Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

fine gael ard fheis ; "lack of protests show the level of support for the government"

2

Comments

  • #32
    DrumSteve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    The problem with protesting in this country is that it always gets highjacked by the same shower of gimps.


  • #33
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    I take your point, but on the other hand often when the issue of protesting comes up on boards it's because the protestors in question have done something themselves to delegitimize said protesting. I'd say that craic yesterday did far more to alienate normal people from the idea of getting on the streets than could any amount of circle-jerking on boards...

    It's a good point you make (or at least I think it was you who made it) about it being a self-fulfilling prophecy - extremist idiots acting like extremist idiots at protests which turns off normal people from protesting thus ensuring that the extremist idiots dominate more protests. Unfortunately I think it will have to be the groups involved themselves that will first have to cop on to the fact that allowing such eejitry to go on in their demos does them and their cause no favours in terms of getting the public on side and do something about it before any sort of progress can be made...

    I mean, I certaintly wouldn't go to a protest if I thought there was a decent possibility that a group of morons would try to pick a fight with the gardai and get us all baton-charged for being in the same place - mostly because I don't want to get my face smashed in.
    Thing is, if any powerful political group wants to discourage protesting, to protect the influence they've gained, then all they need to do is just lightly encourage crackpot/violent protest groups - they only seem to need a tiny minority to dissuade most of the population.

    So there you go, that's a perfect way to manipulate the population into avoiding protesting - you even have precedent of agent provocateur's in the UK, doing exactly this (encouraging violence by anarchist protesters).
    This is precisely the tactic the police in the UK used: Agent provocateurs, helping to encourage idiots into acting violent, for justifying police violence and a crackdown on a whole group of - mostly unrelated - protesters (as well as other silly crap like kettling).


    These idiot groups are never going to go away - hell maybe they're even being deliberately provoked, because they are useful in dissuading protesting in general - so are people just going to let them destroy protests?

    People ought to be cynical about it, and wonder if their presence is deliberate - and even if it isn't, people need to recognize that the only way to remove their power to dissuade protesting, is to (paradoxically) get out there in large enough numbers to make them irrelevant.


  • #34
    Sh1tbag OToole
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭Sh1tbag OToole


    I think these days everyone gets a nice fuzzy feeling of belonging to the community when they pay their property tax. So much so that it has turned them all into FinneGwale supporters


  • #35
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    codie wrote: »
    Marching and protesting seems to be a waste of time.The old age pensioners weren't listened to and they had a few marches,
    farmers aren't listened to ,truckers aren't listened to, both have protested before.I could go on.Take the septic tank registration .Meetings were organized all over rural Ireland.A number of politicians in opposition told people to stand firm.There seemed to be a lot of opposition .Then the registration was dropped from €50 to €5 for a limited period and what happened.People rushed in to save €45 .My mother 'n law rushed in to pay hers and her sons because it meant €90 saving.How many more were like her.
    In Ballyhea Co.Cork they march on the Cork main road against austerity and also in Charleville.I know some people there find them a nuisance for holding up traffic.
    Marching doesn't seem to get you anywhere in this country as far as I can see.There are too many people still with a lot of money in Ireland.You see students in Galway there 2 weeks ago for the unofficial rag week queuing in there 100's early in the morning to get into a pub and even drinking while they waited.5 Garth Brooks concerts sold out like wildfire.
    Plenty of money left in this old country and others are just sick to death of the whole austerity thing thats why their is a percentage that don't give a sh*t.

    pensioners are listened to cos they go out and fight for what's right, 150,000 showdd up in dublin nov 2010 to try force fianna fail to call general elections and the following week they did, since then not one protest has come close to nov 2010 size, even when there's similtanious protests across the country under the one banner we haven't managed it. they problem is not with protesting, it's more down to the fact a handful of people can be ignored
    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    It was from a FB status so I won't give names, but it's from a very well-known leftie academic who's very involved with this stuff...

    The report was as follows:



    Do these sound like the actions of serious people to anyone? Do they sound like people anyone with a dose of sanity would want to be associated with?
    KOTSC wrote: »
    Thread from facebook regarding yesterdays protest at the European Peoples Party convention in dublin.

