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The college epidemic of the last 15 years?

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    #92
    Kathnora
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Kathnora


    My gripe is that some Level 8 courses allow entry to students who may have less than 300 points in the Leaving just because these courses may not be in high demand. Those same students often find that they are just not able for Honours degree level study and drop out. A few years back Science in UCD was offered to students with less than 300 points and consequently some people were just not able for the course. There should be a minimum number of points required when it comes to Level 8 courses.


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    #93
    yawhat!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 970 ✭✭✭yawhat!


    Kathnora wrote: »
    My gripe is that some Level 8 courses allow entry to students who may have less than 300 points in the Leaving just because these courses may not be in high demand. Those same students often find that they are just not able for Honours degree level study and drop out. A few years back Science in UCD was offered to students with less than 300 points and consequently some people were just not able for the course. There should be a minimum number of points required when it comes to Level 8 courses.

    In I.T,engineering, Science courses You need higher maths or a B3 in pass which is a start.

    Most other courses should be passable.


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    #94
    MS.ing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 680 ✭✭✭MS.ing


    littleblackDRS wrote: »
    But in the 80's, you only needed an intercert to get a job. Now you need at least a Masters to get many entry level jobs. This kind of thinking really annoys me. It's not the 80's or 90's anymore. The world has moved on.

    ummm and what do you think created the madness the op is talking about :o


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    #95
    Drakares
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭Drakares


    Thomas D wrote: »
    Back to education is the biggest scam going. It was meant to be lip service for knackers that never got a shot at education in their younger days.

    This knacker is working for a European Space Agency, in a foreign lanugaue (German) and earning probably double what you earn there, kid. Fairly certain with your utterly retarded post that my IQ standing to yours is similar to that of my wages in comparison. :rolleyes:


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    #96
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Kathnora wrote: »
    My gripe is that some Level 8 courses allow entry to students who may have less than 300 points in the Leaving just because these courses may not be in high demand. Those same students often find that they are just not able for Honours degree level study and drop out. A few years back Science in UCD was offered to students with less than 300 points and consequently some people were just not able for the course. There should be a minimum number of points required when it comes to Level 8 courses.

    Points aren't everything. I agree with having a minimum grade for subjects that are very important, like maths for a lot of engineering.

    Points were not designed to show a students aptitude towards a particular field they are literally just a means of ranking students in order to allocate placement. I don't think they should ever be used as anything more than that.

    I know plenty of engineering types, including myself, that just suck at english and languages. Those type of subjects make up a huge portion of the leaving cert. It's quite possible for someone to get an A in honours maths and get C's at ordinary level for most other subjects. That would give someone about 250ish points. It's a perfectly possible scenario and the person in question clearly has an aptitude for maths yet if there was a minimum points requirement for the course then that person wouldn't get a place even if there was space in the class for them.

    There are plenty of other scenarios where people can do really well in science subjects but suck at everything else, the same for language type subjects. Why punish them unnecessarily when there is space available on their preferred course?


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    #97
    Stained Class
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭Stained Class


    I'm reading the posts here & I worry for the people who don't have the ability for college or Uni.

    I did the Leaving in 1985 & I can tell anybody here that there were no jobs to be got then.

    The '80s was not a kind of utopia where there were jobs for all or anything.

    My generation emigrated.

    Personally, I'm geared to skilled manual work. I can do unskilled manual work too, if the money's good.

    Always been employed, but I was lucky in some ways.

    It's all very well to talk about computers & call centres & the 'knowlage econany, & all that, but where's the place for young fellas who can actually do real work?

    Fix things, make things work, change a lightbulb?

    If we trained the young people now to have skills in this direction, would Germany make Ireland a cheaper manufacturing base for their operations & create jobs here?

    No excuses. Germany seems to have a sucessful manufacturing industry.

    Why can't we benefit from that?


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    #98
    weirdspider
    Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭weirdspider


    Hello_MrFox wrote: »
    College is not hard. You must pick a degree subject that you have an interest in otherwise it becomes a chore. The amount of time you get of is insane.

    In my course (Pharmacy) we had 32 hour weeks at one point and I'm in first year. Very, very little time between assignments, lab reports and studying for upcoming exams.


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    #99
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Drakares wrote: »
    This knacker is working for a European Space Agency, in a foreign lanugaue (German) and earning probably double what you earn there, kid. Fairly certain with your utterly retarded post that my IQ standing to yours is similar to that of my wages in comparison. :rolleyes:


    Far be it for me to interrupt your pissing contest, but it doesn't make you sound very intelligent when you use the word "retarded" in reference to another person's IQ. In fact it makes you sound quite the opposite.


