Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

steddyeddy · 25-02-2014 12:45PM

Yep it pains me to say it but as my granny said "All the real men died in 1916". Colonialism has left our nation with a learned helplessness.

renegademaster · 25-02-2014 12:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Well fcuk all attended the protests on Banking, HHC, Property Tax etc etc.
So nothing is new at all there and nothing will change either.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yep it pains me to say it but as my granny said "All the real men died in 1916". Colonialism has left our nation with a learned helplessness.

so, because the majority weren't ready then we're going to insist we dig our heels in now and do nothing is it?? the jail the bankers protests were really turning into something until the government and the impending summer holidays got to the SWP/PbP, if they had continued i'm fairly confident the current government would have been out months ago

mathie · 25-02-2014 01:18PM

renegademaster wrote: »

so, because the majority weren't ready then we're going to insist we dig our heels in now and do nothing is it?? the jail the bankers protests were really turning into something until the government and the impending summer holidays got to the SWP/PbP, if they had continued i'm fairly confident the current government would have been out months ago

"Sorry lads I'd love to join the revolution but I'm off to Tenerife for two weeks with the family"

renegademaster · 25-02-2014 01:55PM

mathie wrote: »

"Sorry lads I'd love to join the revolution but I'm off to Tenerife for two weeks with the family"

that and the fact they called for a 3 hour protest that actually only lasted 45 minutes was a joke!! they also gave a false choise to over 2000 of their dublin supporters and even before this false choice was given to the people the SWP/PbP were already settign up to bring the crowds down to the garda station near the dail so they could hand in a couple of hundred complaints against anglo, even though hundreds had already handed in the very same letters across the country. and the funniest thing of the whole day was the MC James O Toole had only just launched a book entitled "revolution ; a beginners guide a fortnight before this and was tryin to get me to join the "democratic" party as he called it but less than 2 weeks later i witnessed the whole movement disbanded in front of my very eyes and then it died.

militant revolutionaries me ar$e!!

marienbad · 25-02-2014 02:08PM

renegademaster wrote: »

that and the fact they called for a 3 hour protest that actually only lasted 45 minutes was a joke!! they also gave a false choise to over 2000 of their dublin supporters and even before this false choice was given to the people the SWP/PbP were already settign up to bring the crowds down to the garda station near the dail so they could hand in a couple of hundred complaints against anglo, even though hundreds had already handed in the very same letters across the country. and the funniest thing of the whole day was the MC James O Toole had only just launched a book entitled "revolution ; a beginners guide a fortnight before this and was tryin to get me to join the "democratic" party as he called it but less than 2 weeks later i witnessed the whole movement disbanded in front of my very eyes and then it died.

militant revolutionaries me ar$e!!

And thank God for that - last thing we need

steddyeddy · 25-02-2014 02:17PM

marienbad wrote: »

And thank God for that - last thing we need

Better than sitting at home allowing this to happen. People who do nothing are responsible for corruption. Simple as.

marienbad · 25-02-2014 03:26PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Better than sitting at home allowing this to happen. People who do nothing are responsible for corruption. Simple as.

No corrupt people are responsible for corruption, don't tar us all with the same brush.

The first line of defence is our justice departments , lets ask why they are not functioning before blaming everyone else .

renegademaster · 25-02-2014 05:05PM

marienbad wrote: »

No corrupt people are responsible for corruption, don't tar us all with the same brush.

The first line of defence is our justice departments , lets ask why they are not functioning before blaming everyone else .

and what do we say to the corrupt when they're exposed, carry on a chara cos we don't give enough of a hoot to run you from your privilaged position!!

marienbad · 25-02-2014 05:23PM

renegademaster wrote: »

and what do we say to the corrupt when they're exposed, carry on a chara cos we don't give enough of a hoot to run you from your privilaged position!!

Get the oversight bodies working first and then I might have an opinion on what to do with the corrupt crowd .

Potential-Monke · 25-02-2014 09:33PM

Unfortunately, like most other debates, people with one opinion are always going to disagree with people with a different opinion.

marienbad wrote: »

And don't defend the many by equivocating with every other sector , treating whistle-blowers like the plague, and being forever at war with the mandated complaints authority.

