Irish Rail bans e-cigarettes

Gongoozler · 11-03-2014 11:37am #1

Ive seen a page on the journal asking whether or not e-cigarettes should be banned in the workplace, according to the poll results (currently 51%) the majority are against this.

Irish Rail have banned them from their train and DART services because of people complaining of the smell.

What do you think AH? My first reaction is to say well that's ridiculous, they barely smell of anything, but there's literally thousands of flavours you can get for these things that aren't cigarette smoke.

Plus there's an awful lot of things on public transport that are more offensive, smell wise.

Phone / boards touch won't let me insert the url, sorry.

Dravokivich · 11-03-2014 11:40am

Its banned where I work. And im for it to be honest. It should be something one does during their break as its a leisurely activity. But when they started getting popular here, people just used'em all the time.

dr.bollocko · 11-03-2014 11:43am

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-e-cigarettes-1355583-Mar2014/

That heroin ban they have on the DART is working out well for them too.

gg2 · 11-03-2014 11:43am

The smell from the toilets on the Dublin - Limerick train. Oh Jesus it would make your eyes burn. Turnip poo, thats how I'd describe it.

Dunno what all the fuss is about regarding ecigs being used in public enclosed places, if someone would like to inform me please do! Does the smoke from them actually smell?

dr.bollocko · 11-03-2014 11:44am

gg2 wrote: »

The smell from the toilets on the Dublin - Limerick train. Oh Jesus it would make your eyes burn. Turnip poo, thats how I'd describe it.

Dunno what all the fuss is about regarding ecigs being used in public enclosed places, if someone would like to inform me please do! Does the smoke from them actually smell?

It ain't smoke, it's vapour.

And no. There is barely any perceptible smell from them at all.

Call Me Jimmy · 11-03-2014 11:45am

So are they technically banning breathing on trains?

Davarus Walrus · 11-03-2014 11:46am

Considering the price they charge for a ticket I'd expect to be able to snort coke off a hookers ass while listening to death metal, and get away with it.

Some health and safety drone from Irish Rail is probably looking to make a name for himself by coming up with this idea. A real clipboard merchant.

Sky King · 11-03-2014 11:47am

It ain't smoke, it's water vapour.

Negative. It's propylene glycol.

cruizer101 · 11-03-2014 11:49am

My problem with how this is being reported is that all articles that I read on it state: There is no evidence that the devices cause any harm to anybody standing close to them

But there is also no evidence that they don't cause harm.

For years there was no evidence that smoking normal cigarettes caused any harm, if anything they were advertised as being good for your health.

Also just because they may no contain all the tar and other potentially harmful parts of cigarette smoke doesn't meant I want to be inhaling your nicotene from them.

I have also read that certain liquids contain various other components that are carcinogenic.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions or decisions yet but there definitely does need to be some research into these and possibly legislation regarding them also

Toto Wolfcastle · 11-03-2014 11:50am

If they're going to start banning things that smell could they not start with stinky sandwiches? Or people who seem to have a casual approach to personal hygiene?

dr.bollocko · 11-03-2014 11:50am

Sky King wrote: »

Negative. It's propylene glycol.

A mixture- will edit post to use the politically acceptable term of "vapour" but perhaps will spell it vapor in a passive aggressive manner.

Call Me Jimmy · 11-03-2014 11:50am

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Considering the price they charge for a ticket I'd expect to be able to snort coke off a hookers ass while listening to death metal, and get away with it.

Some health and safety drone from Irish Rail is probably looking to make a name for himself by coming up with this idea. A real clipboard merchant.

That's exactly the sort of post ye want to read in the morning over a cuppa tea

whiskeyman · 11-03-2014 12:01pm

My mates workplace has banned them, so all the people who use them (people trying to give up smoking) are forced to go out to the smoking hut with all the smokers!
Talk about temptation!
I bet the cig companies are loving hearing about the bans for the e-cigs come into place.

Gongoozler · 11-03-2014 12:02pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Also just because they may no contain all the tar and other potentially harmful parts of cigarette smoke doesn't meant I want to be inhaling your nicotene from them.

Some of them contain nicotine, some don't. Can you tell the difference?

Banjo String · 11-03-2014 12:03pm

They smell?

So do curry chips, smoked herrings, rank smelly people.

What will they ban Next?

Penny Tration · 11-03-2014 12:06pm

I'm an ecig vendor, and loads of my customers are giving out over this.