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    #100
    Drakares
    Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭Drakares


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Far be it for me to interrupt your pissing contest, but it doesn't make you sound very intelligent when you use the word "retarded" in reference to another person's IQ. In fact it makes you sound quite the opposite.

    Trying to necro your own post.. That's cool. I could come up with something smart to say but the 3rd post in the original hits the nail in the head.


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    #101
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    I really wish I hadn't been pushed into university by my school. I wasn't ready for it and could have really used a year to explore the continent and gain a different perspective. I was pressured and ended up not enjoying my course at all, dropping out. Now I'm stuck with large fees to save up for a new course.

    I would also tell a prospective student to seriously consider a gap year.


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    #102
    Kathnora
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Kathnora


    Tiddlypeeps wrote: »
    Points aren't everything. I agree with having a minimum grade for subjects that are very important, like maths for a lot of engineering.

    Points were not designed to show a students aptitude towards a particular field they are literally just a means of ranking students in order to allocate placement. I don't think they should ever be used as anything more than that.

    I know plenty of engineering types, including myself, that just suck at english and languages. Those type of subjects make up a huge portion of the leaving cert. It's quite possible for someone to get an A in honours maths and get C's at ordinary level for most other subjects. That would give someone about 250ish points. It's a perfectly possible scenario and the person in question clearly has an aptitude for maths yet if there was a minimum points requirement for the course then that person wouldn't get a place even if there was space in the class for them.

    There are plenty of other scenarios where people can do really well in science subjects but suck at everything else, the same for language type subjects. Why punish them unnecessarily when there is space available on their preferred course?

    Those scenarios you mention are of course possible. I was thinking along the lines of someone who gets about 250 points from good grades in Ordinary level subjects but then finds the standard of a Level 8 degree beyond them. I know a few people that this happened to and they ended up dropping out in 1st year....they simply weren't able for the work.


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    #103
    yawhat!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 970 ✭✭✭yawhat!


    Kathnora wrote: »
    Those scenarios you mention are of course possible. I was thinking along the lines of someone who gets about 250 points from good grades in Ordinary level subjects but then finds the standard of a Level 8 degree beyond them. I know a few people that this happened to and they ended up dropping out in 1st year....they simply weren't able for the work.

    That is nonsense!

    Most people that got into college fail because they don't put in the work or don't research the course there doing properly.

    In my course 23 started the course. In the final year there was only 3 of us left. The course was 350 points. Most people in the course had 400 points + . This was in computer science.

    If I did Arts or Business I would have dropping out of the course probably in the first year as it wouldn't have suited me


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    #104
    Kathnora
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Kathnora


    yawhat! wrote: »
    That is nonsense!

    Most people that got into college fail because they don't put in the work or don't research the course there doing properly.

    In my course 23 started the course. In the final year there was only 3 of us left. The course was 350 points. Most people in the course had 400 points + . This was in computer science.

    If I did Arts or Business I would have dropping out of the course probably in the first year as it wouldn't have suited me

    I have to disagree with you there. SOME people THINK they are academic enough for Level 8 degree courses and go for these courses because the points required for entry aren't too high. They may well be very interested in their chosen course too and work hard at it but they simply aren't able for the standard required of them. They also can't compete with other students in their course who may have 400+ points.


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    #105
    yawhat!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 970 ✭✭✭yawhat!


    Kathnora wrote: »
    I have to disagree with you there. SOME people THINK they are academic enough for Level 8 degree courses and go for these courses because the points required for entry aren't too high. They may well be very interested in their chosen course too and work hard at it but they simply aren't able for the standard required of them. They also can't compete with other students in their course who may have 400+ points.

    Leaving cert points don't show how intelligent a person is.


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    #106
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Kathnora wrote: »
    Those scenarios you mention are of course possible. I was thinking along the lines of someone who gets about 250 points from good grades in Ordinary level subjects but then finds the standard of a Level 8 degree beyond them. I know a few people that this happened to and they ended up dropping out in 1st year....they simply weren't able for the work.

    That may be the case but putting a blanket cap on points is not the solution.


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    #107
    Kathnora
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Kathnora


    yawhat! wrote: »
    Leaving cert points don't show how intelligent a person is.


    Sometimes they do...maybe not always because some students don't work to their potential or aren't interested in a subject. But, they are certainly an indicator of academic ability particularly when a student works to their potential in a subject and the best they can achieve is a pass grade.


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    #108
    Kathnora
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Kathnora


    Tiddlypeeps wrote: »
    That may be the case but putting a blanket cap on points is not the solution.

    Maybe there should be an additional appitude test required to assess a student's ability for a particular course???


