Scottish Independence

househero · 07-03-2014 5:10am

ardmacha wrote: »

the limitations of the UK model where the poorer parts get poorer and have to be bailed out by handouts.

Its a good point. Its is 'poorer' because it is controlled by a government with Other priorities.

A country controlled by any other external power, rarely, if EVER does well. England's empire failed due to this exact conflict of policies.

Iwasfrozen · 07-03-2014 8:18am

ardmacha wrote: »

Firstly, this is quite a short term document. Scotland should not decide its future on the basis of 2015 growth rates, but should have a long term perspective.

Secondly, even the EY document you cite shows that the ROI will have a growth rate 1.1% higher than the UK after 2016, which is quite a significant difference, I'm sure Scotland would settle for that. It also shows that NI will have a growth rate 0.1% lower than the UK generally, which illustrates the limitations of the UK model where the poorer parts get poorer and have to be bailed out by handouts.

You've totally missed the basis of my post that historically growth rates have been highly correlated between Ireland and the UK and a projected 1.1% growth rate in Ireland's favour above the UK does not contradict that.

If you'll look at the table you will see Irish and British growth rates are quite highly correlated as one would expect given the reliance of Ireland on the British market.

Iwasfrozen · 07-03-2014 8:22am

househero wrote: »

Its a good point. Its is 'poorer' because it is controlled by a government with Other priorities.

A country controlled by any other external power, rarely, if EVER does well. England's empire failed due to this exact conflict of policies.

It was controlled by a government with other priorities in the early 20th century when what would become Northern Ireland was considered one of the greatest industrial regions of the world. All while being under British control.

Scofflaw · 07-03-2014 9:08am

househero wrote: »

Its a good point. Its is 'poorer' because it is controlled by a government with Other priorities.

A country controlled by any other external power, rarely, if EVER does well. England's empire failed due to this exact conflict of policies.

What? Not a bit. First, the Empire was definitely British, not English. Scottish and Irish people were fairly heavily over-represented in the Imperial apparatus of government and control for their population. Second, the main reason for its failure is generally agreed to have been the effects of the First and Second World War both on UK finances and colonial/domestic expectations.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sfakiaman · 07-03-2014 9:22am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why is it Scottish oil and not British?

A fairly comprehensive article on the continental shelf here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070

I would consider that the waters which come under Scottish legal jurisdiction will be Scottish on independence and therefor the resources on and under those waters will be Scottish.

AlanG · 07-03-2014 9:22am

First Up wrote: »

an independent Scotland joining the EU would need the agreement of all (28) member states.

It is also my understanding that no one can join the EU now without committing to a definite plan for joining the Euro. If Scotland applies and wants to stay out of the Euro it would set a precedence the EU would not be happy with.

Iwasfrozen · 07-03-2014 9:30am

sfakiaman wrote: »

A fairly comprehensive article on the continental shelf here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070

I would consider that the waters which come under Scottish legal jurisdiction will be Scottish on independence and therefor the resources on and under those waters will be Scottish.

Presumably so but while the oil does seem to lie largely in Scottish waters Scottish independence hasn't happened yet (if it ever will) so it's neither helpful nor accurate to talk about "Scottish" oil when referring to what is in reality British oil.

sfakiaman · 07-03-2014 9:36am

AlanG wrote: »

It is also my understanding that no one can join the EU now without committing to a definite plan for joining the Euro. If Scotland applies and wants to stay out of the Euro it would set a precedence the EU would not be happy with.

Whether you are right or wrong, the problem at the moment is that only the UK government can negotiate with the EU and Westminster will not negotiate on anything until a Yes vote. This allows them to spread uncertainty and confusion. Imagine a case of a divorcing couple where one partner says, you can't be friends with our friends unless they all agree, and you're not allowed to talk to them till after the divorce.

bobcoffee · 07-03-2014 11:15am

the Amount of "pro" british reading in this thread has gone beyond levels that it ever should be.

British Empire is not British first... it is english first deal with it.
Oil is a major part of the process and discussing it has plenty of value.
If you guys can not see the above as something as worth (regardless of being true or not).
Then I recommend picking up a history book and start were ever you want in ENGLISH history.

Mind you I have seen "british" school history books, so if your learning from them and still are lost I am not surprised.
Plenty of history missing from them and I doubt much has changed in the last 10 years.

Fratton Fred · 07-03-2014 11:58am

bobcoffee wrote: »

the Amount of "pro" british reading in this thread has gone beyond levels that it ever should be.

British Empire is not British first... it is english first deal with it.
Oil is a major part of the process and discussing it has plenty of value.
If you guys can not see the above as something as worth (regardless of being true or not).
Then I recommend picking up a history book and start were ever you want in ENGLISH history.

