Social Manners - what are people's opinions?

Imhof Tank · 05-03-2014 12:53PM

sopretty wrote: »

Imhof Tank. Could you not have politely reminded her about the rule, rather than lifting the poor woman out of it?? You think roaring, making a woman cry, insulting her intelligence and giving her the finger is acceptable behaviour? I think I'm currently mumbling the same expletive that she was under my breath!!!

The thing is she was goading me initially with her foot on the edge of the seat, but not actually on it. That was already causing tension, and then she decided to cross the line. There is no way a reasonable person could have done what she did inadvertently - she was just disrespecting the seat, the train and whoever had to come in there and sit on it after her.

I don't think it would have been possible to politely "remind" this person or anyone else with their feet up of the rule.

OK you might be mumbling an expletive in my direction, but do you throw your mucky boots up on Dart seats?

Tiddlypeeps · 05-03-2014 12:53PM

gramar wrote: »

Do any coffee shops or lunchtime restaurants that anyone visits have a policy that stops people reserving seats?

I've never seen it. Most would have a rule that you have to order something, so you can't block up a table for the day if you haven't ordered something recently. To stop people ordering one coffee and sitting on their laptop for the day. I don't recall ever seeing a rule that you can't grab a table while the person you are with orders tho.

gugleguy · 05-03-2014 12:55PM

Not a few Irish people seem to apply a somewhat ambiguous equation in applying or ignoring social manners. I am guessing it may go something like this:

relative to the number of people in each opposing individual:

Individual A does something unmannerly in Individual B's perception, and Individual B points this out.

The reaction of Individual A will depend on:
Either A is with a group or another and B on their own / vica versa. The reaction does NOT depend any more how well dressed or cut and polished Individual A looks. He may be an alpha male type, wanting to be as arrogant as the rest of his peers that are with him.

Or

Individual A generally does not give a s**t about others. And is well able to stand up for themselves against others whether in a group or otherwise - this was seen on Dublin Bus.

My 2 cents.

sopretty · 05-03-2014 12:55PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

The thing is she was goading me initially with her foot on the edge of the seat, but not actually on it. That was already causing tension, and then she decided to cross the line. There is no way a reasonable person could have done what she did inadvertently - she was just disrespecting the seat, the train and whoever had to come in there and sit on it after her.

I don't think it would have been possible to politely "remind" this person or anyone else with their feet up of the rule.

OK you might be mumbling an expletive in my direction, but do you throw your mucky boots up on Dart seats?

Thankfully, my days of the DORT are long behind me. However, I can tell you where I'd like to stick my mucky boot if I ever had the displeasure of encountering you!!

Katgurl · 05-03-2014 12:55PM

emmabrighton wrote: »

Lateness is definitely an Irish thing. I have to work hard to not be late. Even when I was in school, I was always 10 mins late for the first class every morning. I always left myself 5 mins to get to school even though the walk took 15 mins.

Actually I found the further the distance I had to travel, the less late I would actually be.

15 minute walk to school = 10 mins late
1 hour journey on bus to college = early/on time
15 minute drive to work = 10 mins late

In my last job, my dutch boss just had to get used to it. Lots of Mediterranean/Irish employees... always 15 mins late. The Swedish, German and Dutch employees... always politely 5 mins early

Then there's the other side (being early isn't always welcome). I invited a gang around for dinner at say 7pm. I was frantically trying to get everything finished at 6.45 expecting people to arrive between 7.10 and 7.30 when the doorbell rings. Galway-man-from-Sweden standing there, I immediately thought "why is he early, couldnt he have had a coffee across the road?"

geckovision · 05-03-2014 12:55PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Couple of weeks ago, got on a not too crowded Dart about 9.30 am. I sat on the outside of a seat with a mid-20s girl by the window (casually dressed, had one of those security passes on a string around her neck, I took her for a call centre worker possibly) and a older guy opposite me with no one beside him.

I could see immediately that the girl had the edge of her shoe on the leading edge of the empty seat opposite her. That annoyed me straight away and I got the sense all 3 of us were focusing on that foot to see what she do with it.
After 2 stations up went the foot and I exploded “SEATS ARE NOT FOR FEET” (might possibly have said that a little too loud with my ear phones in), pointing at the sign and illustration on the window. Guy opposite me seemed to think this was hilarious.