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    #109
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Kathnora wrote: »
    Maybe there should be an additional appitude test required to assess a student's ability for a particular course???

    An aptitude test would work, some places do this, but it is an expensive thing to do so a lot don't. For now the best most can do is require a minimum grade in relevant subjects. For engineering require a high maths grade, Arts a high english grade etc.

    A lot of places do this tho and they still have large drop out rates. Even some courses that have a high points requirement have high drop out rates, like medicine.

    I did a software engineering degree that required a B3 or higher in ordinary level or a D or higher in higher level. Everyone who entered the course ticked this box yet the drop out rate was crazy high. Most years started with about 50 people and I think at the end of the 4 years an average of 9 people graduated, most of those dropped off in the first year.

    Myself and 2 other people in my starting class received scholarships grants because we had the highest leaving cert points in the class. I was the only 1 of the 3 who went on to graduate and I'm pretty sure I had the lowest leaving cert points of the 3 of us. Points are a bad judge of how a person will perform in any given field. I agree with using them to allocate positions when spaces are limited because there has to be some way of rating students in order to decide who should get the places, but no more than that.

    Some students can't handle the new way of learning when they get to college. In the leaving cert everything is spoon fed to students and there is a really heavy emphasis on rote learning. In third level students are expected to be independent and are expected to actually understand the subject matter. Unless the leaving cert is redesigned to reflect this it's always going to be a really bad judge of how a person will perform in third level.


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    #110
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    ForeverYoung90 wrote: »
    I am a two time college drop-out.I was your average student in school with average grades.
    .

    Third times a charm. Go on I bet you can do it. An average degree would look great on your CV.


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    #111
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,391 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I think the OP has a point, the reason it happens is that very little alternatives are available or the alternatives are badly presented to the student.

    My solation's to this are.

    More fetac courses in in technology and engineering, with fetac colleges having the same engineering labs and facilities as any I T, clear and consistent pathways and progress from the courses to a technical qualification that would be equal to an apprenticeships, qualifications like the HNC or HND in the uk, the same for things like catering ect. That would give student the choice to mix and match some might leave with an HND, with would get them a job or some might go on to academic third level. I know students can go from a fetac to third level at the moment, however a lot of students don't have the same esteem for fetac, that they do for an apprenticeships or other third level, which affects the choices they make.

    The second point is that you have to have insight in to yourself, if you are only going to college because it is a way of leaving home, meeting the opposite sex, to and drink and party, or if you did very little work and hardly ever studied in school or are very weak at maths( big connection between leaving cert maths level and the chance of dropping out ) Then maybe you need to take a year out and think about your options.


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    #112
    homemadecider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,858 ✭✭✭homemadecider


    In the sector I work in, you won't even get an interview unless you have a Masters degree.

    It's well worth going to university, plus for many people it's really enjoyable.


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    #113
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,243 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Thomas D wrote: »
    They have no chance in the employment market so why bother?

    Bullsh1t. It worked for me. Cop on.


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    #114
    thegreatgonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭thegreatgonzo


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I think the OP has a point, the reason it happens is that very little alternatives are available or the alternatives are badly presented to the student.

    My solation's to this are.

    More fetac courses in in technology and engineering, with fetac colleges having the same engineering labs and facilities as any I T, clear and consistent pathways and progress from the courses to a technical qualification that would be equal to an apprenticeships, qualifications like the HNC or HND in the uk, the same for things like catering ect. That would give student the choice to mix and match some might leave with an HND, with would get them a job or some might go on to academic third level. I know student can go from a fetac to third level at the moment, however a lot of students don't have the same esteem for fetac, that they do for an apprenticeships or other third level, which affects the choices they make.

    .

    I suppose it all comes down to having money to provide these facilities. Maybe if ITs and universities made few places available to people coming directly from school and so the route to a place in college started with a year spent doing a related Fetac course you would see fewer drop outs. But perhaps not.
    There was a high number of mature and fetac students in my year, myself included. My class started off with 44 students, I think about 37 of us graduated. Of those who didn't graduate only 3 have completely dropped out of the system, the others are either repeating the whole year or repeating the final practical exam.
    It's not a bad drop out rate but then again, those 3 that did drop out completely were also mature students.


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    #115
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,391 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    thegreatgonzo wrote: »
    I suppose it all comes down to having money to provide these facilities. Maybe if ITs and universities made few places available to people coming directly from school and so the route to a place in college started with a year spent doing a related Fetac course you would see fewer drop outs. But perhaps not.
    There was a high number of mature and fetac students in my year, myself included. My class started off with 44 students, I think about 37 of us graduated. Of those who didn't graduate only 3 have completely dropped out of the system, the others are either repeating the whole year or repeating the final practical exam.
    It's not a bad drop out rate but then again, those 3 that did drop out completely were also mature students.