Mind you I have seen "british" school history books, so if your learning from them and still are lost I am not surprised.
Plenty of history missing from them and I doubt much has changed in the last 10 years.

I can see Scottish history will go the way of Irish history.

"Please sir, it wasn't us, it was those nasty big boys over there".

First Up · 07-03-2014 3:16pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can see Scottish history will go the way of Irish history.

"Please sir, it wasn't us, it was those nasty big boys over there".

Are you suggesting that the Scots should bugger up their economic future to avenge Cullodon or the Clearances?

Smart.

Fratton Fred · 07-03-2014 4:20pm

First Up wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the Scots should bugger up their economic future to avenge Cullodon or the Clearances?

Smart.

The Scots can do what they like, but to try and pretend the Scots are/were not an intrinsic part of Britain and all that entails, especially empire, is ridiculous in the extreme.

MakeMyFriend · 07-03-2014 4:22pm

househero wrote: »

A vote will sort this very question out. But no you are wrong. Scotland is its own country under the rule of an outside power and it is the Scottish people who have the rights of Scottish oil, not the English.

Right but as of now, it's part of the UK, so it's "British" (it's ****ing oil, not your aunt), doesn't matter what YOU want. Those are just the facts as of now.

Godge · 07-03-2014 4:28pm

househero wrote: »

A vote will sort this very question out. But no you are wrong. Scotland is its own country under the rule of an outside power and it is the Scottish people who have the rights of Scottish oil, not the English.

I thought this was clarified already and it is clear in law that Scotland is not its own country.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Only geographically. The "Great Britain" in the name of the UK is actually the united kingdom formed by the union of the Scottish and English crowns in 1707. Scottish independence consists of 'dividing' the crowns again, making England and Scotland separate kingdoms as they were before the Act of Union.

That division means there is no united kingdom of Great Britain any more. That entity ceases to exist, and that is the entity that forms part of the UK's name.

Northern Ireland is the remaining part of the Kingdom of Ireland. The current UK is formed of the united crowns of Scotland and England as Great Britain (1707), united in turn with the crown of Ireland (1801) as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The fact that the 26 counties had left the UK was recognised by the addition of "Northern" in 1927.

Wales doesn't get a mention because it's (a) a principality not a kingdom, and (b) was annexed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

MakeMyFriend · 07-03-2014 4:31pm

bobcoffee wrote: »

the Amount of "pro" british reading in this thread has gone beyond levels that it ever should be.

British Empire is not British first... it is english first deal with it.
Oil is a major part of the process and discussing it has plenty of value.
If you guys can not see the above as something as worth (regardless of being true or not).
Then I recommend picking up a history book and start were ever you want in ENGLISH history.

Mind you I have seen "british" school history books, so if your learning from them and still are lost I am not surprised.
Plenty of history missing from them and I doubt much has changed in the last 10 years.

Don't confuse "pro-British" with anti-nationalism and anti-separatism. Not accusing you, it's just when I say I'm against independence for example, people assume I'm a Unionist. When in fact I hate most of the Better Together lot. "Britain is a proud union"/"Britain is great". No it isn't, it's rubbish, corrupt and broken. Go away.

First Up · 07-03-2014 5:29pm

MakeMyFriend wrote: »

Don't confuse "pro-British" with anti-nationalism and anti-separatism. Not accusing you, it's just when I say I'm against independence for example, people assume I'm a Unionist. When in fact I hate most of the Better Together lot. "Britain is a proud union"/"Britain is great". No it isn't, it's rubbish, corrupt and broken. Go away.

I am considerably better disposed towards Scotland than England, or the UK as a whole. That's why I don't want to see them do something stupid

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 07-03-2014 7:46pm

MakeMyFriend wrote: »

Don't confuse "pro-British" with anti-nationalism and anti-separatism. Not accusing you, it's just when I say I'm against independence for example, people assume I'm a Unionist. When in fact I hate most of the Better Together lot. "Britain is a proud union"/"Britain is great". No it isn't, it's rubbish, corrupt and broken. Go away.

But yet you want Scotland to remain part of this rubbish, broken and corrupt union. Excuse me if I am picking you up wrong but is that what you are saying

bobcoffee · 07-03-2014 8:23pm

Well it then comes back to look at our government and their corruption, good chance Scotland will have to deal with that kind of mess.
Independence will leave an opening for "loopholes" and other madness that plagues our country.
EU done a report recently that states what happened to Ireland (crisis) was against human rights but what is done is done kind of attitude.

So while there might be some benefits to "freedom" there are plenty of negatives too.
See that leader, some spanish guy in the EU (one of the top dogs).
Well he is sure going to make things difficult, believe he been on the news within the last 2 days ranting about a few things.