I think it's very silly to ban them. However, I wouldn't have smoked a cigarette on trains, so not using my electronic one a train doesn't bother me, personally.

However, if it's purely down to the smell, maybe they should stop people drinking or eating, and enforce a pesonal hygiene check.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2014 12:08pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

I have also read that certain liquids contain various other components that are carcinogenic.

Such as?

Be careful of the scaremongering from the pharmaceutical companies.

Robbo · 11-03-2014 12:12pm

How will we know who the futuristic robot assassins are without the blue glow of their science cigarette?

Samba · 11-03-2014 12:14pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

It ain't smoke, it's vapour.

And no. There is barely any perceptible smell from them at all.

Not entirely true, some juice are very pungent, you could have the same flavour from two different companies, one might appear practically odourless, yet the other could be really pungent, it depends on the level of flavouring and what flavours are used.

If you walked in the room where I'm sitting now, you'd probably think I was baking some caramel cake.

Let's be honest though, none of them smell as bad as someone eating a packet of cheese and onion crisps, shudder.

Gongoozler · 11-03-2014 12:14pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Such as?

Be careful of the scaremongering from the pharmaceutical companies.

Shouldn't be too hard to find out what is actually in them... I'll search when I've the time.

Chips Lovell · 11-03-2014 12:18pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

But there is also no evidence that they don't cause harm.

If we formulated policy on lack of negative proof, a whole lotta things would be banned from trains.

Tzardine · 11-03-2014 12:20pm

Banjo String wrote: »

They smell?

So do curry chips, smoked herrings, rank smelly people.

What will they ban Next?

curry chips, smoked herrings, rank smelly people hopefully

Robbo · 11-03-2014 12:20pm

whiskeyman wrote: »

My mates workplace has banned them, so all the people who use them (people trying to give up smoking) are forced to go out to the smoking hut with all the smokers!
Talk about temptation!
I bet the cig companies are loving hearing about the bans for the e-cigs come into place.

The ones that have any sense have already invested in various glowing vapour kazoo technologies.

Johnny_Fontane · 11-03-2014 12:21pm

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Considering the price they charge for a ticket I'd expect to be able to snort coke off a hookers ass while listening to death metal, and get away with it.

personally think irish rail tickets are dirt cheap. you should check out the prices of trains in the uk, central europe, japan etc....

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2014 12:21pm

Samba wrote: »

If you walked in the room where I'm sitting now, you'd probably think I was baking some caramel cake .

I'm curious, what are you using?

cruizer101 · 11-03-2014 12:21pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Such as?
Be careful of the scaremongering from the pharmaceutical companies.

Well thats it I'm not sure and I don't believe everything I read, there is a lot of money at stake here so there will most likely be promotional material from both sides of the argument which needs to be verified. As I said I do think there needs to be research and possibly legislation, I'm not calling for blanket bans but surely no one can disagree with them being looked into

Gongoozler wrote:

Some of them contain nicotine, some don't. Can you tell the difference?

Nope, still doesn't mean I want to inhale whatever it is your smoking, I'm not sure if there are any yet but if not I'm sure someone is working on getting other drugs, such as certain components of particular hemp plants, into them.
Do these stay in the vapour and can they be inhaled by me? I don't know but this needs to be looked into.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2014 12:25pm

Gongoozler wrote: »

Shouldn't be too hard to find out what is actually in them... I'll search when I've the time.

Propelyne Glycol, vegetable glycerine, nicotine and flavouring.

PG is the base most liquid drugs come in. VG can be bought off the shelf and people put it on baby's gums when they're teething.

Nicotine is as harmful as caffeine.

The flavours are usually food grade ones.

Sky King · 11-03-2014 12:27pm

green_screen wrote: »

However, if it's purely down to the smell, maybe they should stop people drinking or eating, and enforce a pesonal hygiene check.

QFT I'd sooner breathe second hand vapour than someone's stinking Supermacs all the way down from Heuston

Uriel. · 11-03-2014 12:27pm

From a management point of view, I'd imagine these things are tough to call.

Most e-cigs I've come across, have little or no smells, as someone else said it's like steam from a kettle or something.
But I away in November and sat close to someone with an e-cig and it was very potent. What happens when you get 20 or 30 people vaping away with all kinds of scents in enclosed space. Might not be entirely comfortable.

