Scottish Independence

Cathal O

So....With the impending referendum on scotland upcoming, im asking what do the general population on boards think of it. Are they in favour of it, against or not bothered either way.

Personally I am in favour of it, every country should have the power to govern themselves, govern their own defece and tax affairs, inflate / deflate their currency (or decide to stay in/ withdraw from the euro in our case). With scotland having its own say without external / english intervention will lead to the people of scotland truely having the last word on what route the country should be.

But as ever the decision of the people is the last word and should be accepted whatever the result

ALSO : I have no idea how to add a poll

nesf

Cathal O wrote: »

ALSO : I have no idea how to add a poll

Polls aren't allowed in this forum, so you wouldn't see an option to add one.

Manach

Post-independence Scotland might then have to deal with further separatist with parts of the Highlands or Orkneys (which historically have been different entities from the Lowlands) seeking greater autonomy from Edinburgh.

Nodin

Cathal O wrote: »

So....With the impending referendum on scotland upcoming, im asking what do the general population on boards think of it. Are they in favour of it, against or not bothered either way.

Personally I am in favour of it, every country should have the power to govern themselves, govern their own defece and tax affairs, inflate / deflate their currency (or decide to stay in/ withdraw from the euro in our case). With scotland having its own say without external / english intervention will lead to the people of scotland truely having the last word on what route the country should be.

But as ever the decision of the people is the last word and should be accepted whatever the result

ALSO : I have no idea how to add a poll

They'd be better off slowly accruing more autonomy until they are de facto independent and going for it then, IMO. Softly, softly, catchee beastie etc.

deise go deo

Saor Alba.


I hope Scotland gets its Independance. The SNP have shown that scottish people have what it takes to Govern Scotland effectivly.

The one problem I see with it is that it may lead to a strenghtning of Scottish Unionism, and as a side effect, Ulster Unionism. However Scottish independance would cause such a crisis in Northern Unionism that it would be worth it in the long run IMO.

Cathal O

Nodin wrote: »

They'd be better off slowly accruing more autonomy until they are de facto independent and going for it then, IMO. Softly, softly, catchee beastie etc.

They couldnt be going more slowly....they have their own parliament akin to home rule, they also have their own legal system, the last barrier is mainly the issues over self security and tax issues, this referendum will ultimately decide this

Nodin

Cathal O wrote: »

They couldnt be going more slowly....they have their own parliament akin to home rule, they also have their own legal system, the last barrier is mainly the issues over self security and tax issues, this referendum will ultimately decide this

....thats where I think they'll flounder though. Anything that hasn't been devolved and shown to have worked will be used to scaremonger and cause people to baulk.

serfboard

Nodin wrote: »

They'd be better off slowly accruing more autonomy until they are de facto independent and going for it then, IMO. Softly, softly, catchee beastie etc.

Agree.

Nodin wrote: »

....thats where I think they'll flounder though. Anything that hasn't been devolved and shown to have worked will be used to scaremonger and cause people to baulk.

That's why the referendum won't be held until near the end of this parliament. The amount of scaremongering will be savage. While the SNP are in the majority, that is not necessarily translating into support for independence (or so the opinion polls say). The SNP will have to do some job to sell it to people.

Scofflaw

Manach wrote: »

Post-independence Scotland might then have to deal with further separatist with parts of the Highlands or Orkneys (which historically have been different entities from the Lowlands) seeking greater autonomy from Edinburgh.

That was the great doubt nationalists Scottish friends of mine had about independence - their view was that by and large Westminster at least treated all of Scotland equally.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Kev_ps3

I would like to see them get Independence. The English shouldn't have control over any people considering their appalling misrule over the century's.

Iwasfrozen

Cathal O wrote: »

So....With the impending referendum on scotland upcoming, im asking what do the general population on boards think of it. Are they in favour of it, against or not bothered either way.