Independence done right is what is needed, what is the chances of that going to happen?
Sure plenty on these forums don't don't see any problems with the regime that has been in place since 9/11.

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 07-03-2014 8:35pm

bobcoffee wrote: »

Well it then comes back to look at our government and their corruption, good chance Scotland will have to deal with that kind of mess.
Independence will leave an opening for "loopholes" and other madness that plagues our country.
EU done a report recently that states what happened to Ireland (crisis) was against human rights but what is done is done kind of attitude.

So while there might be some benefits to "freedom" there are plenty of negatives too.
See that leader, some spanish guy in the EU (one of the top dogs).
Well he is sure going to make things difficult, believe he been on the news within the last 2 days ranting about a few things.

Independence done right is what is needed, what is the chances of that going to happen?
Sure plenty on these forums don't don't see any problems with the regime that has been in place since 9/11.

You could be right but you could be wrong I believe Scotland has a right to make its own mistakes. Maybe the politicians there will be looking at the mess places like here have made and go out there way to avoid them. Not doing anything could be the worst one the ordinary people make

First Up · 07-03-2014 8:36pm

bobcoffee wrote: »

Well it then comes back to look at our government and their corruption, good chance Scotland will have to deal with that kind of mess.
Independence will leave an opening for "loopholes" and other madness that plagues our country.
EU done a report recently that states what happened to Ireland (crisis) was against human rights but what is done is done kind of attitude.

So while there might be some benefits to "freedom" there are plenty of negatives too.
See that leader, some spanish guy in the EU (one of the top dogs).
Well he is sure going to make things difficult, believe he been on the news within the last 2 days ranting about a few things.

Independence done right is what is needed, what is the chances of that going to happen?
Sure plenty on these forums don't don't see any problems with the regime that has been in place since 9/11.

I'm waiting for the code breakers to report back before thinking about answering that one.

First Up · 07-03-2014 8:47pm

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

You could be right but you could be wrong I believe Scotland has a right to make its own mistakes. Maybe the politicians there will be looking at the mess places like here have made and go out there way to avoid them. Not doing anything could be the worst one the ordinary people make

I know it's nice to have a rant but could you elaborate on statements like "mess places like here have made" so we know what you are talking about?
If I want slogans I can look at graffiti but a debate needs a bit more.

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 07-03-2014 8:53pm

First Up wrote: »

I know it's nice to have a rant but could you elaborate on statements like "mess places like here have made" so we know what you are talking about?
If I want slogans I can look at graffiti but a debate needs a bit more.

Oh get off yer high horse I was distracted by my baby grandson crying. Debate that

First Up · 07-03-2014 8:56pm

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Oh get off yer high horse I was distracted by my baby grandson crying. Debate that

Better excuse than some.

Iwasfrozen · 07-03-2014 9:00pm

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

But yet you want Scotland to remain part of this rubbish, broken and corrupt union. Excuse me if I am picking you up wrong but is that what you are saying

Do you have anything to back that up? Last time I checked the United Kingdom was in possession of

The most powerful Military in Western Europe.
The Second most powerful navy in the world.
International military bases and a constant military presence in every continent in the world.
One of three financial centres in the world, London. The other two being New York and Tokyo.
A permanent seat on the UN security council.
Historical and familial connections with many powerful countries including Canada and Australia.
A stable currency.
The ability and opportunity to project their culture across the entire planet through the dominance of the English language.
A permanent stock of armed Nuclear weapons.
Closest operational ally of the world's only remaining Superpower which guarantees British protection from outside threats without having to sacrifice their economy to build up a needlessly large military.

All that combined together sounds like a Great Power to me, I don't see a broken Union.

MakeMyFriend · 07-03-2014 10:06pm

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

But yet you want Scotland to remain part of this rubbish, broken and corrupt union. Excuse me if I am picking you up wrong but is that what you are saying

Because going independent will do nothing but set the economy back, we'll still have the same parties, as well, for example, Scotland voted no for the AV system ... yeah. But fundamentally it makes absolutely no sense on a cultural level, England and Scotland aren't even remotely different let's be honest, so what is the point? Why not sort all these issues inside the UK, and not outside? Clearly it benefits more people. Because of separatism, us and them mentality, nationalism, "We "Scots" do this, those "English" do that", why am I being bunched together with Scottish people but not the English, in the eyes of some people? I don't like being told who I'm apart of and who I'm not.

A Dub in Glasgo · 07-03-2014 10:27pm

Scotland's economy has been set back quite a bit already

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 08-03-2014 12:22am

First Up wrote: »

Better excuse than some.

Really if I hadn't wanted to answer you I would have ignored you totally believe it or not some of us have a life away from the internet. Really how far up your arse is your head

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 08-03-2014 12:25am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you have anything to back that up? Last time I checked the United Kingdom was in possession of
The most powerful Military in Western Europe.