Anyway yer one took down her feet immediately, turned to me, held her face 6 inches from mine and we proceeded to have a sort of staring contest for a good 10 seconds until she looked away and that was that I thought. I then saw that she was wiping her eyes and seemed to be sobbing for the next 20 minutes. This went on until Tara Street where she gathered up her bags to get off, and then we had an exchange which was pretty much word for word:

Her – I just want to say “congratulations” on reading the sign
Me- No problem, I thought you couldn’t read
Her – You are smarter than you look
Me – Thank you!
Her – (mouths silent expletive)
Me – (raises middle finger)
Her - (over the top ironic friendly wave to me) (she was off the carriage and gesturing at me through the window from the platform at this stage)

So what do you make of that? She was 1000% in the wrong over the feet on seats thing and had to know that. She basically went postal anyway so was there something about how I challenged her? Or was it just her. My opinion at the time was that she somehow felt that I would be slower to challenge a skinhead or a junkie for example (which is probably true in fairness) and it enraged her that I felt confident enough to confront her, like I was the one disrespecting her?? I am male, mid 40s, suit & tie combo, by the way.

You both sound like a pair of muppets in this case.

Imhof Tank · 05-03-2014 12:56PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Why is this relevant?

To provide context. People's reactions would be different if I was a 70 year old woman for example.

gugleguy · 05-03-2014 12:56PM

jester77 wrote: »

Do you really think it is ok to block a seat while I just stand there?

Increasingly, Irish people do think its ok.

Tiddlypeeps · 05-03-2014 12:57PM

jester77 wrote: »

If there are no free seats, then it's tough sh*t, but if I pick up my order and you are blocking one of the last seats in the cafe then I will be sitting beside you. Do you really think it is ok to block a seat while I just stand there?

I expect you to do whatever you would normally do when there are no tables. For me that would be not order in the first place. You took a risk ordering when there were no free tables, that was a stupid thing to do.

jester77 · 05-03-2014 01:00PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I expect you to do whatever you would normally do when there are no tables. For me that would be not order in the first place. You took a risk ordering when there were no free tables, that was a stupid thing to do.

And what would you do when I sit in the seat you are blocking?

Santa Cruz · 05-03-2014 01:00PM

What's the issue with taking a seat? Are we all to line up until the Coffee Fuhrer says we can sit down?

Maybe that's why jester77 enjoyed living in Germany. Some people like domination

GenieOz · 05-03-2014 01:00PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Couple of weeks ago, got on a not too crowded Dart about 9.30 am. I sat on the outside of a seat with a mid-20s girl by the window (casually dressed, had one of those security passes on a string around her neck, I took her for a call centre worker possibly) and a older guy opposite me with no one beside him.

I could see immediately that the girl had the edge of her shoe on the leading edge of the empty seat opposite her. That annoyed me straight away and I got the sense all 3 of us were focusing on that foot to see what she do with it.
After 2 stations up went the foot and I exploded “SEATS ARE NOT FOR FEET” (might possibly have said that a little too loud with my ear phones in), pointing at the sign and illustration on the window. Guy opposite me seemed to think this was hilarious.

Anyway yer one took down her feet immediately, turned to me, held her face 6 inches from mine and we proceeded to have a sort of staring contest for a good 10 seconds until she looked away and that was that I thought. I then saw that she was wiping her eyes and seemed to be sobbing for the next 20 minutes. This went on until Tara Street where she gathered up her bags to get off, and then we had an exchange which was pretty much word for word:

Her – I just want to say “congratulations” on reading the sign
Me- No problem, I thought you couldn’t read
Her – You are smarter than you look
Me – Thank you!
Her – (mouths silent expletive)
Me – (raises middle finger)
Her - (over the top ironic friendly wave to me) (she was off the carriage and gesturing at me through the window from the platform at this stage)

So what do you make of that? She was 1000% in the wrong over the feet on seats thing and had to know that. She basically went postal anyway so was there something about how I challenged her? Or was it just her. My opinion at the time was that she somehow felt that I would be slower to challenge a skinhead or a junkie for example (which is probably true in fairness) and it enraged her that I felt confident enough to confront her, like I was the one disrespecting her?? I am male, mid 40s, suit & tie combo, by the way.

You sound like a right cûnt to be honest.