Also, Irish rail might feel it will be difficult to police "real" smokers if, say you have a situation where there's a number of people vaping away with devices that look like a cigarette from a distance and a cloud of smoke/vape. Could cause some awkward and difficult situations arising for Irish Rail staff

Agreed on the often foul smelling food. Is food and drink technically not allowed either? It isn't on Dublin Bus as far as I know, though it is not enforced usually.

I Heart Internet · 11-03-2014 12:28pm

I'm for the ban - puffing on those things is akin t scratching your balls in public - not for general consumption. Take it outside.

Samba · 11-03-2014 12:29pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

My problem with how this is being reported is that all articles that I read on it state: There is no evidence that the devices cause any harm to anybody standing close to them

But there is also no evidence that they don't cause harm.

I have to ask, are you Kathleen O'Meara!?

The evidence, which you say doesn't exist -

http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.ie/2014/01/new-study-of-passive-vaping-shows.html

cruizer101 wrote: »

For years there was no evidence that smoking normal cigarettes caused any harm, if anything they were advertised as being good for your health.

It's a little more difficult to hoodwink the entire international scientific community nowadays.

cruizer101 wrote: »

Also just because they may no contain all the tar and other potentially harmful parts of cigarette smoke doesn't meant I want to be inhaling your nicotene from them.

Nicotine absorption rates for the user are significantly lower than when smoking, what do you think they are for passive vapour?

cruizer101 wrote: »

I have also read that certain liquids contain various other components that are carcinogenic.

You've made a lot of claims that you read x, y and z, care to actually back them up with something, other than your ill-informed opinion?

cruizer101 wrote: »

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions or decisions yet but there definitely does need to be some research into these and possibly legislation regarding them also

That sounds just like something Kathleen O'Meara would sya. While I agree more studies need to be done and regulation is required, not what's currently on the table from the EU.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm curious, what are you using?

Highbrow caramel cake, it's yummy.

Tiddlypeeps · 11-03-2014 12:29pm

It's a bit silly to ban them because of smell alone but at the same time they are perfectly entitled to do so, just as some public transport choose to ban eating food or listening to loud music etc.

A lot of people are very concerned about second hand smoke so when they see the vapour from e-cigs they associate it with the same thing, so Irish rail are probably getting lots of complaints from people convinced they are going to get lung cancer from their daily commute. It's likely just easier to ban them than to try and convince those people that it's not very likely.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2014 12:31pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Well thats it I'm not sure and I don't believe everything I read, there is a lot of money at stake here so there will most likely be promotional material from both sides of the argument which needs to be verified. As I said I do think there needs to be research and possibly legislation, I'm not calling for blanket bans but surely no one can disagree with them being looked into .

Absolutely, which is why the world vaping organisation has been set up and why it is trying to be consumer led rather than industry controlled.

Ask yourself though, who is going to lose out most from e-cigs.

Big pharma companies make billions from nicorettes, nicotinel etc and they have a much lower success rate than e-cigs.

Then, of course there's the tens of billions spent on drugs each year treating lung cancer.

3rdDegree · 11-03-2014 12:33pm

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

personally think irish rail tickets are dirt cheap. you should check out the prices of trains in the uk, central europe, japan etc....

You sure know how to ruin a good joke

Thoie · 11-03-2014 12:37pm

Yay! I presume they're banning hoors soaked in cheap perfume too? They're not? Boo.

P_1 · 11-03-2014 12:49pm

Uriel. wrote: »

From a management point of view, I'd imagine these things are tough to call.

Most e-cigs I've come across, have little or no smells, as someone else said it's like steam from a kettle or something.
But I away in November and sat close to someone with an e-cig and it was very potent. What happens when you get 20 or 30 people vaping away with all kinds of scents in enclosed space. Might not be entirely comfortable.

Also, Irish rail might feel it will be difficult to police "real" smokers if, say you have a situation where there's a number of people vaping away with devices that look like a cigarette from a distance and a cloud of smoke/vape. Could cause some awkward and difficult situations arising for Irish Rail staff

Agreed on the often foul smelling food. Is food and drink technically not allowed either? It isn't on Dublin Bus as far as I know, though it is not enforced usually.

I'd counter that by asking what happens when you get 20-30 people having sprayed themselves with all sorts of perfume/aftershave/eau de toilette scents in an enclosed space?

I'll grant you a point about cigalikes alright but quite a lot of vapers tend to use devices that resemble an insulin pen rather then a cigarette.

