists however ACARS transmissions would still cease. So what exactly are you not getting, and why the fascination with ACARS? The authorities when informed MAS had ACARS would have checked them and they have no reason to believe any areas of concern from them.

Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

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