fine gael ard fheis ; "lack of protests show the level of support for the government"

renegademaster

I've said it once, i've said it a thousand times tis a dangerous game the people of ireland are playign by continually doing nothing in the face of blatant corruption etc.

now we see the fact there have been very poorly attended protests or no protests at all over some issues that this is somehow a sign of the overwhelming support for government and all it's $hitty decisions.

what signal are we really sending to current and future governments if we show that we will never ever get angry enough to take back the power??

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

renegademaster wrote: »

I've said it once, i've said it a thousand times tis a dangerous game the people of ireland are playign by continually doing nothing in the face of blatant corruption etc.

now we see the fact there have been very poorly attended protests or no protests at all over some issues that this is somehow a sign of the overwhelming support for government and all it's $hitty decisions.

what signal are we really sending to current and future governments if we show that we will never ever get angry enough to take back the power??

what are you doing about it only ****ting on behind a computer?

If you really think things are that bad do something about it. In reality there not though, economy is improving and I'd love to see some evidence of this government corruption you refer to?

People took to the streets in places like the Ukraine and Greece because things are much, much worse there than in Ireland

Alf Veedersane

Most of the protests happen during my work hours.

I've never had a chance to burn my bondholder effigy

The Backwards Man

Nobody is stopping you protesting.

ArmaniJeanss

renegademaster wrote: »

I've said it once, i've said it a thousand times

Nah, only 495 times and counting.

Sir Arthur Daley

renegademaster wrote: »

tis a dangerous game the people of ireland are playign

I must stop playing Monopoly.

Alf Veedersane

WikiHow wrote: »

I must stop playing Monopoly.

It's alright to play with the thimble, the boot . the dog and the top hat.

But everything else is dangerous.

tin79

renegademaster wrote: »

what signal are we really sending to current and future governments if we show that we will never ever get angry enough to take back the power??

I am afraid I can never agree with anyone who uses the phrase "take back the power". It makes you sound like an odd mix of militant/hippie/socialist. That's not a good cocktail.

KyussBishop

For people to bother protesting, they first need to know:
1: What's wrong with things as they are now,
2: How much things can be improved, given the right policy changes.

People largely don't seem to give a shít about either, preferring simplistic/comforting platitudes like "it's worse in Africa/Greece", and "we don't really have it that bad" - to promote lazy thinking, rather than looking at the real problems that there are, which affect a wide array of people (particularly the unemployed, and persistently high unemployment - which we're still going to have many years of).

People have largely assimilated the There Is No Alternative line of thinking, and ignore/dismiss available alternatives - treating the current 'There Is No Alternative' set of policies as being respectable and unquestionable, and treating the alternatives with utter cynicism.

The few that might care, seem to be successfully co-opted by equally simplistic/platitudinous ideological solutions, like various forms of Libertarianism and anarchy-based-socialism, as well as anarchist 'revolutionary' type views - all of which just aren't practical.


I kind of doubt that it's possible to change this mindset at this point (or at least, I don't see how it can be done) - it's a pretty huge problem.

Chips Lovell

renegademaster wrote: »

what signal are we really sending to current and future governments if we show that we will never ever get angry enough to take back the power??

Take back the power? Eh, we elected this government. And the last one....

Foxhound38

Take back power from the Government we democratically elected and give it to whom, OP? People you happen to agree with/vote for?

You want to know why most people don't protest? Because most people don't want to be associated with the likes of this craic that went on outside the convention centre yesterday...

From someone who was there, apparently the violent aspect of the protest turned their anger towards the peaceful groups for not wanting to get involved in their melee with the Gardai and attacked them for not being as radical and cool and revolutionary as them, man. Also apparently that plonker of an MEP Paul Murphy got swung at by an anarchist protestor in the fracas.

What sane or in any way serious person would want to get involved in that?

The fact of the matter is, most - not all, but many - of the krusties at all of these things (and it is generally this same group of around 300 who are persistantly at the core of every protest going) aren't actually interested in changing squat - nor do they have any alternatives beyond simplistic platitudes.

They arrive at every protest because being seen to be anti-establishment is part of their self-identity, and they enjoy walking around down with placards roaring abuse at gardai/delegates/whoever.