    From a point of observation looking at this thread there is deep divisions between various groups and various protesters.

    https://www.facebook.com/hsheehan/posts/10152248736496624
    KOTSC wrote: »
    I have being to a few different protests over the last few years, one question some should ask is why did some people go to protests and wouldn,t go again ?
    speaking from experience and observation, the protest to the labour party conference in april 2012, prior to marching the organisers held a 1 hour long sessions of different ula speakers giving almost the exact same political speeches about working class unity etc, there was a lot of people bored sh...... in the crowd that afternoon, then upon arriving at the venue the labour party conference was being held guess what the organisers had another line up of ula speakers except this time there was speeches about austerity in greece and other countries, some of the crowd broke away that day got through the barriers up nearer to thr venue.

    Another protest in summer 2012 against the household tax in dublin, there was a roughly a 15/20 minute march to the dail followed once again by an hour of political speeches, there were some people who travelled with me to those protests I mentioned who won,t attend any protest for a long time, if groups want people to attend protests my word of advice is cut the number of speakers and length of time they speak, an hour of speeches before even marching is bound to put people off attending future protests.
    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    I take your point, but on the other hand often when the issue of protesting comes up on boards it's because the protestors in question have done something themselves to delegitimize said protesting. I'd say that craic yesterday did far more to alienate normal people from the idea of getting on the streets than could any amount of circle-jerking on boards...

    It's a good point you make (or at least I think it was you who made it) about it being a self-fulfilling prophecy - extremist idiots acting like extremist idiots at protests which turns off normal people from protesting thus ensuring that the extremist idiots dominate more protests. Unfortunately I think it will have to be the groups involved themselves that will first have to cop on to the fact that allowing such eejitry to go on in their demos does them and their cause no favours in terms of getting the public on side and do something about it before any sort of progress can be made...

    I mean, I certaintly wouldn't go to a protest if I thought there was a decent possibility that a group of morons would try to pick a fight with the gardai and get us all baton-charged for being in the same place - mostly because I don't want to get my face smashed in.
    DrumSteve wrote: »
    The problem with protesting in this country is that it always gets highjacked by the same shower of gimps.

    a tiny group of people have frightened the irish people from protesting, more like the irish people took that excuse and fcuking well ran with it!! i am sick to my stomach of listening to all the excuses.

    i've been at these protests and if a handful take over it's because they're let take it over.

    god help us cos some day we're going to reslise that we are fighting corrupt government and nutjobs who'll want the power for themselves and by then the nutjobs will have amassed their own army that will not be reasoned with. while our heads are buried in the sand the fascists in ireland are busy spreading out and someday they'll be at protests and not even large groups of normals will stop the mass mobs.

    today even groups of 20 are stopping the whole country from protesting

    OH MY FCUKING GOD!!!!


  • #36
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    renegademaster wrote: »
    pensioners are listened to cos they go out and fight for what's right, 150,000 showdd up in dublin nov 2010 to try force fianna fail to call general elections and the following week they did, since then not one protest has come close to nov 2010 size, even when there's similtanious protests across the country under the one banner we haven't managed it. they problem is not with protesting, it's more down to the fact a handful of people can be ignored











    a tiny group of people have frightened the irish people from protesting, more like the irish people took that excuse and fcuking well ran with it!! i am sick to my stomach of listening to all the excuses.

    i've been at these protests and if a handful take over it's because they're let take it over.

    god help us cos some day we're going to reslise that we are fighting corrupt government and nutjobs who'll want the power for themselves and by then the nutjobs will have amassed their own army that will not be reasoned with. while our heads are buried in the sand the fascists in ireland are busy spreading out and someday they'll be at protests and not even large groups of normals will stop the mass mobs.

    today even groups of 20 are stopping the whole country from protesting

    OH MY FCUKING GOD!!!!

    You still haven't answered the question about who you would like to replace the Government we elected with and to what end?

    We know what you are against OP, but what are you for?


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    You still haven't answered the question about who you would like to replace the Government we elected with and to what end?

    We know what you are against OP, but what are you for?

    i don't want government replaced, i'm simply asking that the irish people excert enough pressure, so as to remind those in power, past/present and the future, who the fcuk they're working for!!

    no need to complicate a very simple process, people show they care enough to protest, government/corrupt individuals consider doing the right thing, people show they don't give a $hit or will use 15 or 20 nutters as their excuse why they won't take to the streets, government/corrupt individuals can only take one thing from the latter and that's carry on.

    that simple enough for you?


  • #38
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    renegademaster wrote: »
    i don't want government replaced, i'm simply asking that the irish people excert enough pressure, so as to remind those in power, past/present and the future, who the fcuk they're working for!!