    The point with my idea is that...all is not lost even if you only do and pass one year you would get some sort of qualification which you could build on in the future or use for entry for work, the way it is now is too all or noting.

    I also think there should be min requirement for all course ( not min points that's a different thing ) as in min Maths and English requirement from the leaving cert, however if you don't get them in the leaving cert you should be able to do a one year fetac course in applied Maths/English which would be the equivalent standard a sort of foundation year if you like, that would ensure everyone entering had a consistent standard.

    College is becoming expensive if you don't get a grant the registration fee is going to be 3000? soon so if you drop out and start again it is going to cost your parents 6000 euro before you even finish first year.


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    #116
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I think the OP has a point, the reason it happens is that very little alternatives are available or the alternatives are badly presented to the student.

    My solation's to this are.

    More fetac courses in in technology and engineering, with fetac colleges having the same engineering labs and facilities as any I T, clear and consistent pathways and progress from the courses to a technical qualification that would be equal to an apprenticeships, qualifications like the HNC or HND in the uk, the same for things like catering ect. That would give student the choice to mix and match some might leave with an HND, with would get them a job or some might go on to academic third level. I know student can go from a fetac to third level at the moment, however a lot of students don't have the same esteem for fetac, that they do for an apprenticeships or other third level, which affects the choices they make.

    The second point is that you have to have insight in to yourself, if you are only going to college because it is a way of leaving home, meeting the opposite sex, to and drink and party, or if you did very little work and hardly ever studied in school or are very weak at maths( big connection between leaving cert maths level and the chance of dropping out ) Then maybe you need to take a year out and think about your options.

    Surely that only matters if you're studying a related subject? I failed maths in the leaving but have a Masters degree. None of the subjects I studied required any aptitude whatsoever for maths.


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    #117
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,391 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Maria Nervous Straw wrote: »
    Surely that only matters if you're studying a related subject? I failed maths in the leaving but have a Masters degree. None of the subjects I studied required any aptitude whatsoever for maths.

    I don't know how the statistics are produced so not sure if it only applies to certain courses or if it across all third level courses, I do know there is a hierarchy of drop out rates for courses i.e some courses have a huge drop out rates and some have a very low drop out rates, be interesting to see this list, it is the sort of information career guidance teachers should be talking to student about it might help student to make better choices.


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    #118
    thegreatgonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭thegreatgonzo


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The point with my idea is that...all is not lost even if you only do and pass one year you would get some sort of qualification which you could build on in the future or use for entry for work, the way it is now is too all or noting.

    .

    Well you do get a qualification from Fetac that you can build on. I only know about Animal Care really but that course was a way into IT for many people I know.

    I don't see how you could have facilities in a Fetac college that equal facilities in an IT or a Uni without charging people the same fees though.


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    #119
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,391 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    thegreatgonzo wrote: »
    Well you do get a qualification from Fetac that you can build on. I only know about Animal Care really but that course was a way into IT for many people I know.

    I don't see how you could have facilities in a Fetac college that equal facilities in an IT or a Uni without charging people the same fees though.

    One of the things remarked on in the Finish education system which is though to be a model of how to do, is the accesses to technological, science and engineering labs in secondary school there is a video on YouTube about it some where.


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    #120
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,214 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    MadYaker wrote: »
    I know what I'm doing now, not sure what I plan on doing after graduation. I have been researching employers and most in my field only employ people with an Masters or a Doctorate, which I don't really want to do.

    Basically then your degree is worthless as it is and you shouldn't have wasted your time?

    This is the sort of information they should be drilling into young kids heads. If the industry only wants Masters students then its better to know that in advance, instead of wasting years getting a degree that isn't directly applicable. Far too many people getting a degree just to have one, the idea seems to be that it doesn't matter what your degree is as long as you have one.

    Which is sort of true except from the other side, that if the degree isn't directly applicable to the industry, then for most employers it doesn't matter a damn if you have one or not.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Who knows what's going on in a person's life that makes them drop out. I know people who dropped out due to financial reasons or other serious issues. You can't make general judgements like yours. College is extremely tough and it takes a tough person to go back.

    University isn't tough at all. If you have half a brain and a solid work ethic you will breeze through Uni.
    Wompa1 wrote: »
    I've been involved in the interviewing and hiring process in a couple of my companies. The academic qualification rarely even registers as relevant when picking candidates

    Same here, I have interviewed many different people, and I barely glance at the education part of a CV any more. Its all about direct experience.


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    #121
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Need to get me one of them sweet lightbulb changing jobs.


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