*waits for someone to call me a sheep of some description*

Riskymove

Foxhound38 wrote: »

From someone who was there, apparently the violent aspect of the protest turned their anger towards the peaceful groups for not wanting to get involved in their melee with the Gardai and attacked them for not being as radical and cool and revolutionary as them, man.

"Brothers, we must unite against the common enemy"

"The Judean's People's front???"

Eight Ball

It's why the Irish people deserve what's happening to them imo. If you don't shout stop the establishment will just continue on as before. Suck it up.

EyeSight

who said that?

Also there are no good opposition groups to organise the protests. Either republicans do or the "very left" groups.

When idiots at protest decide to sit on the road and disrupt traffic(and not the politicians) it turns people against them

codie

Riskymove wrote: »

"Brothers, we must unite against the common enemy"

"The Judean's People's front???"

I thought that was the popular front of judea

Riskymove

codie wrote: »

I thought that was the popular front of judea

"Splitters"

codie

Marching and protesting seems to be a waste of time.The old age pensioners weren't listened to and they had a few marches,
farmers aren't listened to ,truckers aren't listened to, both have protested before.I could go on.Take the septic tank registration .Meetings were organized all over rural Ireland.A number of politicians in opposition told people to stand firm.There seemed to be a lot of opposition .Then the registration was dropped from €50 to €5 for a limited period and what happened.People rushed in to save €45 .My mother 'n law rushed in to pay hers and her sons because it meant €90 saving.How many more were like her.
In Ballyhea Co.Cork they march on the Cork main road against austerity and also in Charleville.I know some people there find them a nuisance for holding up traffic.
Marching doesn't seem to get you anywhere in this country as far as I can see.There are too many people still with a lot of money in Ireland.You see students in Galway there 2 weeks ago for the unofficial rag week queuing in there 100's early in the morning to get into a pub and even drinking while they waited.5 Garth Brooks concerts sold out like wildfire.
Plenty of money left in this old country and others are just sick to death of the whole austerity thing thats why their is a percentage that don't give a sh*t.

Foxhound38

EyeSight wrote: »

who said that?

It was from a FB status so I won't give names, but it's from a very well-known leftie academic who's very involved with this stuff...

The report was as follows:

Various groups were involved in protesting against the European Peoples Party meeting in Dublin today. Small groups were there through the day. The main protest was a march from Liberty Hall to the National Convention Centre starting at 6pm. This had broad support of the organised left and trade union and community groups. Left Forum was one of the sponsoring groups, along, with SP, WP, SWP, CPI, DCTU, Spectacle of Defiance, We're Not Leaving, etc. The first two speakers at Liberty Hall were from Left Forum: Des Derwin speaking for DCTU and myself for LF. Then Padrag Manion of WP and Sabine Wils MEP from Die Linke. It was chaired by Paul Murphy MEP. The 200 of us then marched along the river to the EPP venue. When we arrived, there was a barrier and line of Garda Siochana with dogs and batons ready. There were a group of 25 or so protestors already there who taunted us and then charged at police. These were Dublin Says No along with some anarchists with red and black flags and face masks. The police then charged at them and us. We proceeded to go to the side and continue our own protest. Speeches were given by Sean Edwards of CPI, Brid Smith of SWP and John Bissett of Spectacle of Defiance. When a young Spanish woman was speaking, the other protestors concentrated on protesting against us rather than EPP. One of them, *name removed*, charged at our protest and physically attacked Paul Murphy. Then there were scuffles between groups of protestors and police. We then decided to keep the sane left together and march together back to Liberty Hall. As we did so, there were more macho taunts from these self-romanticising and utterly toxic activists. Activists for what? Only for their own self-glorifying and deluded drama. Meanwhile, we tried to address what the EPP is in our world, a party representing plutocracy, and to meet class struggle from above with class struggle from below.

Do these sound like the actions of serious people to anyone? Do they sound like people anyone with a dose of sanity would want to be associated with?

sillyoulfool

Foxhound38 wrote: »

It was from a FB status so I won't give names, but it's from a very well-known leftie academic who's very involved with this stuff...

The report was as follows:



Do these sound like the actions of serious people to anyone? Do they sound like people anyone with a dose of sanity would want to be associated with?

This +1

kneemos

KyussBishop wrote: »

For people to bother protesting, they first need to know:
1: What's wrong with things as they are now,
2: How much things can be improved, given the right policy changes.