    So to remind them that we exist? I'm sure they are aware of the existance of their electorates - politicians tend to spend quite a bit of time worrying about who is/isn't voting for them in a democracy. Sort of the point of the system...

    There's a whiff of "is there anything to be said for having another mass/protest" in what you are prescribing here...
    renegademaster wrote: »
    no need to complicate a very simple process, people show they care enough to protest, government/corrupt individuals consider doing the right thing, people show they don't give a $hit or will use 15 or 20 nutters as their excuse why they won't take to the streets, government/corrupt individuals can only take one thing from the latter and that's carry on.

    Two follow-up questions then - 1.) are you implying that every government politician is a corrupt individual? When did this happen? Is there a secret mafia-esque initiation into the world of political corruption on the night they go from private citizen to elected representitive, or where they always corrupt individuals?

    And 2.) What do you consider to be "doing the right thing"? Some would say that getting the economy solvent again is the right thing, others would say that prioritizing the social safety net over economic concerns is the right thing. It's fairly subjective...

    Do you reckon that politicians are willfully going out of their way to do "the wrong thing", for the craic or because they don't like votes?
    renegademaster wrote: »
    that simple enough for you?

    Indeed, some would say it's a little too simple...


  • #39
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    renegademaster wrote: »
    a tiny group of people have frightened the irish people from protesting, more like the irish people took that excuse and fcuking well ran with it!! i am sick to my stomach of listening to all the excuses.

    i've been at these protests and if a handful take over it's because they're let take it over.

    god help us cos some day we're going to reslise that we are fighting corrupt government and nutjobs who'll want the power for themselves and by then the nutjobs will have amassed their own army that will not be reasoned with. while our heads are buried in the sand the fascists in ireland are busy spreading out and someday they'll be at protests and not even large groups of normals will stop the mass mobs.

    today even groups of 20 are stopping the whole country from protesting

    OH MY FCUKING GOD!!!!

    Why should the Irish people have to excuse themselves from your protests? You're the opposite of persuasive, even before we read your armageddon fantasy.


  • #40
    For Forks Sake
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,485 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    KOTSC wrote: »
    Thread from facebook regarding yesterdays protest at the European Peoples Party convention in dublin.

    From a point of observation looking at this thread there is deep divisions between various groups and various protesters.

    https://www.facebook.com/hsheehan/posts/10152248736496624

    Splitters? Well, I never...


  • #41
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    If you sheeple elect me dictator I promise to sell our children to zoos for meat and to go into people's houses at night and reck up the place...

    (Insert cartoon/Bond Villian laughter.)


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    So to remind them that we exist? I'm sure they are aware of the existance of their electorates - politicians tend to spend quite a bit of time worrying about who is/isn't voting for them in a democracy. Sort of the point of the system...

    There's a whiff of "is there anything to be said for having another mass/protest" in what you are prescribing here...



    Two follow-up questions then - 1.) are you implying that every government politician is a corrupt individual? When did this happen? Is there a secret mafia-esque initiation into the world of political corruption on the night they go from private citizen to elected representitive, or where they always corrupt individuals?

    And 2.) What do you consider to be "doing the right thing"? Some would say that getting the economy solvent again is the right thing, others would say that prioritizing the social safety net over economic concerns is the right thing. It's fairly subjective...

    Do you reckon that politicians are willfully going out of their way to do "the wrong thing", for the craic or because they don't like votes?



    Indeed, some would say it's a little too simple...
    Your post has a handful of (both stated and unstated) premises, that are inaccurate:
    1: That votes actually have a defining influence on what politicians do once they get into power,
    1a: That politicians are honest enough not to lie to the electorate to get into power,
    1b: That politicians do what they claimed they would at election time, once they get into power,
    1c: That politicians 'care' what the electorate think, about their actions/inactions, rather than just their superficial outward appearance,
    2: That when it comes to 'doing the right thing', this is subjective and just a matter of opinion, rather than a lot of policies (particularly the arguments backing them) being objectively debatable.


    Do you think there is anything worth protesting about, with the way the country is being governed?

    Do you think there is no political corruption?


  • #43
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Muise... wrote: »
    Why should the Irish people have to excuse themselves from your protests? You're the opposite of persuasive, even before we read your armageddon fantasy.
    The problem is not just that people are unconvinced of the need for more and bigger protests, it's that people are largely unconvincible, regardless of the argument put forward.