Personally I am in favour of it, every country should have the power to govern themselves, govern their own defece and tax affairs, inflate / deflate their currency (or decide to stay in/ withdraw from the euro in our case). With scotland having its own say without external / english intervention will lead to the people of scotland truely having the last word on what route the country should be.

But as ever the decision of the people is the last word and should be accepted whatever the result

ALSO : I have no idea how to add a poll

I'm going to go out against popular opinion here and say I hope they don't. The break-up of the United Kingdom could have very serious consequences for regional stability.

Cathal O wrote: »

With scotland having its own say without external / english intervention will lead to the people of scotland truely having the last word on what route the country should be.

This sentence struck me. English intervention is not external intervention. No more then any federalised state. Which is what Britain pretty much is now, federalised in all but name.

Knight990

If Scotland did go independent, I think it would be one of the most important things to happen in these Isles for quite a while, especially for Northern Ireland - because the independence would have been gained through peaceful means, showing that it is possible to gain your freedom without arms.

Lemming

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm going to go out against popular opinion here and say I hope they don't. The break-up of the United Kingdom could have very serious consequences for regional stability.

I'll echo the sentiment of hoping they don't. I've a lot of Scottish relatives, family living in Scotland, etc. and I spend quite a bit of time there in any given year and nobody that I have ever talked to about independence, especially in the context of the SNP has left me with any impression other than whilst sentiment being nice, there are far more pressing issues to deal with, and that there is sod all faith in the SNP & its leadership in Alec Salmond.

Richard

Knight990 wrote: »

If Scotland did go independent, I think it would be one of the most important things to happen in these Isles for quite a while, especially for Northern Ireland - because the independence would have been gained through peaceful means, showing that it is possible to gain your freedom without arms.

What is this "freedom" you speak of? The majority of Scots already see themselves as free. Freedom and independence are different concepts.

This also applies to NI.

Knight990

Richard wrote: »

What is this "freedom" you speak of? The majority of Scots already see themselves as free. Freedom and independence are different concepts.

This also applies to NI.

Total legislative freedom.

irishh_bob

Cathal O wrote: »

So....With the impending referendum on scotland upcoming, im asking what do the general population on boards think of it. Are they in favour of it, against or not bothered either way.

Personally I am in favour of it, every country should have the power to govern themselves, govern their own defece and tax affairs, inflate / deflate their currency (or decide to stay in/ withdraw from the euro in our case). With scotland having its own say without external / english intervention will lead to the people of scotland truely having the last word on what route the country should be.

But as ever the decision of the people is the last word and should be accepted whatever the result

ALSO : I have no idea how to add a poll

the media has always over estimated the desire for independance in scotland but while thier has been an undoubted increase in support for the SNP , i wouldnt put the YES vote any higher than 30 % in any potential referendum

getzls

Alex Salmon said after the last elections he would not be looking a referendum for about 9 yrs. With this recession he knows they can't afford to go alone. Of course they would turn back to the UK and EU to bail them out if things got sticky in the future. Bit like Ireland.:D

steddyeddy

The only answer I could give is indepedence is a good idea if the majority of scottish people want independence.

Rebelheart

serfboard wrote: »

The amount of scaremongering will be savage.

This, very, very much this. British unionists will claim everything under the sun to scare weaker people out of voting for Scottish freedom. Just like they did in Ireland in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Fr Tod Umptious

deise go deo wrote: »

Saor Alba.


I hope Scotland gets its Independance. The SNP have shown that scottish people have what it takes to Govern Scotland effectivly.

The one problem I see with it is that it may lead to a strenghtning of Scottish Unionism, and as a side effect, Ulster Unionism. However Scottish independance would cause such a crisis in Northern Unionism that it would be worth it in the long run IMO.

Knight990 wrote: »

If Scotland did go independent, I think it would be one of the most important things to happen in these Isles for quite a while, especially for Northern Ireland - because the independence would have been gained through peaceful means, showing that it is possible to gain your freedom without arms.