People largely don't seem to give a shít about either, preferring simplistic/comforting platitudes like "it's worse in Africa/Greece", and "we don't really have it that bad" - to promote lazy thinking, rather than looking at the real problems that there are, which affect a wide array of people (particularly the unemployed, and persistently high unemployment - which we're still going to have many years of).

People have largely assimilated the There Is No Alternative line of thinking, and ignore/dismiss available alternatives - treating the current 'There Is No Alternative' set of policies as being respectable and unquestionable, and treating the alternatives with utter cynicism.

The few that might care, seem to be successfully co-opted by equally simplistic/platitudinous ideological solutions, like various forms of Libertarianism and anarchy-based-socialism, as well as anarchist 'revolutionary' type views - all of which just aren't practical.


EI kind of doubt that it's possible to change this mindset at this point (or at least, I don't see how it can be done) - it's a pretty huge problem.[/q


Yaaawn.

OldRio

At the next election we will all troop through and vote for (pick name of political party) because of their great promises of reform. They have listened to the people and have taken note. A new dawning of political realism and empathic government will lead this country into a new dawn.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

KyussBishop

kneemos wrote: »

Yaaawn.

Adding to my earlier point as well: Anyone who does present alternatives or who cares about pointing out problems with the way things are run politically - or about pointing out political apathy in general - is considered 'boring', as if nobody should give a toss about politics or economics (kind of proving the point about apathy really).

KyussBishop

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Take back power from the Government we democratically elected and give it to whom, OP? People you happen to agree with/vote for?

You want to know why most people don't protest? Because most people don't want to be associated with the likes of this craic that went on outside the convention centre yesterday...

From someone who was there, apparently the violent aspect of the protest turned their anger towards the peaceful groups for not wanting to get involved in their melee with the Gardai and attacked them for not being as radical and cool and revolutionary as them, man. Also apparently that plonker of an MEP Paul Murphy got swung at by an anarchist protestor in the fracas.

What sane or in any way serious person would want to get involved in that?

The fact of the matter is, most - not all, but many - of the krusties at all of these things (and it is generally this same group of around 300 who are persistantly at the core of every protest going) aren't actually interested in changing squat - nor do they have any alternatives beyond simplistic platitudes.

They arrive at every protest because being seen to be anti-establishment is part of their self-identity, and they enjoy walking around down with placards roaring abuse at gardai/delegates/whoever.

*waits for someone to call me a sheep of some description*

Thing is, if people don't go out to protest, and outnumber these idiots, then these are forever going to be the only people out protesting.

If people let the anarchist groups scare people away from protesting, then that's very much the wrong attitude to take - should try to outnumber and marginalize them (and have a portion of people in attendance, able to defend against them if they try to attack another protest - probably shít themselves if stood up to properly), rather than be scared away by them.

If people say "I'm not going to bother protesting, because I don't want to be associated with these anarchist/violent/*insert-undesirable-trait* types", then that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, because then they're the main ones who are going to be protesting, making it more difficult to disassociate from them.

Saying that, is basically a person ruling-out ever protesting, because the situation is never going to change as long as people have that attitude.

KOTSC

Thread from facebook regarding yesterdays protest at the European Peoples Party convention in dublin.

From a point of observation looking at this thread there is deep divisions between various groups and various protesters.

https://www.facebook.com/hsheehan/posts/10152248736496624

KOTSC

I have being to a few different protests over the last few years, one question some should ask is why did some people go to protests and wouldn,t go again ?
speaking from experience and observation, the protest to the labour party conference in april 2012, prior to marching the organisers held a 1 hour long sessions of different ula speakers giving almost the exact same political speeches about working class unity etc, there was a lot of people bored sh...... in the crowd that afternoon, then upon arriving at the venue the labour party conference was being held guess what the organisers had another line up of ula speakers except this time there was speeches about austerity in greece and other countries, some of the crowd broke away that day got through the barriers up nearer to thr venue.

Another protest in summer 2012 against the household tax in dublin, there was a roughly a 15/20 minute march to the dail followed once again by an hour of political speeches, there were some people who travelled with me to those protests I mentioned who won,t attend any protest for a long time, if groups want people to attend protests my word of advice is cut the number of speakers and length of time they speak, an hour of speeches before even marching is bound to put people off attending future protests.