And standards in the Gardaí are and should be higher that the general public. Caesar's wife and all that

I'm not taking sides, i'm neutral. I know there is corruption, as it is with every walk of life. But i also know, like every other walk of life, it's blown out of proportion. I'm not defending those who are corrupt, i'm defending those who are called corrupt by matter of association. And yes, the standards are higher with AGS, and if it's a problem with nothing being done then that's a problem with those whose pay grades are higher than that of most frontline ranks of AGS.

TheLastMohican wrote: »

Just to quote your last bit. So corruption bleeds from the top but is particular on whom it bleeds. Not on all, just some.
This also means that it gets more corrupt as it nears the top, if there is a filtering system lower down.
Don't tell this to Callinan or he might book into St John Of Gods and thereby get off the whole shebang. Who needs Mary Harney dropping names these days

Yes, corruption bleeds from the top. You hardly think a Joe Nobody at the bottom is the most corrupt person in the force? And i'm not necessarily saying that the very top is where it starts. And where is the very top in AGS? Does it stop at the Commissioner? Or does it continue up through the Government? I think we know that answer... When the heads of departments are in league with, in my opinion, the most corrupt in this society (ie: those with most power - politicians). I will take a stab at politicians for corruption, because it's blatently obvious over the last few years as to the extent of that corruption - the interactions with the banks, developers, etc. You think the Commissioner would be able to get away with what has happened (that is, his attitude and actions in the most recent scandal) if his immediate superior did not want this happening? His immediate superior who used the Commissioner to get information which he should not have been entitled to.

steddyeddy wrote: »

The problem isn't that there are corrupt gaurds. There is corruption on all walks of life. The problem with the gaurds as an institution is that they do very little to get rid of those caught in the act.

So far we have:

The admitted covering up of child abuse and attempted prosecution of an abuse victim

The framing of a man for murder (Donegal)

Garda whistle-blowers ignored

Gaurds telling lies in relation to court cases

Very few of those gaurds (if any) were prosecuted. Doing nothing about corruption is the same as supporting it.

I agree, action needs to happen and it needs to happen quick. GSOC were created to investigate complaints against Gardaí, and they have successful prosecutions and imprisonments against members of AGS. But, like the criminals AGS are there to protect against, the court has to be satisified beyond reasonable doubt that the member did commit a criminal offence. The same loopholes and legal pitfalls are there for everyone to use, Garda or not. That is why you don't see the prosecutions. To prosecute someone is probably one of the hardest things to do in this country. Sit in on court in a busy area someday, and you'll see how hard it is in the more serious cases.

But who's there to police GSOC? They can get it wrong, and i'm sure are also open to corruption. What if we created an ombudsman commission for politicians, or judges (both badly needed imo). Who's there to police them? Corruption has always, and will always exist. Certain people with power crave more. It's human nature, and it's impossible to weed out those who can be affected by it. As many have said, action is the only way to deal with corruption, but in true form to Newtons law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Take one down, another will replace it with more knowledge on how to avoid being caught.

Again, i'm not saying we shouldn't do anything. Something does need to be done. I am just defending the innocent who are tarred with the same brush by simple matter of association. I had a bad experience with a mechanic, as have many people. Yet i don't call every mechanic a scheming scumbag only out to fool people and make money.

steddyeddy · 26-02-2014 12:23AM

marienbad wrote: »

No corrupt people are responsible for corruption, don't tar us all with the same brush.

The first line of defence is our justice departments , lets ask why they are not functioning before blaming everyone else .

I will thanks. Corrupt people are going to be corrupt. Those who do nothing are to blame for corruption happening again and again.

marienbad · 26-02-2014 12:30AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I will thanks. Corrupt people are going to be corrupt. Those who do nothing are to blame for corruption happening again and again.

So are you advocating mob rule or what ?

steddyeddy · 26-02-2014 12:47AM

marienbad wrote: »

So are you advocating mob rule or what ?