OldNotWIse · 05-03-2014 01:01PM

irish_goat wrote: »

What if they're by themselves? If there were no other spare seats and someone was sitting at a table by themselves while a friend was queuing up I'd plonk myself down.

Was at a graduation once and a woman had "saved" 5 seats using her bag, coat, jumper and umbrella whilst her friends were outside presumably still finishing their drinks. There were no other spare seats left so we told her where to go.

Sitting at a table with someone else is clearly a necessity if the cafe is full, but why would you sit at a table where someone is waiting for someone else, when there are likely other free seats at other tables with other people who are, you know, not waiting for someone in the queue?

Newsflash: passive aggressive Irish person makes point and shows the world who is boss by being awkward and taking a seat that will be used by someone else in 5 minutes instead of taking one at another table beside someone else who is not waiting for company

OldNotWIse · 05-03-2014 01:04PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

To provide context. People's reactions would be different if I was a 70 year old woman for example.

Perhaps...if we were prone to prejudgment based on whether one was a skinhead or a suit from killiney...

Pinch Flat · 05-03-2014 01:04PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

What would you have done if there were no tables?

I don't get this at all. If there were feck all tables and not likely to be any free when you get your order why the hell would you queue up in the first place?

I don't go to coffee shops alone, don't really see the point so I'd never book at table with my bag. But when I do go with someone else I make sure I have a table before ordering. I'm not gonna spend a fortune on a drink and possibly a snack when there might be no tables when I get to the end of the queue. That to me just seems like a really stupid thing to do. You'll be left standing like an eejit, coffee in hand, waiting for a table to free up. It could be cold by the time you get a seat and you won't be able to relax and chat with your friend while frantically looking for a sign that someone is about to get up.

I had no idea this was considered bad manners by anyone and to be honest I don't really care. If someone asked me to move while I sit at a table and wait for my friend to return with our order then I'd tell them where to go.

Demanding that someone move like that because of some rule you made up in your head seems like the absolute hight of bad manners and self centeredness.

There was one seat available when I reached the top of the queue - it was directly behind me and, being the last to be served, it's fair to say that when you turn around you can sit there. Not someone pulling a fast one behind.

It's not be about being a queue-Nazi - they're unwritten rules / norms that become so common place that you shouldn't have to assert when they're broken. A lot of places have signs up saying 'please order your food before seating', so this perhaps reinforces this.

Social manners would say you queue up and take the available seat - in my case the last one. If someone comes in behind me and the cafe is full, perhaps they should go somewhere else. In fact, I had done this about 10 minutes earlier when another coffee shop on Dawson Street was packed with no seating. Looked in, turned around and found another shop. No drama, huffing, puffing or tutting. Just a fact of life.

I don't see it as being self-centred - I'm far from it. I just expect these social manners to be more prevalent. We're all different I suppose.

OldNotWIse · 05-03-2014 01:06PM

jester77 wrote: »

And what would you do when I sit in the seat you are blocking?

I'd love to start screaming, "No touching under clothes! No touching under clothes!" and rock backwards and forwards chewimg my fingertips.

Ray Palmer · 05-03-2014 01:06PM

Back in the day when there was only one McDonald's in Ireland they had a major problem with this. They had to signs all over the place pointing out you can't reserve tables. They eventually just had to keep a member of staff on the stairs stopping people going up without food. Not sure if they still do it.

It is an incredibly rude thing to do in my eyes. Basically saying I deserve special treatment. Only acceptable when there are plenty of spaces about.

Tiddlypeeps · 05-03-2014 01:07PM

jester77 wrote: »

And what would you do when I sit in the seat you are blocking?

I've never had it happen, but I only go to coffee shops a handful to times a year. I'm not really sure how I'd react. I would definitely consider it one of the rudest things. If there were more than 2 seats and I was only with 1 other person I might just stay put and ignore you, it depends on how much your actions annoyed me. Would you really enjoy your coffee after doing that?

I refuse to believe your attitude towards this is common, it's crazy to expect a group of people to order with any certainty of a table.

Katgurl · 05-03-2014 01:07PM

I can see where the OP's frustration is coming from though. In other countries (like Germany) systems work really well and people don't take a telling-off personally.

But here it's different and why should everyone have to adapt to your way?