Joshua J

I admire you renegade I think your hearts in the right place but Boards.ie is too conservative and anti non-conformist to ever allow a grass roots movement to sprout. Maybe there was a time the place wasn't overrun with party people and political sycophants but that ship has sailed a long time ago. It's a good example of manipulated group think and believe me opinion is most definately manipulated here.

Davarus Walrus

I'll be voting for FG in the next election as I think they have done a pretty damn good job considering the circumstances. Trudging around the streets holding a badly made placard doesn't really do much.

Foxhound38

Joshua J wrote: »

I admire you renegade I think your hearts in the right place but Boards.ie is too conservative and anti non-conformist to ever allow a grass roots movement to sprout. Maybe there was a time the place wasn't overrun with party people and political sycophants but that ship has sailed a long time ago. It's a good example of manipulated group think and believe me opinion is most definately manipulated here.

Evidence?

I'm not a "party person" or a political sycophant - my political sympathies generally lie with the left tradition, if you can believe that. I'm a bemused observer giving an opinion - and that opinion in this case as with others is that the likes of what happened yesterday has very little to do with changing society and a lot more to do with ego, squabbling micro-groups trying to out-revolutionary each other, and professional protestors with too much time on their hands.

What exactly does having a ruck with the Gardai and then other protestors, and trying to deck an MEP who's on your side achieve? Very, very little IMO...

KyussBishop

Well, topics on protesting are a perfect example of group opinion being manipulated: A huge proportion of the time, these threads turn into a "bash the crusties/protesters" circlejerk, with the aim (of a handful of posters anyway) of delegitimizing the very idea of protesting.

This manipulates group opinion, into more people having a derogatory view of protesting (and depressing other peoples views of protesting/protesters, dissuading political action), creating more people to give a hand in the circlejerk next time it comes around - a lot of them probably not even realizing what they are perpetuating.

You won't ever find evidence of deliberate manipulation of opinions, on anonymous message boards, but there's plenty of precedent all over the world now, of money being put into astroturfing and other propaganda campaigns, aimed at influencing public opinion: It'd be extremely naive, to think this doesn't happen on Boards now too.

Joshua J

Welcome class to internet debating 101. Let's begin.

So origionally i posted a pretty general opinion on Boards.ie. If you dislike this opinion and wish to counter out then firstly set out how it doesn't apply to you. See below. However ask yourself why something that you say doesn't apply to you would make you self-identify as a member of that group and actually start out in a defensive manner?.

Next is to personalise the debate. The poster tries to pigeon-hole me into a political position with the "your"(notice the bold for emphasis). The intent was to put me on the defensive now where I have to explain/defend a position I never took. All very text book. This is used to frame the debate away from the origional point to a more tit-for-tat sort of conversation where the poster feels more comfortable and thus is successful in stifling proper debate.

Stay tuned for more lessons.

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Evidence?

I'm not a "party person" or a political sycophant - my political sympathies generally lie with the left tradition, if you can believe that. I'm a bemused observer giving an opinion - and that opinion in this case as with others is that the likes of what happened yesterday has very little to do with changing society and a lot more to do with ego, squabbling micro-groups trying to out-revolutionary each other, and professional protestors with too much time on their hands.

What exactly does having a ruck with the Gardai and then other protestors, and trying to deck an MEP who's on your side achieve? Very, very little IMO...

Foxhound38

KyussBishop wrote: »

Well, topics on protesting are a perfect example of group opinion being manipulated: A huge proportion of the time, these threads turn into a "bash the crusties/protesters" circlejerk, with the aim (of a handful of posters anyway) of delegitimizing the very idea of protesting.

This manipulates group opinion, into more people having a derogatory view of protesting (and depressing other peoples views of protesting/protesters, dissuading political action), creating more people to give a hand in the circlejerk next time it comes around - a lot of them probably not even realizing what they are perpetuating.

You won't ever find evidence of deliberate manipulation of opinions, on anonymous message boards, but there's plenty of precedent all over the world now, of money being put into astroturfing and other propaganda campaigns, aimed at influencing public opinion: It'd be extremely naive, to think this doesn't happen on Boards now too.

I take your point, but on the other hand often when the issue of protesting comes up on boards it's because the protestors in question have done something themselves to delegitimize said protesting. I'd say that craic yesterday did far more to alienate normal people from the idea of getting on the streets than could any amount of circle-jerking on boards...