I'm advocating protest i.e communicating the fact that we are not happy about something. If that doesn't work remove these people by voting.

marienbad · 26-02-2014 12:57AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm advocating protest i.e communicating the fact that we are not happy about something. If that doesn't work remove these people by voting.

I will stick with the voting option .

steddyeddy · 26-02-2014 12:59AM

marienbad wrote: »

I will stick with the voting option .

Well fair play bra it's worked fantastic so far

. How exactly will you vote to change things? Why would any politician even want to change things if they think the public don't give a monkeys.

marienbad · 26-02-2014 01:22AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well fair play bra it's worked fantastic so far . How exactly will you vote to change things? Why would any politician even want to change things if they think the public don't give a monkeys.

And taking to the streets has ?

steddyeddy · 26-02-2014 01:26AM

marienbad wrote: »

And taking to the streets has ?

Yes actually it has. In many other countries marching and protests have achieved success. Civil rights movements, protests over government and in this country the pensioners marched over medical card cuts.

Back to my original question, why would any politician strive to change any hint of corruption in the system?

marienbad · 26-02-2014 01:39AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes actually it has. In many other countries marching and protests have achieved success. Civil rights movements, protests over government and in this country the pensioners marched over medical card cuts.

Back to my original question, why would any politician strive to change any hint of corruption in the system?

Possibly because it is the right thing to do ?

steddyeddy · 26-02-2014 01:43AM

marienbad wrote: »

Possibly because it is the right thing to do ?

Are you joking?

renegademaster · 26-02-2014 01:45AM

marienbad wrote: »

And taking to the streets has ?

last huge protest was in dublin in november 2011 when 150,000 took to the streets in spite of harsh conditions with the country getting covered in snow overnight, anyway we all converged on the streets and demanded fianna fail call the general election and get to fcuk out of government, a few weeks later that's what happened,

since then we've had

marienbad · 26-02-2014 02:36AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Are you joking?

Not at all, we get the politicians and government we deserve and elect. We are not a protesting nation . So lets start electing a better class of public representative.

It is the only long term solution, unless you want to be like Italy with a new government every 6 months and nothing changing.

tayto lover · 26-02-2014 07:16PM

I didn't see too many on the streets over the Banking scam, HHC, Property Tax etc and I was on most of them.
Not much good protesting on a computer or a barstool.

dxhound2005 · 26-02-2014 08:18PM

renegademaster wrote: »

last huge protest was in dublin in november 2011 when 150,000 took to the streets in spite of harsh conditions with the country getting covered in snow overnight, anyway we all converged on the streets and demanded fianna fail call the general election and get to fcuk out of government, a few weeks later that's what happened,

since then we've had

Fianna Fail were long gone by November 2011. You might be thinking of the one in November 2010 that tried to burn down Leinster House.

Since then we've had less snow?

renegademaster · 26-02-2014 08:36PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Fianna Fail were long gone by November 2011. You might be thinking of the one in November 2010 that tried to burn down Leinster House.

Since then we've had less snow?

yes it was nov 2010, i stand corrected, so that makes it 3.5 years since the Irish people truly stood up to government of the day :eek::eek::eek:

we've had snow since then but haven't had 150,000 people all in the one place in such harsh conditions and screaming for change

TheHappyChappy · 26-02-2014 08:37PM

stupid paddy's get what they voted for.

tayto lover · 26-02-2014 10:06PM

TheHappyChappy wrote: »

stupid paddy's get what they voted for.

Indeed.

Shatter and Wallace. Two of a kind. Pot, kettle, black.
One trying to hang on to the trough and the other afraid to let go.

WilyCoyote · 03-03-2014 03:07AM

When you look at Gilligan's Jessbrook Equestrian Centre ........ and you wonder how this lowlife was allowed to attain such status is a reflection on how the gardai in this country work.
AFAIK, a retired commissioner bought a house from a criminal at a decent price in the mid 90s. At the time - after eyebrows were raised - it was stated that he did not know the identity of the seller (who had been given a very light sentence for a previous crime) although a relative lived not too far away. OK, the sale went through an agent ....... but don't you think that the agent would have brought this to the commissioner's notice. Or if the relation was dumb ........ were the local cops dumber? The retired commissioner is keeping his head down - apart from speaking engagements.
Hey Mr Commissioner (Rtd), if you're on boards.ie please explain this apparently innocent anomaly.

catallus · 03-03-2014 03:17AM

You've got a lot of nonsense going on there. I don't think the cops in this country have much say in how much of a sentence a convicted criminal gets; and the laws of the land don't forbid a criminal from owning or selling or buying property.

