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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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Comments

  • #3932
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    There are many people within the category you refer to, including young children and people of limited cognition.

    God is a God of justice and mercy ... and if somebody has never heard of Jesus Christ, I believe that they will, in justice, be offered the opportunity to be Saved at the point of death.
    Like I have said nobody will be forced to be Saved ... and everyone who wants to, will be Saved ... and you can't get any fairer (or freer) than that.

    I asked you before and you never gave me a decent answer so i'll try again.

    My father was a staunch church going god fearing catholic who went to church twice a day.

    My mother (like me) was an atheist who didn't believe in god, jesus or anything religious.

    Both have passed on and going by your rules/interpretation of things my Father would now be in heaven and my mother would be in hell. How is my Father (who loved my mother more than life itself) happy in "heaven" knowing that my mother is suffering an eternity of damnation and torture?


  • #3933
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    There are many people within the category you refer to, including young children and people of limited cognition.

    God is a God of justice and mercy ... and if somebody has never heard of Jesus Christ, I believe that they will, in justice, be offered the opportunity to be Saved at the point of death.
    Like I have said nobody will be forced to be Saved ... and everyone who wants to, will be Saved ... and you can't get any fairer (or freer) than that.

    So let's say someone from a tribe in the deepest Amazonian forest dies, they have a choice "at the point of death" to be saved? A spirit approaches them and tells them they must worship them for eternity or else? That's a whole new take on stranger danger!


  • #3934
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    There are many people within the category you refer to, including young children and people of limited cognition.

    God is a God of justice and mercy ... and if somebody has never heard of Jesus Christ, I believe that they will, in justice, be offered the opportunity to be Saved at the point of death.
    Like I have said nobody will be forced to be Saved ... and everyone who wants to, will be Saved ... and you can't get any fairer (or freer) than that.

    So do believe that people who do not believe in Christ are doomed ????????????????


  • #3935
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    God is a God of justice and mercy ... and .


    I can quote you plenty of verses from the Bible to counter that statement and show that God is quite opposite to being merciful.....cognative dissonance once again in play here,,,,


  • #3936
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    So do believe that people who do not believe in Christ are doomed ????????????????

    I think he is saying that at the point of death they are given a choice, worship me or burn for eternity. Doesn't matter that they don't know who the guy is it's a choice of servitude and slavery or an eternity of fire and damnation. Amazes me how anyone cannot get the whole loving god concept :rolleyes:


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  • #3937
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    I can quote you plenty of verses from the Bible to counter that statement and show that God is quite opposite to being merciful.....cognative dissonance once again in play here,,,,

    Oh i hope you are not on about old testament stuff because that doesn't count anymore, only the nice parts count now :D


  • #3938
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Oh i hope you are not on about old testament stuff because that doesn't count anymore, only the nice parts count now :D


    Ahahahahahahaaaaa....yeah exactly.....classic.....:D:D:D


  • #3939
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I think he is saying that at the point of death they are given a choice, worship me or burn for eternity. Doesn't matter that they don't know who the guy is it's a choice of servitude and slavery or an eternity of fire and damnation. Amazes me how anyone cannot get the whole loving god concept :rolleyes:


    I have asked him the same question over and over ,bumper, and still wait for an actual answer.....but I will keep on asking.....word games dont scare me.....;)


  • #3940
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I asked you before and you never gave me a decent answer so i'll try again.

    My father was a staunch church going god fearing catholic who went to church twice a day.

    My mother (like me) was an atheist who didn't believe in god, jesus or anything religious.

    Both have passed on and going by your rules/interpretation of things my Father would now be in heaven and my mother would be in hell. How is my Father (who loved my mother more than life itself) happy in "heaven" knowing that my mother is suffering an eternity of damnation and torture?

    Mod: That question would be more suited to this thread. Creationism / evolution discussion here please.


  • #3941
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Mod: That question would be more suited to this thread. Creationism / evolution discussion here please.
    Thanks Benny.

    I have answered here:-
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=89381066#post89381066


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  • #3942
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Mod: That question would be more suited to this thread. Creationism / evolution discussion here please.

    Apologies mod i had the 2 threads mixed up. Hard to keep track of old JC some days :D


  • #3943
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    because you are ignoring my request of evidence of ID. You made a claim, I asked for an evidence of the claim but you require me to fill out a questionaire before providing the evidence:confused:
    People can reject any evidence provided for anything ... as the following scripture shows:-

    Luke 16:19-31
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

    27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”


  • #3944
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    People can reject any evidence provided for anything ... as the following scripture shows:-

    Luke 16:19-31
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

    27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

    I'm guessing this is a no to providing one example of ID.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3945
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    wrote:
    Originally Posted by J C
    God created everything perfectly ... but this perfection was marred at the Fall ... and thus death and competition (AKA Evolution) entered the Universe at the Fall.