It's a good point you make (or at least I think it was you who made it) about it being a self-fulfilling prophecy - extremist idiots acting like extremist idiots at protests which turns off normal people from protesting thus ensuring that the extremist idiots dominate more protests. Unfortunately I think it will have to be the groups involved themselves that will first have to cop on to the fact that allowing such eejitry to go on in their demos does them and their cause no favours in terms of getting the public on side and do something about it before any sort of progress can be made...

I mean, I certaintly wouldn't go to a protest if I thought there was a decent possibility that a group of morons would try to pick a fight with the gardai and get us all baton-charged for being in the same place - mostly because I don't want to get my face smashed in.

DrumSteve

The problem with protesting in this country is that it always gets highjacked by the same shower of gimps.

KyussBishop

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I take your point, but on the other hand often when the issue of protesting comes up on boards it's because the protestors in question have done something themselves to delegitimize said protesting. I'd say that craic yesterday did far more to alienate normal people from the idea of getting on the streets than could any amount of circle-jerking on boards...

It's a good point you make (or at least I think it was you who made it) about it being a self-fulfilling prophecy - extremist idiots acting like extremist idiots at protests which turns off normal people from protesting thus ensuring that the extremist idiots dominate more protests. Unfortunately I think it will have to be the groups involved themselves that will first have to cop on to the fact that allowing such eejitry to go on in their demos does them and their cause no favours in terms of getting the public on side and do something about it before any sort of progress can be made...

I mean, I certaintly wouldn't go to a protest if I thought there was a decent possibility that a group of morons would try to pick a fight with the gardai and get us all baton-charged for being in the same place - mostly because I don't want to get my face smashed in.

Thing is, if any powerful political group wants to discourage protesting, to protect the influence they've gained, then all they need to do is just lightly encourage crackpot/violent protest groups - they only seem to need a tiny minority to dissuade most of the population.

So there you go, that's a perfect way to manipulate the population into avoiding protesting - you even have precedent of agent provocateur's in the UK, doing exactly this (encouraging violence by anarchist protesters).
This is precisely the tactic the police in the UK used: Agent provocateurs, helping to encourage idiots into acting violent, for justifying police violence and a crackdown on a whole group of - mostly unrelated - protesters (as well as other silly crap like kettling).


These idiot groups are never going to go away - hell maybe they're even being deliberately provoked, because they are useful in dissuading protesting in general - so are people just going to let them destroy protests?

People ought to be cynical about it, and wonder if their presence is deliberate - and even if it isn't, people need to recognize that the only way to remove their power to dissuade protesting, is to (paradoxically) get out there in large enough numbers to make them irrelevant.

Sh1tbag OToole

I think these days everyone gets a nice fuzzy feeling of belonging to the community when they pay their property tax. So much so that it has turned them all into FinneGwale supporters

renegademaster

codie wrote: »

Marching and protesting seems to be a waste of time.The old age pensioners weren't listened to and they had a few marches,
farmers aren't listened to ,truckers aren't listened to, both have protested before.I could go on.Take the septic tank registration .Meetings were organized all over rural Ireland.A number of politicians in opposition told people to stand firm.There seemed to be a lot of opposition .Then the registration was dropped from €50 to €5 for a limited period and what happened.People rushed in to save €45 .My mother 'n law rushed in to pay hers and her sons because it meant €90 saving.How many more were like her.
In Ballyhea Co.Cork they march on the Cork main road against austerity and also in Charleville.I know some people there find them a nuisance for holding up traffic.
Marching doesn't seem to get you anywhere in this country as far as I can see.There are too many people still with a lot of money in Ireland.You see students in Galway there 2 weeks ago for the unofficial rag week queuing in there 100's early in the morning to get into a pub and even drinking while they waited.5 Garth Brooks concerts sold out like wildfire.
Plenty of money left in this old country and others are just sick to death of the whole austerity thing thats why their is a percentage that don't give a sh*t.

pensioners are listened to cos they go out and fight for what's right, 150,000 showdd up in dublin nov 2010 to try force fianna fail to call general elections and the following week they did, since then not one protest has come close to nov 2010 size, even when there's similtanious protests across the country under the one banner we haven't managed it. they problem is not with protesting, it's more down to the fact a handful of people can be ignored

Foxhound38 wrote: »

It was from a FB status so I won't give names, but it's from a very well-known leftie academic who's very involved with this stuff...

