A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

byhookorbycrook · 04-03-2014 10:50PM

in England, there is time taken from the school week -ie tuition time -to do paperwork . In Ireland you do all of that on your own time, just like training teams, going to quizzes/debates/school tours, attend concerts, sacrament ceremonies, many in-service courses and so on, none of which count towards HRA/Croke Park.

Teachers are entitled to a minimum of 10 per cent of their time-tabled teaching time for planning, preparation and assessment. Canterbury headteacher Mr Din said: “We haven’t decreased teaching time in any way.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456256/School-shuts-early-as-teachers-plan-lesson

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 10:54PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

in England, there is time taken from the school week -ie tuition time -to do paperwork . In Ireland you do all of that on your own time, just like training teams, going to quizzes/debates/school tours, attend concerts, sacrament ceremonies, many in-service courses and so on, none of which count towards HRA/Croke Park.

Teachers are entitled to a minimum of 10 per cent of their time-tabled teaching time for planning, preparation and assessment. Canterbury headteacher Mr Din said: “We haven’t decreased teaching time in any way.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456256/School-shuts-early-as-teachers-plan-lesson

Also in Finland teachers teach for approx 3 hours per day maximum with 2 hours left available for CPD per week.

UpTheSash · 04-03-2014 10:59PM

So .................... it's only possible to post on here as long as you say what everyone wants to hear! Kind of says it all really.
.

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 11:01PM

UpTheSash wrote: »

So .................... it's only possible to post on here as long as you say what everyone wants to hear! Kind of says it all really.
.

You're entitled to your own opinion.

You're not entitled to your own facts.

marienbad · 04-03-2014 11:02PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

That still shows that teachers in Ireland work more classroom hours than teachers in most other OECD countries

Unlike Education ministeries in other countries the DES do not keep record of hours worked outside the classroom - the 88 Croke Park and Haddington Road hours are not included in those figures for instance.

But you're not here to discuss the facts. . . we accept that.

Is the graphic incorrect though ? And why does it differ from the other one ?

Inspector Coptoor · 04-03-2014 11:03PM

UpTheSash wrote: »

So .................... it's only possible to post on here as long as you say what everyone wants to hear! Kind of says it all really.
.

You can say what you like.
Just don't be surprised when people more knowledgable about their OWN terms of employment refute the claptrap you are spouting.

marienbad · 04-03-2014 11:07PM

Boskowski wrote: »

Sorry if I'm completely off the mark but I have teachers in the family and I have heard the opinion that young teachers have it so bad because the older teachers/unions basically sacrificed them so that they can hold on to their own pay/perks.

Is there anything in that?

Same situation in our extended family, think you hit the nail on the head .A lot of state and semi- state organisations would appear to have thrown the younger generation under the bus to protect their own packages.

ledgebag1 · 04-03-2014 11:09PM

Any chance of a reply to my question?

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 11:14PM

ledgebag1 wrote: »

I asked the below question earlier and I know there was a lot of back and forth in the press but maybe one if the teachers who is a union member could answer?

"In response to the OP, what have the teachers unions done to address all the points you have made? If all teachers are unhappy about these conditions then why have they not taken action? I am in the process of becoming a secondary school teacher so i am not attacking you or your points but i am curious to know how all these changes came into effect without consultation or consent from teachers. Could you explain whatctook place or the process that made these changes come into effect"

I am becoming a teacher and I am curious as to the environment/ atmosphere may lay ahead in regards to unions

The leaders of the Teaching Unions are basically fixers for the Government.

They do not represent those who pay their wages.

Their real masters are the politicians.

By all accounts the public sector should have went on strike long ago . . . and remained on strike until some cuts were reversed and with a guarantee of no further threats to pay and conditions.

It never happened. It never will happen.

Consequently the Govt will carry on cutting whilst paying 100m+ per annum to consultants like Ernst & Young.

evolving_doors · 04-03-2014 11:19PM

marienbad wrote: »

Same situation in our extended family, think you hit the nail on the head .A lot of state and semi- state organisations would appear to have thrown the younger generation under the bus to protect their own packages.