    Safehands
    Where is your evidence for that statement JC?
    The near perfection of life is objectively observable ... and the disease, death and competition that provides the motive force for Evolution is also objectively observable.


  • #3946
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    The near perfection of life is objectively observable ... and the disease, death and competition that provides the motive force for Evolution is also objectively observable.

    Where is the evidence for your statement that God created everything perfectly?


  • #3947
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    <snip>

    Mod: Off-topic, atheism/existence of God thread, please.


  • #3948
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    wrote:
    Originally Posted by Mister Trebus View Post
    <snip>

    Mod: Off-topic, atheism/existence of God thread, please.
    It's on-topic as its addressing the evidence for Creation.

    Safehands wrote: »
    Where is the evidence for your statement that God created everything perfectly?
    A perfect God would Create everything perfectly ... and the observed near-perfection of all life points in the direction of a once-perfect Creation.

    Edit My apologies.


  • #3949
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    It's on-topic as its addressing the evidence for Creation.

    A perfect God would Create everything perfectly ... and the observed near-perfection of all life points in the direction of a once-perfect Creation.

    But he didn't "create everything perfectly" if Adam and Eve (created by "God") were perfect then they would have resisted temptation and not eaten the apple saving everyone all of the hassle. They were created IMPERFECTLY by your "God" (if you believe in that sort of thing) and therefore your argument is void.


  • #3950
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    It's on-topic as its addressing the evidence for Creation.

    A perfect God would Create everything perfectly ... and the observed near-perfection of all life points in the direction of a once-perfect Creation.

    No it doesn't!

    I'll help you here JC. The answer to the question is that there is no evidence that God created everything perfectly. Simple, isn't it?


  • #3951
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    But he didn't "create everything perfectly" if Adam and Eve (created by "God") were perfect then they would have resisted temptation and not eaten the apple saving everyone all of the hassle. They were created IMPERFECTLY by your "God" (if you believe in that sort of thing) and therefore your argument is void.
    Being Created perfectly and with free-will doesn't prevent anyone for rebelling against God ... Lucifer did it ... and Adam and Eve also did it using their free-will.


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  • #3952
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    Being Created perfectly and with free-will doesn't prevent anyone for rebelling against God ... Lucifer did it ... and Adam and Eve also did it using their free-will.

    Ergo they were not created perfectly!


  • #3953
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Ergo they were not created perfectly!
    Ergo they were Created perfectly and with free will, which they chose to use to rebel against their Creator.


  • #3954
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    Ergo they were Created perfectly and with free will, which they chose to use to rebel against their Creator.

    Then free will was a flaw they were created with so they were not perfect!


  • #3955
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Then free will was a flaw they were created with so they were not perfect!
    Free-will isn't a flaw ... as the alternative would be to create deterministic robots without any freedom to freely love and do good ... as well as the opposite.
    ... and I don't know about you ... but I would want to be married to a woman who freely loved me ... and not to a 'robot' who had no mind of her own ...
    ... and I am eternally grateful to God for Creating me and everybody else with the free-will to love and do good!!!


  • #3956
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Mod: Folks, I've removed some posts which were completely unrelated to the topic of this thread, namely evolution and creationism. Discussion relating to the existence of God, hell, and so forth should take place on the Atheism/Existence of God megathread.


  • #3957
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    Being Created perfectly and with free-will doesn't prevent anyone for rebelling against God ...



    Not everyone is created perfectly...that's a ridiculous statement to make


  • #3958
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Not everyone is created perfectly...that's a ridiculous statement to make

    Not just everyone! EVERYTHING!!! :eek:


  • #3959
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Not everyone is created perfectly...that's a ridiculous statement to make
    You're correct ... actually nobody is perfect ... but all of Creation was originally Created perfectly ... until Adam and Eve Fell and introduced imperfection (disease and death) into the Universe.


  • #3960
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    I see that Darwin is getting bumped off the British tenner ... in favour of Jane Austin ... making the tenner the Sterling note of choice for lovers of romantic fiction everywhere, no doubt !!!:);)

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/25/charles-darwin-gets-bumped-from-british-currency/


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  • #3961
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    You're correct ... actually nobody is perfect ... but all of Creation was originally Created perfectly ... until Adam and Eve Fell and introduced imperfection (disease and death) into the Universe.

    Again a statement steeped in the ridiculous !

    Creation was and still is a haphazard process, with new systems and stars etc still being born in the same way they always were.....
    Zero evidence of this Adam and Eve you write about....mere fairy tales nothing more


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