The report was as follows:



Do these sound like the actions of serious people to anyone? Do they sound like people anyone with a dose of sanity would want to be associated with?

KOTSC wrote: »

Thread from facebook regarding yesterdays protest at the European Peoples Party convention in dublin.

From a point of observation looking at this thread there is deep divisions between various groups and various protesters.

https://www.facebook.com/hsheehan/posts/10152248736496624

KOTSC wrote: »

I have being to a few different protests over the last few years, one question some should ask is why did some people go to protests and wouldn,t go again ?
speaking from experience and observation, the protest to the labour party conference in april 2012, prior to marching the organisers held a 1 hour long sessions of different ula speakers giving almost the exact same political speeches about working class unity etc, there was a lot of people bored sh...... in the crowd that afternoon, then upon arriving at the venue the labour party conference was being held guess what the organisers had another line up of ula speakers except this time there was speeches about austerity in greece and other countries, some of the crowd broke away that day got through the barriers up nearer to thr venue.

Another protest in summer 2012 against the household tax in dublin, there was a roughly a 15/20 minute march to the dail followed once again by an hour of political speeches, there were some people who travelled with me to those protests I mentioned who won,t attend any protest for a long time, if groups want people to attend protests my word of advice is cut the number of speakers and length of time they speak, an hour of speeches before even marching is bound to put people off attending future protests.

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I take your point, but on the other hand often when the issue of protesting comes up on boards it's because the protestors in question have done something themselves to delegitimize said protesting. I'd say that craic yesterday did far more to alienate normal people from the idea of getting on the streets than could any amount of circle-jerking on boards...

It's a good point you make (or at least I think it was you who made it) about it being a self-fulfilling prophecy - extremist idiots acting like extremist idiots at protests which turns off normal people from protesting thus ensuring that the extremist idiots dominate more protests. Unfortunately I think it will have to be the groups involved themselves that will first have to cop on to the fact that allowing such eejitry to go on in their demos does them and their cause no favours in terms of getting the public on side and do something about it before any sort of progress can be made...

I mean, I certaintly wouldn't go to a protest if I thought there was a decent possibility that a group of morons would try to pick a fight with the gardai and get us all baton-charged for being in the same place - mostly because I don't want to get my face smashed in.

DrumSteve wrote: »

The problem with protesting in this country is that it always gets highjacked by the same shower of gimps.

a tiny group of people have frightened the irish people from protesting, more like the irish people took that excuse and fcuking well ran with it!! i am sick to my stomach of listening to all the excuses.

i've been at these protests and if a handful take over it's because they're let take it over.

god help us cos some day we're going to reslise that we are fighting corrupt government and nutjobs who'll want the power for themselves and by then the nutjobs will have amassed their own army that will not be reasoned with. while our heads are buried in the sand the fascists in ireland are busy spreading out and someday they'll be at protests and not even large groups of normals will stop the mass mobs.

today even groups of 20 are stopping the whole country from protesting

OH MY FCUKING GOD!!!!

Foxhound38

renegademaster wrote: »

pensioners are listened to cos they go out and fight for what's right, 150,000 showdd up in dublin nov 2010 to try force fianna fail to call general elections and the following week they did, since then not one protest has come close to nov 2010 size, even when there's similtanious protests across the country under the one banner we haven't managed it. they problem is not with protesting, it's more down to the fact a handful of people can be ignored











a tiny group of people have frightened the irish people from protesting, more like the irish people took that excuse and fcuking well ran with it!! i am sick to my stomach of listening to all the excuses.

i've been at these protests and if a handful take over it's because they're let take it over.

god help us cos some day we're going to reslise that we are fighting corrupt government and nutjobs who'll want the power for themselves and by then the nutjobs will have amassed their own army that will not be reasoned with. while our heads are buried in the sand the fascists in ireland are busy spreading out and someday they'll be at protests and not even large groups of normals will stop the mass mobs.

today even groups of 20 are stopping the whole country from protesting

OH MY FCUKING GOD!!!!

You still haven't answered the question about who you would like to replace the Government we elected with and to what end?

We know what you are against OP, but what are you for?

renegademaster

Foxhound38 wrote: »

You still haven't answered the question about who you would like to replace the Government we elected with and to what end?