I would have thought that previously too but from reading posts here it's not as straightforward.
Consider the absence of junior teachers from Union meetings mentioned by union reps here. Also a lot of the more senior Teachers have been fighting tooth and nail for the profession (NQTs to Retirees) but the very top table have been found wanting. I.e. Pat King travelling around to schools at the final vote recommending a Yes vote but at the same time recommending a No in a letter sent to all members! His performance in the media is as bland as watery milk.

ledgebag1 · 04-03-2014 11:20PM

Do teachers pay a subscription to their unions such as the construction industry as well as the civil service do?

Surely if they do then by not paying the subscription and rescinding their association or membership with the union they show a loss of faith

evolving_doors · 04-03-2014 11:34PM

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Do teachers pay a subscription to their unions such as the construction industry as well as the civil service do?

Surely if they do then by not paying the subscription and rescinding their association or membership with the union they show a loss of faith

Yes and many are leaving. Although unfortunately though many view the membership as a form of VHI, if an employment dispute arises the union will represent you for free. Many feel that employing their own (non-union) solictor is equivalent to going privately to a hospital without insurance and paying as you go. For that reason alone I think many teachers don't view the unions as being good for anything else... and could you blame them after the last 'fight' debacle.

our next 45minute long lunch time protest out side school gates(you may not have heard of it) is going to look like this...

Pathetic...

Pwpane · 04-03-2014 11:35PM

marienbad wrote: »

Same situation in our extended family, think you hit the nail on the head .A lot of state and semi- state organisations would appear to have thrown the younger generation under the bus to protect their own packages.

This really bugs me.

Why blame colleagues for something the government did?

Just because you can't stop the govt in these times from doing whatever they want, you search around for someone else to blame.

You know right well that there are people with less pay than you in the local shop, in your local education centre etc. Have you cut thousands off your pay and put it in a standing order to them, to run indefinitely? Thousands? And if you haven't, have you thrown those people under the bus to protect yourself? Why haven't you fought for them, offered your own pay to shore up theirs?

Or would you protest that you have no control over their pay?

Well, we had no control over what the govt decided to pay new teachers. They weren't offering a deal - they were doing it anyway. And then they came back for our salary as well.

I fought for pay increases in the past. I marched, sent letters, stood in picket lines, went on strike and work-to-rule. And we achieved pay increases for our profession and better conditions. And now you want me to give up part of my pay to people who won't even join a union?

The recession has come and stripped away our gains. Let's see the new teachers out on the street next week. Let's see them vote against the new Junior Cert. Ah, you say, they have no vote? Won't stop them blaming older teachers for what happens.

Rant over. :mad:

UpTheSash · 04-03-2014 11:46PM

"Schools who start earlier in August are clocking up Croke Park hours, nothing to do with the school year."

How does this work when the school is also bringing the pupils back into the school from the last week in August?

Inspector Coptoor · 04-03-2014 11:52PM

Staff day Thursday
Staff day Friday
First years in Monday
3rd & 6th years in Tuesday
All in Wednesday.

The Thursday & Friday would count as two days of Croke Park hours & wouldn't count towards the 167 days of tuition.

You follow?

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 11:58PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Staff day Thursday
Staff day Friday
First years in Monday
3rd & 6th years in Tuesday
All in Wednesday.

The Thursday & Friday would count as two days of Croke Park hours & wouldn't count towards the 167 days of tuition.

You follow?

You better explain to him that the 167 days don't begin on 01 September.

:rolleyes:

Jimmy Iovine · 05-03-2014 12:03AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

in England, there is time taken from the school week -ie tuition time -to do paperwork . In Ireland you do all of that on your own time, just like training teams, going to quizzes/debates/school tours, attend concerts, sacrament ceremonies, many in-service courses and so on, none of which count towards HRA/Croke Park.