Out of interest, I wonder if this ban will include products like Niquotin Quick Mist?

Vito Corleone · 11-03-2014 1:03pm

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Considering the price they charge for a ticket I'd expect to be able to snort coke off a hookers ass while listening to death metal, and get away with it.

Price of tickets is quite cheap compared to other countries actually.

cruizer101 · 11-03-2014 1:04pm

Samba wrote: »

I have to ask, are you Kathleen O'Meara!?
The evidence, which you say doesn't exist -
http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.ie/2014/01/new-study-of-passive-vaping-shows.html

TBH I don't know who Kathleen O Meara is.

Thanks for the link, had a read and that is what I am looking for, actual evidence.

On the bit you quoted me my problem is more with how it is reported, if there is evidence, as you have now shown me, why isn't that reported, sloppy journalism annoys me.

Samba wrote: »

It's a little more difficult to hoodwink the entire international scientific community nowadays.

I'm not saying its not, my point is any new product, especially one being inhaled needs proper research and regulation.

Samba wrote: »

Nicotine absorption rates for the user are significantly lower than when smoking, what do you think they are for passive vapour?

Fair enough, I'll admit I havn't looked into this in depth, if this is the case I am fine with it.

Samba wrote: »

You've made a lot of claims that you read x, y and z, care to actually back them up with something, other than your ill-informed opinion?

I originally stated, 'I read somewhere...' maybe I should have qualified it better by stating that this was a random comment on a website and I did not believe it but I do think research needs to be done to show this is not the case, you have already pointed me in that direction and so that is fair enough.

Samba wrote: »

That sounds just like something Kathleen O'Meara would sya. While I agree more studies need to be done and regulation is required, not what's currently on the table from the EU.

Again I'm not sure who Kathleen O Meara is or what her agenda is. You seem to think I am against e-cigs and I regret if I have come across that way. I am not against them, however I would like to see appropriate regulations regarding them, and I think anyone who is using them would be mad not to agree, if there isn't appropriate regulation who is to say what manufacturers may put in them in order to reduce costs or for other reasons.

Two of my brothers have moved from real to e-cigs and I think it is great. Far healthier, no stink of smoke from them, cheaper and all the other advantages. But it doesn't stop me thinking that there should be research and regulation into the e vapor liquid and it constituents.

pundy · 11-03-2014 1:07pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

My problem with how this is being reported is that all articles that I read on it state: There is no evidence that the devices cause any harm to anybody standing close to them

But there is also no evidence that they don't cause harm.

For years there was no evidence that smoking normal cigarettes caused any harm, if anything they were advertised as being good for your health.

Also just because they may no contain all the tar and other potentially harmful parts of cigarette smoke doesn't meant I want to be inhaling your nicotene from them.

I have also read that certain liquids contain various other components that are carcinogenic.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions or decisions yet but there definitely does need to be some research into these and possibly legislation regarding them also

this attitude is the exact thing that is wrong with this country.

Maximus Alexander · 11-03-2014 1:08pm

Banjo String wrote: »

They smell?

So do curry chips, smoked herrings, rank smelly people.

What will they ban Next?

I'm afraid floors are being banned soon.

RollieFingers · 11-03-2014 1:09pm

Do people really crave a smoke that much that they'd have one on the Dart or a train? I'm a smoker myself and the thought of lighting up on a carriage isn't very appealing!

P_1 · 11-03-2014 1:12pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

My problem with how this is being reported is that all articles that I read on it state: There is no evidence that the devices cause any harm to anybody standing close to them

But there is also no evidence that they don't cause harm.

For years there was no evidence that smoking normal cigarettes caused any harm, if anything they were advertised as being good for your health.

Also just because they may no contain all the tar and other potentially harmful parts of cigarette smoke doesn't meant I want to be inhaling your nicotene from them.

I have also read that certain liquids contain various other components that are carcinogenic.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions or decisions yet but there definitely does need to be some research into these and possibly legislation regarding them also

The vast majority of ingredients in e-juice have already passed food quality tests and chances are you'd eat them as part of your daily diet.

Most passive smoking tends to be caused by the smoker holding the cigarette between puffs, with e-cigs you don't get that problem.

Nicotine is a mild stimulant, roughly comparable to caffeine. The vast majority of health issues caused by smoking are down to the tar and other chemicals released by inhaling burning leaves. Also incidentally, if you're fond of eating potatoes and tomatoes, you are consuming nicotine.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2014 1:18pm

P_1 wrote: »

The vast majority of ingredients in e-juice have already passed food quality tests and chances are you'd eat them as part of your daily diet..