    A lot of the most important arguments for protesting, are so FUD-filled, and debate on them turns to the gutter so fast, that people (in general) bore of those arguments really easily - it's not possible to convince anyone, given conditions like that.

    That's the point of spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt); muddy the debate enough, to prevent people being convinced that something is a legitimate/worthwhile issue, until they get bored of it and don't care to hear of it - it's why a lot of debate on some of the most important topics turns to shít (I think this is particularly true, of economics as a topic).


  • #44
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    The problem is not just that people are unconvinced of the need for more and bigger protests, it's that people are largely unconvincible, regardless of the argument put forward.

    A lot of the most important arguments for protesting, are so FUD-filled, and debate on them turns to the gutter so fast, that people (in general) bore of those arguments really easily - it's not possible to convince anyone, given conditions like that.

    That's the point of spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt); muddy the debate enough, to prevent people being convinced that something is a legitimate/worthwhile issue, until they get bored of it and don't care to hear of it - it's why a lot of debate on some of the most important topics turns to shít (I think this is particularly true, of economics as a topic).

    Rather than back up your claim that we need more and bigger protests, make up a thing and call us all FUD'd up - that is staggeringly unconvincing!


  • #45
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Muise... wrote: »
    Rather than back up your claim that we need more and bigger protests, make up a thing and call us all FUD'd up - that is staggeringly unconvincing!
    I didn't say people are "all FUD'd up" - that shows both that you don't even know what the term means, and second that you didn't even bother fully reading my post - other than just skimming it - as I explain it right there.

    Posters that like to act 'unconvinced' perpetually, are - at best - too damn lazy to even properly consider the content of another persons post, or - more often, though not in this case - looking to take a crap on whatever argument is put forward, no matter what it is or what there is to back it, for spreading FUD.


  • #46
    GaelMise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭GaelMise


    renegademaster wrote: »
    I've said it once, i've said it a thousand times tis a dangerous game the people of ireland are playign by continually doing nothing in the face of blatant corruption etc.

    The biggest protest since the government took office was only a few weeks ago outside Leinster house.
    Cant really say no one is protesting.


  • #47
    csallmighty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 650 ✭✭✭csallmighty


    It done Ukraine a world of good


  • #48
    GaelMise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭GaelMise


    csallmighty wrote: »
    It done Ukraine a world of good

    Well, you can't say it did'nt change anything. ;)


  • #49
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    I didn't say people are "all FUD'd up" - that shows both that you don't even know what the term means, and second that you didn't even bother fully reading my post - other than just skimming it - as I explain it right there.

    Posters that like to act 'unconvinced' perpetually, are - at best - too damn lazy to even properly consider the content of another persons post, or - more often, though not in this case - looking to take a crap on whatever argument is put forward, no matter what it is or what there is to back it, for spreading FUD.

    Case in point: you seem to be so bothered by a disagreement that you pathologise it - fear, ignorance, laziness, apathy, brainwashing...

    when really, some people just don't agree with you. Shall I expect a personal protest from you?


  • #50
    AllGunsBlazing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,730 ✭✭✭AllGunsBlazing


    No need for mass protests when you have a functioning democracy. FG's arrogance will be it's undoing come the next election. Can see it coming from a mile away.


  • #51
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Muise... wrote: »
    Case in point: you seem to be so bothered by a disagreement that you pathologise it - fear, ignorance, laziness, apathy, brainwashing...

    when really, some people just don't agree with you. Shall I expect a personal protest from you?
    You don't know what 'patholigise' means (criticisms are not pathologising, and 'FUD' has nothing to do with pathologising), and your own accusation of 'pathologising' is, ironically, exactly what you'd use to try and deflect a disagreement, it's like saying "anyone who disagrees-with/criticises me is just pathologising".

    You don't know what FUD means either - which you're displaying once again - making your criticisms inherently wrong; I don't think you actually read my post (since I explain FUD in it).


    You've misrepresented what I've said twice thus far, in a way that completely distracts from the entire point of my original post.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    You don't know what 'patholigise' means (criticisms are not pathologising, and 'FUD' has nothing to do with pathologising), and your own accusation of 'pathologising' is, ironically, exactly what you'd use to try and deflect a disagreement, it's like saying "anyone who disagrees-with/criticises me is just pathologising".

    You don't know what FUD means either - which you're displaying once again - making your criticisms inherently wrong; I don't think you actually read my post (since I explain FUD in it).