I lived in washington a few years ago and travelled by metro everywhere. When the train pulled into station nobody would approach the doors until everyone had alighted. This is different to rush hour darts in Monkstown when it's every man for himself. My mum came to visit and was ready at the doors when train pulled in, a man alighted and ripped into her for not standing back and giving space. She was embarrassed and I was furious. I said "would you mind calming down, she's not a criminal, she hasn't been here before and is anxious to get on the train" the man then stormed off still ranting about 'manners'

Sometimes the other person just thinks what they are doing is acceptable.

Imhof Tank · 05-03-2014 01:08PM

Katgurl wrote: »

@imhof tank, that is the most ridiculous thing I've read in ages, what were you doing pointing at the sign and shouting? You probably really rattled her with that sort of reaction.

People on the dart do put thei feet on seats so her individual behaviour was not really that shocking and did not warrant that reaction.

I've had to keep my recently broken leg elevated in cafes and at the cinema. I've just informed a nearby staff member and apologised, they're always really nice about it. If a customer came over and yelled at me about (ironically) my manners I would feel pretty upset.

Honestly I was just maddened by the casual way she was flouting the rule. I didn't really have time to think and certainly didn't expect it to turn out like it did. I just thought she would put her feet down sheepishly.

The bit bolded above really surprises me if representative of peoples' views

conorhal · 05-03-2014 01:09PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Agree with most of your post, and I think Irish people are lacking somewhat in this regard. A lot of us tend to be on the passive aggressive side, and will expect dirty looks (or venting on boards/metroherald) to solve the problem. I would move my bag if a bus was filling up, but if I didnt see that it was filling, I'd expect you to just say, "excuse me" and point to the bag. I'd be p1ssed with someone for touching my personal belongings without asking, and would probably tell you as much. A bag on a seat justifies a request for it to be moved, it does not justify a stranger pawing at it imo.

I've seen it done, in Germany also, it must be a German thing.
They tend to take the attitude that you're the one that's been rude in the first place and thus they owe you no courtesy, they'll simply plonk it on the floor where is should have been in the first place.
It's one of those cultural misunderstanding, different nations, different etiquitte kind of things.
The Irish have always been somewhat laxidasical about minor rule infringement, but generally we're pretty kind and courteous to each other because we are rather then because the rest of the bus will judge you.

Pinch Flat · 05-03-2014 01:10PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Back in the day when there was only one McDonald's in Ireland they had a major problem with this. They had to signs all over the place pointing out you can't reserve tables. They eventually just had to keep a member of staff on the stairs stopping people going up without food. Not sure if they still do it.

It is an incredibly rude thing to do in my eyes. Basically saying I deserve special treatment. Only acceptable when there are plenty of spaces about.

Irish people also have a huge problem cleaning up after themselves. Again it's the 'me-me' attitude. Eat in a McDonald's outside of Ireland and you'll see how tidy they are after people - they will happily dispose of the rubbish in the bins provided. Not here - crap abandoned everywhere. It is an interesting insight into our psyche.

As for cinerma's - well, I've yet to be here when the lights go on and it looks like a gang of 7 year olds have been there - complete mess. Actually quite embarrassing.

OldNotWIse · 05-03-2014 01:10PM

conorhal wrote: »

I've seen it done, in Germany also, it must be a German thing.
They tend to take the attitude that you're the one that's been rude in the first place and thus they owe you no courtesy, they'll simply plonk it on the floor where is should have been in the first place.
It's one of those cultural misunderstanding, different nations, different etiquitte kind of things.
The Irish have always been somewhat laxidasical about minor rule infringement, but generally we're pretty kind and courteous to each other because we are rather then because the rest of the bus will judge you.

On the floor? Er...I'll keep it on my lap if thats all the same :eek: I usually keep it there anyway, but if not it will be swiftly moved when the seat is needed. Still, I pity the fool who puts their paws on my belongings and puts them on the floor. Yack :pac:

conorhal · 05-03-2014 01:14PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

On the floor? Er...I'll keep it on my lap if thats all the same :eek: I usually keep it there anyway, but if not it will be swiftly moved when the seat is needed. Still, I pity the fool who puts their paws on my belongings and puts them on the floor. Yack :pac:

Well perhaps not 'where it belongs' so much as where it's less likely to be construed as assault. If they're really annoyed though they might just take your bag and jam it straight into your discourtious lap :pac:

Tiddlypeeps · 05-03-2014 01:16PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

There was one seat available when I reached the top of the queue - it was directly behind me and, being the last to be served, it's fair to say that when you turn around you can sit there. Not someone pulling a fast one behind.