I bought some vanilla food flavouring in Lidl and the ingredients were vanilla flavour, propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine.

It was pretty much ready to vape!

Bandana boy · 11-03-2014 1:20pm

pundy · 11-03-2014 1:21pm

E-Cigarettes are NOT a danger to anybody. in any way.

P_1 · 11-03-2014 1:22pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I bought some vanilla food flavouring in Lidl and the ingredients were vanilla flavour, propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine.

It was pretty much ready to vape!

Might be missing something mind (unless 0 nic does it for you of course)

cometogether · 11-03-2014 1:25pm

Why ban these but allow fast food?

pundy · 11-03-2014 1:26pm

cometogether wrote: »

Why ban these but allow fast food?

because the people who come up with these rules are fat glutens who can't help but chomp into that disgusting onion sambo on the train or open a packet of crisps and sputter and munch in front of you.

ArmaniJeanss · 11-03-2014 1:27pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Two of my brothers have moved from real to e-cigs and I think it is great. Far healthier, no stink of smoke from them, cheaper and all the other advantages. But it doesn't stop me thinking that there should be research and regulation into the e vapor liquid and it constituents.

The fear of e-cig users is that this research and regulation will ultimately lead to a slippery slope of increased taxes, excise duties, limitation of imports, expensive retail licences, medicinal branding etc all leading to massive upward pressure on prices.
Whilst your points are generally valid I think the fears of the e-cig community are genuine as well.

e.g., personally I'm an ex-smoker who uses niquitin products and the way these are legislated and sold in Ireland (as opposed to even the UK) is a fairly sick example of how Irish consumers gets absolutely robbed blind when the pharmaceutical industry gets involved.

Samba · 11-03-2014 1:34pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

TBH I don't know who Kathleen O Meara is.

Thanks for the link, had a read and that is what I am looking for, actual evidence.

On the bit you quoted me my problem is more with how it is reported, if there is evidence, as you have now shown me, why isn't that reported, sloppy journalism annoys me.

She's the spokesperson for the Irish Cancer Society, one week she was on T.V claiming they could be just as harmful as cigarettes, only a few weeks later she was on prime time debating e-cigs, it's amazing how she changed her tune on prime time to - "undoubtedly better than cigarettes".

Excuse my snipey post but I'm just so so tired of all the sloppy statements and articles coming from people who have a lot of sway over public perception. It would appear most are happy to pick up on whatever story/facts other rags are publishing. There are quite a number of studies out there already and more and more are being conducted.

Right now there's a huge study being conducted by Dr. Farsalinos on eliquids, I totally agree with you though, we do need more data, the more we have the better.

cruizer101 wrote: »

I am not against them, however I would like to see appropriate regulations regarding them, and I think anyone who is using them would be mad not to agree, if there isn't appropriate regulation who is to say what manufacturers may put in them in order to reduce costs or for other reasons.

We have regulation that was just recently voted through, unfortunately it falls short on everything you would expect from regulation that addresses health concerns.

I've quoted this from the e-cig forum as it sums up my point...

tommy2bad wrote: »

However it dose raise a good point, why didn't the ecig regs in the tpd address the real concerns like which flavours are worrisome and what grade of propellant is safe? Why no requirement for a mention of allergic reactions on labels?
Oh yeah, because they didn't care about health, they care about restrictions to protect existing markets.

None of this was addressed with their so called 'regulation' the problem with e-cigs is you have a bunch of people trying to regulate a market and product that they don't fully understand.

They've introduced regulation, but it looks like they could get sued back to the stone age with it, once one State adopts it.

You have the EU banging on about ecigs normalising smoking, yet they seem hell bent on banning all devices except those that look like cigarettes!?

BizzyC · 11-03-2014 1:46pm

why do smokers always harp on about fatty foods as some sort of protection.

while a guy tucking in to curry chips on a train is pretty inconsiderate, apart from the smell, it makes no other impact to me or my journey.

2nd hand smoke impacts the health of people around them

the vapour from e-cigs has not been tested.
until someone can state categorically that there are no adverse affects from 2nd hand exposure to the vapour, I'll be pro any ban that treats them the same as cigarettes.

Irish Rail bans e-cigarettes

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