Teachers are entitled to a minimum of 10 per cent of their time-tabled teaching time for planning, preparation and assessment. Canterbury headteacher Mr Din said: “We haven’t decreased teaching time in any way.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456256/School-shuts-early-as-teachers-plan-lesson

It's vital. I'm an NQT so I get another 10% out of the timetable. I didn't teach today, but I am still so far behind on work.

It would be amazing if it came into Ireland, but it never will. The logistics of it would put most off the idea.

Also, you need an extra teacher willing to go around from class to class all week and cover the PPA time. In England they have HLTA's (Higher Level Teaching Assistants) who mainly cover the PPA time. I'd hate their job.

implausible · 05-03-2014 12:04AM

UpTheSash wrote: »

"Schools who start earlier in August are clocking up Croke Park hours, nothing to do with the school year."

How does this work when the school is also bringing the pupils back into the school from the last week in August?

I'm guessing that your experience of education is based on when you were attending school yourself, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't know that the first day of school for kids hasn't been the 1st of September in at least a decade.

ledgebag1 · 05-03-2014 12:05AM

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes and many are leaving. Although unfortunately though many view the membership as a form of VHI, if an employment dispute arises the union will represent you for free. Many feel that employing their own (non-union) solictor is equivalent to going privately to a hospital without insurance and paying as you go. For that reason alone I think many teachers don't view the unions as being good for anything else... and could you blame them after the last 'fight' debacle.

our next 45minute long lunch time protest out side school gates(you may not have heard of it) is going to look like this...

Pathetic...

Well surely a show of no confidence in the union is something that should or could be addressed? I am admittedly no legal advisor in these matters but a non effective union, are essentially worthless? Is there scope for teachers establishing an alternative representative organisation?

Anyway that's side tracking, besides all the various posts previously i still hope to become a qualified teacher, getting to work in a subject you love, on slightly better pay I will take my chances

implausible · 05-03-2014 12:13AM

marienbad wrote: »

Is the graphic incorrect though ? And why does it differ from the other one ?

The graphic is correct. What people fail to realise is that when asked how much Irish teachers work, the answer of 22 hours per week for full time teachers is given. This is the number of hours we teach. When the same question is asked in other countries, the figure given is not just teaching, but planning, assessing and professional development. Other countries have this time factored into the school week. Ireland does not measure preparation or assessment time.

I'm going to bed now after doing my unclocked mock corrections...

evolving_doors · 05-03-2014 12:20AM

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Well surely a show of no confidence in the union is something that should or could be addressed? I am admittedly no legal advisor in these matters but a non effective union, are essentially worthless? Is there scope for teachers establishing an alternative representative organisation?

Anyway that's side tracking, besides all the various posts previously i still hope to become a qualified teacher, getting to work in a subject you love, on slightly better pay I will take my chances

Yes but it's a work in progress CLICK HERE. It's not that easy to start a union though

I suppose don't get folk too wrong, it seems as if you want to engage with the issues that occur on a larger scale which is good.
Fire away and apply .. who knows you might get lucky in Ireland or things might change economically, but I think all the money in the world won;t change the damage that's been done.

ledgebag1 · 05-03-2014 12:33AM

Yeah I hear you, in my current role I haven't had any form of a raise in seven years and I pay lam the same taxes as a teacher, so why not suffer teaching a subject I really enjoy&#55357;&#56836; ultimately in these situations that the first poster outlined the various students will suffer, unless a happy medium is found

marienbad · 05-03-2014 12:48AM

Pwpane wrote: »

This really bugs me.

Why blame colleagues for something the government did?

Just because you can't stop the govt in these times from doing whatever they want, you search around for someone else to blame.

You know right well that there are people with less pay than you in the local shop, in your local education centre etc. Have you cut thousands off your pay and put it in a standing order to them, to run indefinitely? Thousands? And if you haven't, have you thrown those people under the bus to protect yourself? Why haven't you fought for them, offered your own pay to shore up theirs?