    You've misrepresented what I've said twice thus far, in a way that completely distracts from the entire point of my original post.

    oooh tiger! If only there was a protest for you to shout in.


  • #53
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    OldRio wrote: »
    At the next election we will all troop through and vote for (pick name of political party) because of their great promises of reform. They have listened to the people and have taken note. A new dawning of political realism and empathic government will lead this country into a new dawn.

    Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

    If you don't like what's on offer, form a new party with "realism and empathy" at its core - or run yourself...

    It's the beauty of living in a democracy


  • #54
    Fukuyama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Fukuyama


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD97yRlUPWs


    Recent "protest" outside the Convention Center. Check out the very nice intro graphics and the great editing job - apparently the entire evening was all one big half hearted garda baton charge. Not once did the 'protestors' get out of line.

    This is basically why I never attend protests. That and I think, broadly speaking, that FG and Lab have done a reasonable job, given the circumstances.

    I've never been oppressed, silenced or had any of my human rights taken away from me; so I've never felt the need to assault guards for no reason while they're manning a pretty standard barricade, the kind of which you'd see in any country hosting an international political convention.


  • #55
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    If you don't like what's on offer, form a new party with "realism and empathy" at its core - or run yourself...

    It's the beauty of living in a democracy
    Why did you dive back 2 pages in the thread, to reply to a post from yesterday, that (in between all your other replies since then) you could have replied to at any time?

    Why also, is there a constant undertone of condescension, against anyone who points out the lack of protests, or the problems with our countries politics - the message every time seems to be - usually in a very condescending manner:
    "Well if it's so important, stop discussing it, go out and do something!"

    Except to get that far, people need to be able to discuss it without being shut-down by condescending mud-slinging bollocks - so what have people got against pointing out these problems, and discussing them?


    Every time these discussions stray from the 'disparage the protesters' circlejerk, to get to a more nuanced discussion of why and how the lack of protests is a problem, there seems to always be an effort to pull it back to the 'disparage the protesters' circlejerk.

    Why deliberately obstruct discussion?


  • #56
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Dean0088 wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD97yRlUPWs


    Recent "protest" outside the Convention Center. Check out the very nice intro graphics and the great editing job - apparently the entire evening was all one big half hearted garda baton charge. Not once did the 'protestors' get out of line.

    This is basically why I never attend protests. That and I think, broadly speaking, that FG and Lab have done a reasonable job, given the circumstances.

    I've never been oppressed, silenced or had any of my human rights taken away from me; so I've never felt the need to assault guards for no reason while they're manning a pretty standard barricade, the kind of which you'd see in any country hosting an international political convention.

    Fcuking idiots couldn't even light a flag on fire properly...

    The Gardai acted properly from what I saw on this video, IMO.


  • #57
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,784 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Why did you dive back 2 pages in the thread, to reply to a post from yesterday, that (in between all your other replies since then) you could have replied to at any time?

    Why also, is there a constant undertone of condescension, against anyone who points out the lack of protests, or the problems with our countries politics - the message every time seems to be - usually in a very condescending manner:
    "Well if it's so important, stop discussing it, go out and do something!"

    Except to get that far, people need to be able to discuss it without being shut-down by condescending mud-slinging bollocks - so what have people got against pointing out these problems, and discussing them?


    Every time these discussions stray from the 'disparage the protesters' circlejerk, to get to a more nuanced discussion of why and how the lack of protests is a problem, there seems to always be an effort to pull it back to the 'disparage the protesters' circlejerk.

    Why deliberately obstruct discussion?

    There comes a point in every thread you are in where you go on a rant about how other people make their arguments. You did it with me a while ago. You were invited to bring your complaints to the Mods. To which you responded:

    The method of argument that was being used to try and shut-down debate, was subtle enough that it allowed the poster to cast doubt in a dishonest way, while still maintaining credibility in the discussion - this is something the mods can not act upon, because it is difficult for posters to see this method of argument unless it is directly pointed out and dissected, and because it is a subtle enough method of dishonest argument, to fall within the grey area of what mods can and can not act upon.


    Which was nonsense then and is still nonsense now.

    Protests. People protest when they have a self interest to preserve. The trainee nurses were out this week. They were looking for more money or to keep the money they get already. They weren't protesting for the rights of other workers or pensioners or anyone else. The so called anti austerity protests are usually a ragbag of SWP and Eirigi types who are totally irrelevant.