It's not be about being a queue-Nazi - they're unwritten rules / norms that become so common place that you shouldn't have to assert when they're broken. A lot of places have signs up saying 'please order your food before seating', so this perhaps reinforces this.

Social manners would say you queue up and take the available seat - in my case the last one. If someone comes in behind me and the cafe is full, perhaps they should go somewhere else. In fact, I had done this about 10 minutes earlier when another coffee shop on Dawson Street was packed with no seating. Looked in, turned around and found another shop. No drama, huffing, puffing or tutting. Just a fact of life.

I don't see it as being self-centred - I'm far from it. I just expect these social manners to be more prevalent. We're all different I suppose.

I'll conceded taking the last table with a bag when there is a cue is a bit cheeky. Not sure I'd go as far as to ask her to move, but I won't tell you that you were wrong to do it.

But Pinch Flat is on about is people who are in a group, where one person grabs a table, regardless of if it was the last table when they sat down or not. That attitude is just mental.

Red21 · 05-03-2014 01:17PM

Imhof Tank wrote: »

To provide context. People's reactions would be different if I was a 70 year old woman for example.

And your reaction would have been differant, had it been a middle aged construction worker for example

OldNotWIse · 05-03-2014 01:20PM

conorhal wrote: »

Well perhaps not 'where it belongs' so much as where it's less likely to be construed as assault. If they're really annoyed though they might just take your bag and jam it straight into your discourtious lap :pac:

So long as they dont mind walking the rest of the way I suppose.

I remember being on a bus once and a load of kn*ckers had a fight over the wheelchair area. Priceless. People squabbling about buggies and trollies and kids and oap's. Morons in their Paul's Boutique and Juicy Couture velvet tracksuits trying to demand special treatment cause they had a buggy, aul wans beatin' them out of the way because they had trolleys and weren't afraid to use them god damn! I was on the way back from the vets with a feral cat who, at that very moment, decided to do her best Tasmanian devil and screeched very suddenly and very loudly and then the box started hopping and hissing. Well you've never seen a pack of sc*mbags shut up so fast.:D:D

Imhof Tank · 05-03-2014 01:21PM

Red21 wrote: »

And your reaction would have been differant, had it been a middle aged construction worker for example

I think I would have challenged a middle aged construction worker

How would you have reacted? Plenty here seem to think feet on seats is no big deal. Sad.

conorhal · 05-03-2014 01:22PM

Posted this pet hate in R&R

Dear teenagers,
If sombody says, 'excuse me', that roughly translates into human as; 'please can you move so that I can get by to get off the bus'.
NOT:
'Could you stare at me blankly and unmoving until I'm forced to press my way through a crush of gormless idiots cluttering up isle (despite there being plenty of free seats upstairs), feeling for all the world like some kind of paedo, frottage fetishist from the Tokyo underground'...

Oh, and don't you dare shoot me a filthy if I 'accidentally' step on your foot as I force my way to the front, just because I might as well be invisible to you, doesn't mean I can pass through you like a frigging ghost or something.

Tiddlypeeps · 05-03-2014 01:22PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Irish people also have a huge problem cleaning up after themselves. Again it's the 'me-me' attitude. Eat in a McDonald's outside of Ireland and you'll see how tidy they are after people - they will happily dispose of the rubbish in the bins provided. Not here - crap abandoned everywhere. It is an interesting insight into our psyche.

As for cinerma's - well, I've yet to be here when the lights go on and it looks like a gang of 7 year olds have been there - complete mess. Actually quite embarrassing.

This is load of crap. I believed this until recently when I visited Italy. I was in a hurry so I visited a McDonalds. Plenty of people just abandoned tables covered in crap. Plenty of people cleaned up after themselves too, including myself but that's the same over here.

I find it funny that you criticise this "me-me" attitude when you would be perfectly happy inserting yourself into the middle of another persons social interaction at a coffee shop just because of your sense of entitlement to a table. :rolleyes:

Social Manners - what are people's opinions?

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