We know what you are against OP, but what are you for?

i don't want government replaced, i'm simply asking that the irish people excert enough pressure, so as to remind those in power, past/present and the future, who the fcuk they're working for!!

no need to complicate a very simple process, people show they care enough to protest, government/corrupt individuals consider doing the right thing, people show they don't give a $hit or will use 15 or 20 nutters as their excuse why they won't take to the streets, government/corrupt individuals can only take one thing from the latter and that's carry on.

that simple enough for you?

Foxhound38

renegademaster wrote: »

i don't want government replaced, i'm simply asking that the irish people excert enough pressure, so as to remind those in power, past/present and the future, who the fcuk they're working for!!

So to remind them that we exist? I'm sure they are aware of the existance of their electorates - politicians tend to spend quite a bit of time worrying about who is/isn't voting for them in a democracy. Sort of the point of the system...

There's a whiff of "is there anything to be said for having another mass/protest" in what you are prescribing here...

renegademaster wrote: »

no need to complicate a very simple process, people show they care enough to protest, government/corrupt individuals consider doing the right thing, people show they don't give a $hit or will use 15 or 20 nutters as their excuse why they won't take to the streets, government/corrupt individuals can only take one thing from the latter and that's carry on.

Two follow-up questions then - 1.) are you implying that every government politician is a corrupt individual? When did this happen? Is there a secret mafia-esque initiation into the world of political corruption on the night they go from private citizen to elected representitive, or where they always corrupt individuals?

And 2.) What do you consider to be "doing the right thing"? Some would say that getting the economy solvent again is the right thing, others would say that prioritizing the social safety net over economic concerns is the right thing. It's fairly subjective...

Do you reckon that politicians are willfully going out of their way to do "the wrong thing", for the craic or because they don't like votes?

renegademaster wrote: »

that simple enough for you?

Indeed, some would say it's a little too simple...

Muise...

renegademaster wrote: »

a tiny group of people have frightened the irish people from protesting, more like the irish people took that excuse and fcuking well ran with it!! i am sick to my stomach of listening to all the excuses.

i've been at these protests and if a handful take over it's because they're let take it over.

god help us cos some day we're going to reslise that we are fighting corrupt government and nutjobs who'll want the power for themselves and by then the nutjobs will have amassed their own army that will not be reasoned with. while our heads are buried in the sand the fascists in ireland are busy spreading out and someday they'll be at protests and not even large groups of normals will stop the mass mobs.

today even groups of 20 are stopping the whole country from protesting

OH MY FCUKING GOD!!!!

Why should the Irish people have to excuse themselves from your protests? You're the opposite of persuasive, even before we read your armageddon fantasy.

For Forks Sake

KOTSC wrote: »

Thread from facebook regarding yesterdays protest at the European Peoples Party convention in dublin.

From a point of observation looking at this thread there is deep divisions between various groups and various protesters.

https://www.facebook.com/hsheehan/posts/10152248736496624

Splitters? Well, I never...

RobbingBandit

If you sheeple elect me dictator I promise to sell our children to zoos for meat and to go into people's houses at night and reck up the place...

(Insert cartoon/Bond Villian laughter.)

KyussBishop

Foxhound38 wrote: »

So to remind them that we exist? I'm sure they are aware of the existance of their electorates - politicians tend to spend quite a bit of time worrying about who is/isn't voting for them in a democracy. Sort of the point of the system...

There's a whiff of "is there anything to be said for having another mass/protest" in what you are prescribing here...



Two follow-up questions then - 1.) are you implying that every government politician is a corrupt individual? When did this happen? Is there a secret mafia-esque initiation into the world of political corruption on the night they go from private citizen to elected representitive, or where they always corrupt individuals?

And 2.) What do you consider to be "doing the right thing"? Some would say that getting the economy solvent again is the right thing, others would say that prioritizing the social safety net over economic concerns is the right thing. It's fairly subjective...

Do you reckon that politicians are willfully going out of their way to do "the wrong thing", for the craic or because they don't like votes?



Indeed, some would say it's a little too simple...

Your post has a handful of (both stated and unstated) premises, that are inaccurate:
1: That votes actually have a defining influence on what politicians do once they get into power,
1a: That politicians are honest enough not to lie to the electorate to get into power,
1b: That politicians do what they claimed they would at election time, once they get into power,
1c: That politicians 'care' what the electorate think, about their actions/inactions, rather than just their superficial outward appearance,
2: That when it comes to 'doing the right thing', this is subjective and just a matter of opinion, rather than a lot of policies (particularly the arguments backing them) being objectively debatable.