  • #58
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Why did you dive back 2 pages in the thread, to reply to a post from yesterday, that (in between all your other replies since then) you could have replied to at any time?

    Why also, is there a constant undertone of condescension, against anyone who points out the lack of protests, or the problems with our countries politics - the message every time seems to be - usually in a very condescending manner:
    "Well if it's so important, stop discussing it, go out and do something!"

    Except to get that far, people need to be able to discuss it without being shut-down by condescending mud-slinging bollocks - so what have people got against pointing out these problems, and discussing them?


    Every time these discussions stray from the 'disparage the protesters' circlejerk, to get to a more nuanced discussion of why and how the lack of protests is a problem, there seems to always be an effort to pull it back to the 'disparage the protesters' circlejerk.

    Why deliberately obstruct discussion?

    Nobody is shutting you down, least of all me - that's sort of the point I was making. The post I replied to was whinging about a lack of choice in political talent to choose from - it's of the "they're all the same" school of thought. My point was that such an argument is moot in a democratic system - if you truly believe that all options are the same and choice is therefore meaningless, then you have the option and the freedom to present something else. Pointing this obvious fact out shuts down nothing, and tis well you know it.

    You tellingly mention that the discussion should be framed along the lines of why and how the lack of mass protests is a problem. Is it? Perhaps it's a sympthom, as opposed to a problem. A sympthom that the problems of our society and political system (and there are problems) aren't at the armageddon stage the OP framed it as being. Things are difficult and things could be better, but I'm not being oppressed in anything like an overt or serious way and I'd take a guess that neither are you.

    Someone in the thread asked why the protest everything brigade seems to feel the need to ask the rest of us for excuses as to why we don't feel the need to march through our streets with banners roaring slogans like they do - that's the crux of the issue, perhaps we feel that change is better came about some other way, or perhaps we don't feel that incidents like what happened in that video above are a productive use of time or energy in terms of actually achieving things...


  • #59
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There comes a point in every thread you are in where you go on a rant about how other people make their arguments. You did it with me a while ago. You were invited to bring your complaints to the Mods. To which you responded:

    The method of argument that was being used to try and shut-down debate, was subtle enough that it allowed the poster to cast doubt in a dishonest way, while still maintaining credibility in the discussion - this is something the mods can not act upon, because it is difficult for posters to see this method of argument unless it is directly pointed out and dissected, and because it is a subtle enough method of dishonest argument, to fall within the grey area of what mods can and can not act upon.


    Which was nonsense then and is still nonsense now.

    Protests. People protest when they have a self interest to preserve. The trainee nurses were out this week. They were looking for more money or to keep the money they get already. They weren't protesting for the rights of other workers or pensioners or anyone else. The so called anti austerity protests are usually a ragbag of SWP and Eirigi types who are totally irrelevant.

    Got it in one, my fellow hound! :pac:


  • #60
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There comes a point in every thread you are in where you go on a rant about how other people make their arguments. You did it with me a while ago. You were invited to bring your complaints to the Mods. To which you responded:

    The method of argument that was being used to try and shut-down debate, was subtle enough that it allowed the poster to cast doubt in a dishonest way, while still maintaining credibility in the discussion - this is something the mods can not act upon, because it is difficult for posters to see this method of argument unless it is directly pointed out and dissected, and because it is a subtle enough method of dishonest argument, to fall within the grey area of what mods can and can not act upon.


    Which was nonsense then and is still nonsense now.

    Protests. People protest when they have a self interest to preserve. The trainee nurses were out this week. They were looking for more money or to keep the money they get already. They weren't protesting for the rights of other workers or pensioners or anyone else. The so called anti austerity protests are usually a ragbag of SWP and Eirigi types who are totally irrelevant.
    Here are my last two posts referencing you in that thread:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88660657&postcount=153
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88664432&postcount=163

    Here is what you were doing in that thread:
    KyussBishop wrote:
    The tactic he is using to try and shut down debate, is to demand that the only valid evidence of corruption, is a court-case conviction - even when the corruption being talked about, is specifically being talked about because it is not being acted upon (making it impossible for it to have court-case conviction proof - he knows this, and knows full well that continuing to insist upon this, is an attempt to shut-down debate).