People here really don't give a damn about Scottish Independence, they only see it as some sort of a proxy to undermine the current situation in Northern Ireland.

Knight990 - I'm not really sure than many in NI actually want 'freedom', most are happy to be governed as part of the UK and a sizeable number would prefre to be governed as part of a united Ireland.

Personally I have always believed that an independent Scotland would have a negative effect of the Republic of Ireland's ability to be competitive in attracting foregin investment.
Scotland could control their own fiscal policy to attract investment, they have superior infrastructure, natural resources, plus they have a huge market on their door step in England.

Having such a competitor so close would not be to our advantage.

Then again I'll leave it up to the Scots to decide their fate.

Rebelheart

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The break-up of the United Kingdom could have very serious consequences for regional stability.

This is the sort of scaremongering that is typical of the rightwing/yellow press in Britain. In a democratic world we are expected to believe that if the Scots choose independence then this will have "serious consequences for regional stability". From whom? Democrats?

Or are British unionists again going to threaten army mutiny, armed resistance by citizens and much more à la 1913-1914 just because democracy overrules them once more?

LaBaguette

Just being curious, does anyone here think that total independence is only a good thing down to a certain size ?

I'm used to read stuff like "people should govern themselves" and the like. But how do you define people ? As someone pointed out, you could argue that Highlands and Lowlands have cultures and peoples that are different enough not to be part of the same country.

I do think that at some point, federalism in one form or another is a better option. Even though Scotland already has a fair amount of self-gov., perhaps devolving even more would be preferable to independence ?

Iwasfrozen

Rebelheart wrote: »

This is the sort of scaremongering that is typical of the rightwing/yellow press in Britain. In a democratic world we are expected to believe that if the Scots choose independence then this will have "serious consequences for regional stability". From whom? Democrats?

Or are British unionists again going to threaten army mutiny, armed resistance by citizens and much more à la 1913-1914 just because democracy overrules them once more?

What's scaremongering to suggest Scotland leaving the union is a threat to regional stability? If Scotland got independence it would only encourage nationalists in Wales and perhaps even Cronwall to push for independence. This would not only undermine the United Kingdoms role as a great power on the world stage but would also undermine Northern Ireland's position as a constitute part of the United Kingdom closer to home. Partition is not the answer Rebelheart, I thought you of all people would agree with that.

Besides even discussing this is pointless because the majority of Scottish people are rightly happy with their position in the United Kingdom.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's scaremongering to suggest Scotland leaving the union is a threat to regional stability? If Scotland got independence it would only encourage nationalists in Wales and perhaps even Cronwall to push for independence. This would not only undermine the United Kingdoms role as a great power on the world stage but would also undermine Northern Ireland's position as a constitute part of the United Kingdom closer to home. Partition is not the answer Rebelheart, I thought you of all people would agree with that.

Besides even discussing this is pointless because the majority of Scottish people are rightly happy with their position in the United Kingdom.

It is rather ridiculus to suggest that the Scots democratically choosing Independance from the UK would destabilise the region. It may accelerate political change and lead to the further brake up of the UK, But that is far from the same thing as destabelising the region. The vastly more likely result is the breakup of the UK into a number of smaller stable nation states.

deise go deo

LaBaguette wrote: »

Just being curious, does anyone here think that total independence is only a good thing down to a certain size ?

I'm used to read stuff like "people should govern themselves" and the like. But how do you define people ? As someone pointed out, you could argue that Highlands and Lowlands have cultures and peoples that are different enough not to be part of the same country.

I do think that at some point, federalism in one form or another is a better option. Even though Scotland already has a fair amount of self-gov., perhaps devolving even more would be preferable to independence ?

To be honest with you, In my opinion I think Nation states are only a good thing up to a certain size. The Larger the state the more inherent problems in my opinion, Becoming involved in a war becomes more likely, the voice of the individual citizen becomes less and less consequential, much more likely to have internal Ethnic tentions.