Maybe you should take a harder look at a system which rapidly rotates an approximate population of 5000 criminals through its system again and again and again, keeping an underpaid police force overworked with menial refuse-collecting while the bigger criminals who cost this country billions remain contemptuous of a legal system which has no interest in even a cursory examination of their crimes.

As for your assertion that a commissioner bought a property at "a very decent price" well that was par for the course in the "mid 90s".

TheHappyChappy · 03-03-2014 09:55AM

The scandal of the commissioner & the criminal property deal happened pre morris & gsoc....

If it happened today it would not be IMHO swept under the carpet & covered up,

Even shatter couldn't explain this bizarre occurrence

WilyCoyote · 03-03-2014 05:21PM

catallus wrote: »

You've got a lot of nonsense going on there. I don't think the cops in this country have much say in how much of a sentence a convicted criminal gets; and the laws of the land don't forbid a criminal from owning or selling or buying property.

Maybe you should take a harder look at a system which rapidly rotates an approximate population of 5000 criminals through its system again and again and again, keeping an underpaid police force overworked with menial refuse-collecting while the bigger criminals who cost this country billions remain contemptuous of a legal system which has no interest in even a cursory examination of their crimes.

As for your assertion that a commissioner bought a property at "a very decent price" well that was par for the course in the "mid 90s".

I don't understand where you get your first sentence from.
Yes, the gardai often have a word that will be passed on to the judge ....... recommendations etc.
"An underpaid police force overworked?" You are joking here? Overworked doing what? Solving crime does not seem to be it's forte. If they were as diligent in chasing criminals as they are at fitting up civilians (and some of their colleagues) then the crime figures might not need cooking to make them more attractive.
When I say the commissioner bought the house at a very decent price, I mean just that ........ at mid 1990 prices. Still don't understand? He got it cheap.
Now, if the top honcho in the catholic church in Ireland bought a house off a notorious pimp - there would be questions asked. People would wonder if (1) the holy man had, lets say, promised that the entrance to heaven might be made a little easier, (2) there had been a little bartering, (3) the pimp had something on the churchman, (4) they both are part of The Illuminati

Before the culling in the gardai ranks and before their salaries were cut ...... was there a better rate of crime solving? Not likely, they were too busy taking foreign holidays, forming consortia of real estate moguls, diverting all negative attention (instead checking it out) and, again, fitting up innocent people.
Take the amount of hours wrongfully used up in both the Donegal cases.
The underneath just referred to the McBrearty case AFAIK.

The Morris Tribunal takes place against probably the most over-reaching reform of the Gardaí in its history, the Garda Síochána Act 2005, which established the Garda Ombudsman Commission and other strategic initiatives. So far, it has resulted in the resignations of several senior officers in the force, including one Chief Superintendent and three Superintendents, after they were criticised for negligence, as well as the firing of another Superintendent found to be corrupt. Several other present and former officers of various ranks have been criticised for negligence, found to have lied, or been found to have acted corruptly.

The second report:
The second report in June 2005[2] concerned the Barron Investigation module, which looked at events following the hit and run death on 14 October 1996 of cattle dealer Richie Barron, which police mistakenly treated as a murder inquiry; and hoax extortion calls received by Michael and Charlotte Peoples on 9 November 1996.
The second report exposed further evidence of lies, malice and incompetence among the force in Donegal. The Tribunal chairman described the investigation into the death of cattle dealer Richie Barron as "an extraordinary shambles". "There is evidence of willful blunders, gross negligence, laziness, emotionally wrong-headed rushes to judge people as guilty and a determination by some parties to ensure that, even if there was no evidence, that the suspicions formulated were going to stick and stick permanently".[3]

Gardai corruption or have we become a nation of cynics?

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