Do you think there is anything worth protesting about, with the way the country is being governed?

Do you think there is no political corruption?

KyussBishop

Muise... wrote: »

Why should the Irish people have to excuse themselves from your protests? You're the opposite of persuasive, even before we read your armageddon fantasy.

The problem is not just that people are unconvinced of the need for more and bigger protests, it's that people are largely unconvincible, regardless of the argument put forward.

A lot of the most important arguments for protesting, are so FUD-filled, and debate on them turns to the gutter so fast, that people (in general) bore of those arguments really easily - it's not possible to convince anyone, given conditions like that.

That's the point of spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt); muddy the debate enough, to prevent people being convinced that something is a legitimate/worthwhile issue, until they get bored of it and don't care to hear of it - it's why a lot of debate on some of the most important topics turns to shít (I think this is particularly true, of economics as a topic).

Muise...

KyussBishop wrote: »

The problem is not just that people are unconvinced of the need for more and bigger protests, it's that people are largely unconvincible, regardless of the argument put forward.

A lot of the most important arguments for protesting, are so FUD-filled, and debate on them turns to the gutter so fast, that people (in general) bore of those arguments really easily - it's not possible to convince anyone, given conditions like that.

That's the point of spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt); muddy the debate enough, to prevent people being convinced that something is a legitimate/worthwhile issue, until they get bored of it and don't care to hear of it - it's why a lot of debate on some of the most important topics turns to shít (I think this is particularly true, of economics as a topic).

Rather than back up your claim that we need more and bigger protests, make up a thing and call us all FUD'd up - that is staggeringly unconvincing!

KyussBishop

Muise... wrote: »

Rather than back up your claim that we need more and bigger protests, make up a thing and call us all FUD'd up - that is staggeringly unconvincing!

I didn't say people are "all FUD'd up" - that shows both that you don't even know what the term means, and second that you didn't even bother fully reading my post - other than just skimming it - as I explain it right there.

Posters that like to act 'unconvinced' perpetually, are - at best - too damn lazy to even properly consider the content of another persons post, or - more often, though not in this case - looking to take a crap on whatever argument is put forward, no matter what it is or what there is to back it, for spreading FUD.

GaelMise

renegademaster wrote: »

I've said it once, i've said it a thousand times tis a dangerous game the people of ireland are playign by continually doing nothing in the face of blatant corruption etc.

The biggest protest since the government took office was only a few weeks ago outside Leinster house.
Cant really say no one is protesting.

csallmighty

It done Ukraine a world of good

GaelMise

csallmighty wrote: »

It done Ukraine a world of good

Well, you can't say it did'nt change anything.

Muise...

KyussBishop wrote: »

I didn't say people are "all FUD'd up" - that shows both that you don't even know what the term means, and second that you didn't even bother fully reading my post - other than just skimming it - as I explain it right there.

Posters that like to act 'unconvinced' perpetually, are - at best - too damn lazy to even properly consider the content of another persons post, or - more often, though not in this case - looking to take a crap on whatever argument is put forward, no matter what it is or what there is to back it, for spreading FUD.

Case in point: you seem to be so bothered by a disagreement that you pathologise it - fear, ignorance, laziness, apathy, brainwashing...

when really, some people just don't agree with you. Shall I expect a personal protest from you?

AllGunsBlazing

No need for mass protests when you have a functioning democracy. FG's arrogance will be it's undoing come the next election. Can see it coming from a mile away.

KyussBishop

Muise... wrote: »

Case in point: you seem to be so bothered by a disagreement that you pathologise it - fear, ignorance, laziness, apathy, brainwashing...

when really, some people just don't agree with you. Shall I expect a personal protest from you?

You don't know what 'patholigise' means (criticisms are not pathologising, and 'FUD' has nothing to do with pathologising), and your own accusation of 'pathologising' is, ironically, exactly what you'd use to try and deflect a disagreement, it's like saying "anyone who disagrees-with/criticises me is just pathologising".

You don't know what FUD means either - which you're displaying once again - making your criticisms inherently wrong; I don't think you actually read my post (since I explain FUD in it).


You've misrepresented what I've said twice thus far, in a way that completely distracts from the entire point of my original post.