Of course there will always be exceptions to that, but over all I would prefer to live in a small nation than a large.

Knight990

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Knight990 - I'm not really sure than many in NI actually want 'freedom', most are happy to be governed as part of the UK and a sizeable number would prefre to be governed as part of a united Ireland.

It's not so much whether they want 'freedom' or not, that's a debate for another day - what I meant was that it might show those who would usually resort to arms that there is a another way, that's all.

It wouldn't solve every problem, but it would change how certain kinds of people view the situation I reckon.

Fratton Fred

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I would like to see them get Independence. The English shouldn't have control over any people considering their appalling misrule over the century's.

That's a ridiculous statement.

There is absolutely nothing the English have done that wasn't with the support of the Scots. The British Empire would never have happened if it wasn't for the Scots and the Scots were more than responsible for their fair share of misrule.

Tbh, I can't see an independant Scotland yet. Outside of a few Glasgow council estates there isn't really the appetite for it. The SNP benefited from a dislike for Labour and the Libs due to recent national politics and the Tories have never been big north of the border.

If there was a referendum tomorrow it would fail miserably, unless that is they asked the English.

KeithAFC

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement.

There is absolutely nothing the English have done that wasn't with the support of the Scots. The British Empire would never have happened if it wasn't for the Scots and the Scots were more than responsible for their fair share of misrule.

Tbh, I can't see an independant Scotland yet. Outside of a few Glasgow council estates there isn't really the appetite for it. The SNP benefited from a dislike for Labour and the Libs due to recent national politics and the Tories have never been big north of the border.

If there was a referendum tomorrow it would fail miserably, unless that is they asked the English.

It won't happen. This is a completely non story to be honest and i think rather exaggerated. The Union will be around for many years to come.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement.

There is absolutely nothing the English have done that wasn't with the support of the Scots. The British Empire would never have happened if it wasn't for the Scots and the Scots were more than responsible for their fair share of misrule.

Tbh, I can't see an independant Scotland yet. Outside of a few Glasgow council estates there isn't really the appetite for it. The SNP benefited from a dislike for Labour and the Libs due to recent national politics and the Tories have never been big north of the border.

If there was a referendum tomorrow it would fail miserably, unless that is they asked the English.

I do think a independence ref wouldnt pass tomorrow but just wondering what is the feelings of the english regarding scottish independence?

Cathal O

KeithAFC wrote: »

It won't happen. This is a completely non story to be honest and i think rather exaggerated. The Union will be around for many years to come.

An impending referendum that WILL happen is not a "non story", even if it does pass and remain part of the Uk the Union will be nothing but in name.
The future of the union will not be realisticon the ground. Independant parliaments of the Welsh, N.I and Scotlan will only gain more power in the future, and with talk of Taxing powers being given to scotland themselves, the union may soon become obsolete

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing the English have done that wasn't with the support of the Scots.

The Acts of Union was done without the support of the Scots.

I think Scotland under the leadership of the SNP has shown that it's more than capable of Governing itself.

Scofflaw wrote: »

That was the great doubt nationalists Scottish friends of mine had about independence - their view was that by and large Westminster at least treated all of Scotland equally.

cordially,
Scofflaw

This image of the last elections are pretty telling of the widespread support for the SNP and their decision-making across Scotland.

I'm not sure what 'nationalists' you've befriended in Scotland, but I can most certainly assure you - the few friends I have, meeting your description have no faith whatsoever in Westminster.

With regards to the OP - I would welcome an independent and more democratic Scotland. As it stands, Scottish MP's hold about 9% of sway in Westminster. The parliament itself is largely controlled by England, and if you take into consideration that the UK isn't a 'single country', but rather a collective of countries and states - then it is quite appropriate to view England as the weight of the Union, and the rest as tag-alongs.

I think Scotland could most certainly be a successful independent country. They have a great Government, and a remarkably intelligent society.