Or would you protest that you have no control over their pay?

Well, we had no control over what the govt decided to pay new teachers. They weren't offering a deal - they were doing it anyway. And then they came back for our salary as well.

I fought for pay increases in the past. I marched, sent letters, stood in picket lines, went on strike and work-to-rule. And we achieved pay increases for our profession and better conditions. And now you want me to give up part of my pay to people who won't even join a union?

The recession has come and stripped away our gains. Let's see the new teachers out on the street next week. Let's see them vote against the new Junior Cert. Ah, you say, they have no vote? Won't stop them blaming older teachers for what happens.

Rant over. :mad:

The teaching profession did very well in the Celtic tiger years - I know of one lady just retired and with all allowances etc her finishing salary was over 90 k- extraordinary money - Chief Executives in other roles are on less.

Corrective action was inevitable irrespective of the Tiger collapse and instead of it taking place in an orderly manner the 'what we have we hold' attitude has taken place at the expense of new entrants.

Teachers are still better off now pro rata than before the Celtic Tiger and Benchmarking should work both ways - both up and down in the context of the wider economy.

Or do you expect others to pay more taxes on less wages to maintain the status quo ?

pinkbear · 05-03-2014 01:15AM

While technically the points made originally are true, my story is:

I am a permanent secondary school teacher. I work approx 50 hours per week in total, about 15 of these from home. Once a week I teach 2 hours and 40 minutes without a break. That is the longest it is possible in my school to teach without a break. I have one half day per week which gives me flexibility for appointments. I work ten minutes from home. I get 18 weeks paid holidays per year. I have the option to give grinds, act as exam supervisor or corrector, or supervise after school study for extra pay. I think I am incredibly lucky and love my job.

I am on better conditions than newer teachers (and worse than older) but I have never seen any sign of poverty among any of the staff members in my school, and the majority would be considered fairly well off. I worked for ten years before teaching, and this is - by a country mile - the best job I have ever had. I took a 50% pay drop to become a teacher, to suit my family life better.

To those of you "wannabe teachers" at whom this thread is targeted, I would say go for it. If you are as lucky as me, you will have a wonderful happy career. I would be happy to encourage my own children down my route. I am a glass-half-full kind of person though.

ledgebag1 · 05-03-2014 01:18AM

Thanks pink bear, great to hear and very encouraging

Pwpane · 05-03-2014 01:27AM

marienbad wrote: »

The teaching profession did very well in the Celtic tiger years - I know of one lady just retired and with all allowances etc her finishing salary was over 90 k- extraordinary money - Chief Executives in other roles are on less.

Principals, in general, don't teach. And teachers don't set principals' salaries.

Corrective action was inevitable irrespective of the Tiger collapse and instead of it taking place in an orderly manner the 'what we have we hold' attitude has taken place at the expense of new entrants.

Corrective action? If the Tiger had not collapsed then there would be no anomaly between teachers' salaries and those of their counterparts. What evidence have you that current teachers' salaries were maintained at the expense of new entrants, beyond your own conjecture?

Teachers are still better off now pro rata than before the Celtic Tiger and Benchmarking should work both ways - both up and down in the context of the wider economy.

The slashing of teachers' salaries was not done by benchmarking - it would not have survived the process. Instead it was done by fiat.

Or do you expect others to pay more taxes on less wages to maintain the status quo ?

That is exactly what happened - I pay more taxes on less wages to maintain those who beggared the country.

endakenny · 05-03-2014 01:28AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As out of touch with the reality in schools as your name sake and his govt. How do you think the allegation may have come to light? Do you know anything abut the "Children First " guidelines?
HSE are so stretched that they have closed waiting lists in some areas, short of knifing half the class , a student won't get any support from the HSE until it's too late.

I said that the investigation of child abuse is a matter for the Gardaí. I didn't say that child abuse isn't a matter of concern for teachers. I am aware of mandatory reporting.

marienbad · 05-03-2014 01:41AM

Pwpane wrote: »

Principals, in general, don't teach. And teachers don't set principals' salaries.