    This is further bolstered by the tactic, of insisting that the authorities who themselves are responsible for dealing with such corruption, are not corrupt or negligent themselves - with the implication of "the authorities will act upon all corruption, they just aren't informed about it, therefore, 1: the corruption did not happen because they did not act upon it, or 2: *smarmy condescending response, implying you should go to the Gardai to report corruption - implying it is bullshít, and ignoring all cases where this has been done, and has gone unacted upon - see '1'*"


    The basic result of every interaction with him, is the insistence: Corruption should not be talked about, until it is convicted (with the added implication that such corruption does not exist, because there is the authoritarian trust, that the responsible authorities would already have done something about it).

    He is soapboxing in order to try and distract from the actual discussion of corruption, to pour doubt and muddy the debate - he's not even hiding this either, which can be seen in how he falls back to the above basic insistence every time, only providing the pretence of a debate, to try and retain credibility with other posters (when what he has posted thus far, has removed any need to give him benefit of the doubt at this point).
    This amounts to trying to protect such corruption, and protect the idea of inaction against it, by pouring doubt on it and trying to prevent discussion of it.

    If you watch his posts, he never actually debates with you: He will give the pretence of a debate, but he will stick with his soapboxing position indicating that he is 'unconvinced' of any/all evidence short of a court-conviction, and will continue trying to dissuade people, implying/criticizing that they shouldn't discuss non-court-case-convicted corruption (i.e. to stop talking about pretty much all types of corruption that matter and are an issue of national importance).
    So yes, you were pretty directly soapboxing in that thread, with an argument you knew was dishonest, in order to try and shut-down discussion of corruption.

    In this thread, we have a different theme: A circlejerk between posters, which looks like it's a form of soapboxing, for repetitive disparaging of protesters - and trying to drive the discussion away from why the lack of protests is a problem, and towards disparaging of protesters - which you get right down to, at the end of your post.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    Nobody is shutting you down, least of all me - that's sort of the point I was making. The post I replied to was whinging about a lack of choice in political talent to choose from - it's of the "they're all the same" school of thought. My point was that such an argument is moot in a democratic system - if you truly believe that all options are the same and choice is therefore meaningless, then you have the option and the freedom to present something else. Pointing this obvious fact out shuts down nothing, and tis well you know it.

    You tellingly mention that the discussion should be framed along the lines of why and how the lack of mass protests is a problem. Is it? Perhaps it's a sympthom, as opposed to a problem. A sympthom that the problems of our society and political system (and there are problems) aren't at the armageddon stage the OP framed it as being. Things are difficult and things could be better, but I'm not being oppressed in anything like an overt or serious way and I'd take a guess that neither are you.

    Someone in the thread asked why the protest everything brigade seems to feel the need to ask the rest of us for excuses as to why we don't feel the need to march through our streets with banners roaring slogans like they do - that's the crux of the issue, perhaps we feel that change is better came about some other way, or perhaps we don't feel that incidents like what happened in that video above are a productive use of time or energy in terms of actually achieving things...
    Yes, and choosing now to pick out such a post, when you already have multiple posts replying to stuff since that - and when it's more than a day old; looked exactly like trying to keep the thread framed in a narrow direction (disparaging protesters).


    Your post, again, is loaded with presuppositions:
    1: That the only way to protest, is to protest like the idiot violent protesters;
    1a: Leading from that, that 'protesting' in general, is affected by the same criticisms you apply to violent protesters (no other reason to always cite the totally-unrepresentative violent minority, when referring to protesters);

    2: That people are capable of actually independently solving any problems, by entering politics personally;
    2a: That people have the time or ability to enter politics;
    2b: The previous point, with the way you framed it, also presupposes that people not protest anyway, if they don't have the time/ability for politics;
    2c: That entering politics aimlessly, is better than starting a large protest movement - a movement which you need, in order to properly focus on and form the policies and politicians, that will stand for election;
    2d: That tiny/marginalized new parties, can make any difference on their own, even if they do put together a decent set of policies and stand for election (as opposed to be being backed by a wider protest movement as well);

    3: That we should not protest - that we should settle - until our political system gets so bad it approaches 'armageddon' stage;
    4: That we are not 'overtly' oppressed, so we should not protest any issues we do know of;
    5: That people complaining of lack of protesting are asking for 'excuses' (nobody has asked for that).


    What is your 'other way' of bringing about change? I'd contend, that instead, your real attitude is 'there is no real problem worth doing anything about' - would I be wrong in assuming that?


Advertisement
Advertisement