The Second most powerful navy in the world.

International military bases and a constant military presence in every continent in the world.

One of three financial centres in the world, London. The other two being New York and Tokyo.

A permanent seat on the UN security council.

Historical and familial connections with many powerful countries including Canada and Australia.

A stable currency.

The ability and opportunity to project their culture across the entire planet through the dominance of the English language.

A permanent stock of armed Nuclear weapons.

Closest operational ally of the world's only remaining Superpower which guarantees British protection from outside threats without having to sacrifice their economy to build up a needlessly large military.

All that combined together sounds like a Great Power to me, I don't see a broken Union.

Really you should read the post I was replying to before jumping in with both feet.

Iwasfrozen · 08-03-2014 2:44am

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Really you should read the post I was replying to before jumping in with both feet.

I did. And not only did I read it I even highlighted a section. Didn't you see it?

TireeTerror · 08-03-2014 2:57am

Alba Gu Brath!!!!

First Up · 08-03-2014 8:07am

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Really if I hadn't wanted to answer you I would have ignored you totally believe it or not some of us have a life away from the internet. Really how far up your arse is your head

So are you going to clarify what you mean by "mess some places have made" etc. or not?

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-03-2014 8:29am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I did. And not only did I read it I even highlighted a section. Didn't you see it?

You read it yet you fail to spot that it was MMF who said it was a 'rubbish, broken & corrupt union'?

fundi · 08-03-2014 2:49pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you have anything to back that up? Last time I checked the United Kingdom was in possession of
The most powerful Military in Western Europe.

The Second most powerful navy in the world.

International military bases and a constant military presence in every continent in the world.

One of three financial centres in the world, London. The other two being New York and Tokyo.

A permanent seat on the UN security council.

Historical and familial connections with many powerful countries including Canada and Australia.

A stable currency.

The ability and opportunity to project their culture across the entire planet through the dominance of the English language.

A permanent stock of armed Nuclear weapons.

Closest operational ally of the world's only remaining Superpower which guarantees British protection from outside threats without having to sacrifice their economy to build up a needlessly large military.

All that combined together sounds like a Great Power to me, I don't see a broken Union.

Well said. Scotland has enjoyed all the advantages of the above, and continues to enjoy these advantages. If it wants to lose the £ sterling and take the Scottish flag out of the Union Jack, it will be a poorer place.

Iwasfrozen · 08-03-2014 3:14pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You read it yet you fail to spot that it was MMF who said it was a 'rubbish, broken & corrupt union'?

Do you not agree with him? If not then fair enough I took you up wrong.

sfakiaman · 18-03-2014 8:33am

For those genuinely interested in Scottish politics this is a very interesting series of programs from BBC Alba (with subtitles).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqQnj0LKlQ&list=PLiH5yyuKidEaqK_Zkvh2AAu2XzE90h7Pv

alaimacerc · 21-03-2014 1:09am

fundi wrote: »

If [Scotland] wants to lose the £ sterling

It doesn't. If you recall, it's the "no" campaign that's threatening that. (And in any event, can't really do anything to prevent "sterlingisation" if all else fails.)

and take the Scottish flag out of the Union Jack, it will be a poorer place.

Nor does Scotland claim exclusive copyright to that, as a quick squint at the vexillology of Australia, New Zealand, and Hawaii (just off the top) will confirm. Perhaps YMTS "undo defacement of the saltire", if you want to bandy heraldry?

redtracy · 19-09-2014 6:12am

Ifye ask me ...yewan mcgregor andy murray and black pudding and itchy skirts thats about d only gud came outa scotland so ...but if it meant they cud CLOSE DOWN FASLANE....
For that hope and that hope alone for me i think they should make theor own decisions n have their very own scotland yard and kids and tryciles n cjips n goin soccer trainging hey one mire gud thinf the celtic manager hes the head off nielie barnes in fermoy

redtracy · 19-09-2014 6:15am

redtracy wrote: »

Ifye ask me ...yewan mcgregor andy murray and black pudding and itchy skirts thats about d only gud came outa scotland so ...but if it meant they cud CLOSE DOWN FASLANE....
For that hope and that hope alone for me i think they should make theor own decisions n have their very own scotland yard and kids and tryciles n cjips n goin soccer trainging hey one mire gud thinf the celtic manager hes the head off nielie barnes in fermoy

And stone thrower rallies and parties..and tHE HIGHLANDS

K-9 · 19-09-2014 10:45am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How could the break up of a regional great power like the United Kingdom be anything but destabilising?It won't happen though. It's questionable whether or not Scotland is economically viable nevermind Wales or Northern Ireland.

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Scottish Independence

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