Corrective action? If the Tiger had not collapsed then there would be no anomaly between teachers' salaries and those of their counterparts. What evidence have you that current teachers' salaries were maintained at the expense of new entrants, beyond your own conjecture?

The slashing of teachers' salaries was not done by benchmarking - it would not have survived the process. Instead it was done by fiat.

That is exactly what happened - I pay more taxes on less wages to maintain those who beggared the country.

I never said that person was a principal or even assistant principal.

What evidence you ask ??? Are you not reading the thread ?

I never said it was done by benchmarking - it was done by fiat as was the the original benchmarking process in effect. It was simply unsustainable .

No you pay more on taxes to maintain the pension entitlements you already have, and -correct me if I am wrong -a pension new entrants to the profession will never have.

rainbowtrout · 05-03-2014 01:43AM

pinkbear wrote: »

While technically the points made originally are true, my story is:

I am a permanent secondary school teacher. I work approx 50 hours per week in total, about 15 of these from home. Once a week I teach 2 hours and 40 minutes without a break. That is the longest it is possible in my school to teach without a break. I have one half day per week which gives me flexibility for appointments. I work ten minutes from home. I get 18 weeks paid holidays per year. I have the option to give grinds, act as exam supervisor or corrector, or supervise after school study for extra pay. I think I am incredibly lucky and love my job.

I am on better conditions than newer teachers (and worse than older) but I have never seen any sign of poverty among any of the staff members in my school, and the majority would be considered fairly well off. I worked for ten years before teaching, and this is - by a country mile - the best job I have ever had. I took a 50% pay drop to become a teacher, to suit my family life better.

To those of you "wannabe teachers" at whom this thread is targeted, I would say go for it. If you are as lucky as me, you will have a wonderful happy career. I would be happy to encourage my own children down my route. I am a glass-half-full kind of person though.

How could you possibly know any of this? Teachers are expected by and large to look presentable for work, so beyond that unless people are telling you of their financial situation and details of their life outside school you don't know if they are struggling or not.

A teacher who started with us this year is on point 1 of the new scale. She is on a contract of 5-6 hours. She asked me a couple of weeks ago to explain something to her on her payslip. She was coming out with less than the dole for her fortnights work. She lives 25-30 miles from the school so is spending a chunk of that weekly wage on petrol for the commute each day. I don't know what her circumstances are outside school but she's earning fcuk all with us.

Poverty doesn't have to mean that people are coming in to work in old, tatty clothes. It can mean that they aren't heating their houses, or paying their bills or living off pot noodles because they have no money, and putting everything on the credit card. You don't see that side of their lives in the staffroom.

Presumably with you being permanent you are more than likely on the pre-2011 scale. A difference of about 11k on starting wage on full hours for an NQT on the old scale and the new one. The availability of jobs on full hours is pretty much non existent too for new teachers.

Maybe consider the hours the new teachers in your school are on tomorrow. If they are on less than half they are financially no better off than they would be on the dole.

There's wanting to get into teaching for the love of the job, but a line has to be drawn somewhere if you have 4+ years of university education under your belt and you can't secure anything better than dole money. For many new teachers it's not a job than can provide an income that is sustainable in the long term.

Pwpane · 05-03-2014 02:01AM

I ask you again - what evidence have you that current teachers' salaries were maintained at the expense of new entrants' salaries?

I'm not asking if current teachers' salaries were maintained. I'm not asking if new entrants' salaries were reduced. I'm asking for evidence that there is a connection. Do you have any?

marienbad wrote: »

I never said that person was a principal or even assistant principal.

What evidence you ask ??? Are you not reading the thread ?

I never said it was done by benchmarking - it was done by fiat as was the the original benchmarking process in effect. It was simply unsustainable .

No you pay more on taxes to maintain the pension entitlements you already have, and -correct me if I am wrong -a pension new entrants to the profession will never have.

A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

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