The Hazards of Belief

Turtwig · 27-02-2014 03:59PM

bluewolf wrote: »

It's not an anti gay law, it's a private business can refuse service law. Which I think should be legal. I think they're assholes if they do it, but I think they should have the right.
Then we can boycott them ...
Makes zero business sense anyway. Once they shut down like that bakery, they might cop on.

Consumers almost never boycott anything on conscience. All you need to do is examine the modern person's commodities and see how many of them came from worker exploitation or similar. There's also the fact that blatantly stolen goods are resold. It's not that the people buying these goods are callous selfish beings it's that their own lifestyle necessitates that they save money wherever possible. In Estates in England in you actually have people who shoplift food and stuff so they can feed their neighbours! People, in general, whether rich or poor will mostly buy whatever's most convenient. Shopping with conscience generally just achieves the emergence of another niche market. The unethical ones will still remain. Need to emphasise one point, unethical is probably the wrong choice of the word here as there isn't a real clear black or white here, everything is just a shade of grey.

27-02-2014 04:27PM

Jernal wrote: »

Consumers almost never boycott anything on conscience.

Except when they do
http://www.examiner.com/article/oregon-anti-gay-christian-bakery-shuts-down-after-public-pressure
Things like this are why I have confidence it will work
If people care enough that they think something should be against the law, they'll care enough to boycott

Turtwig · 27-02-2014 04:30PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Except when they do
http://www.examiner.com/article/oregon-anti-gay-christian-bakery-shuts-down-after-public-pressure
Things like this are why I have confidence it will work
If people care enough that they think something should be against the law, they'll care enough to boycott

I didn't deny that there would be examples to the contrary just that these examples would generally buck the trend. However, in the article linked and what I followed on the bakery at the time it really seemed like an awful place anyway prejudice or no prejudices.:p It may have gone out of business anyway.

the article linked wrote:

yet the public controversy and negative media attention may not be the only reason why the bakery is closing. The Portland Food Examiner reports many local residents are not surprised that Sweet Cakes by Melissa closed because “they had several horrible reviews on Yelp and around the web about their bad service and poor quality cakes in general.”

Hotblack Desiato · 27-02-2014 11:23PM

robindch wrote: »

A 15-year old girl in North Carolina

Best thing you can say about North Carolina... it's not quite as bad as South Carolina :rolleyes:

bluewolf wrote: »

It's not an anti gay law, it's a private business can refuse service law. Which I think should be legal. I think they're assholes if they do it, but I think they should have the right.
Then we can boycott them ...
Makes zero business sense anyway. Once they shut down like that bakery, they might cop on.

It's not an anti-black law, it's a private business can refuse service law. Uhuh.

If southern USA blacks were waiting on the goodwill of their fellow southern whites to do the right thing, they'd probably still be waiting.

obplayer · 27-02-2014 11:39PM

bluewolf wrote: »

It's not an anti gay law, it's a private business can refuse service law. Which I think should be legal. I think they're assholes if they do it, but I think they should have the right.
Then we can boycott them ...
Makes zero business sense anyway. Once they shut down like that bakery, they might cop on.

Should it be legal to refuse service because they are black? Or wear a turban? Or speak funny? Where does it end?

Pherekydes · 28-02-2014 06:24AM

obplayer wrote: »

Should it be legal to refuse service because they are black? Or wear a turban? Or speak funny? Where does it end?

With Libertarianism, there is no end. Just let the market forces sort things out.

See Ninja's post for the riposte to that.

Nodin · 28-02-2014 08:03AM

"A PRIEST has been arrested by gardai investigating the theft of more than €500,000 from his religious order.

It follows a six-month investigation by a team of detectives into complaints of theft, which allegedly took place over a 13-year period.
The cash was allegedly taken from the order by making false claims for Mass stipends.
Under canon law, a priest is entitled to receive one stipend from the diocese or the order from collections made during the celebration of Mass.
Additional stipends cannot be claimed if the priest celebrates multiple Masses on one day.
However, it is alleged that the 59-year-old suspect lodged several claims on a regular basis and received payments from the authorities."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-held-over-500k-theft-from-his-order-30049059.html

recedite · 28-02-2014 11:03AM

bluewolf wrote: »

It's not an anti gay law, it's a private business can refuse service law. Which I think should be legal.

Private businesses can and do refuse service all the time, but in sneaky ways. They can quote an extra high price, add random surcharges, say they are too busy, can't do it for another 3 months etc... This might not even be for hate reasons, it could be because the work involves too much travel.
But to allow them to openly discriminate against a person because of the client's race/religion/sexual orientation and stand proudly (with the full approval of the law behind them) while doing it would be a mistake.

TwoShedsJackson · 28-02-2014 11:50AM

Nodin wrote: »

"A PRIEST has been arrested by gardai investigating the theft of more than €500,000 from his religious order.

It follows a six-month investigation by a team of detectives into complaints of theft, which allegedly took place over a 13-year period.
The cash was allegedly taken from the order by making false claims for Mass stipends.
Under canon law, a priest is entitled to receive one stipend from the diocese or the order from collections made during the celebration of Mass.
Additional stipends cannot be claimed if the priest celebrates multiple Masses on one day.
However, it is alleged that the 59-year-old suspect lodged several claims on a regular basis and received payments from the authorities."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-held-over-500k-theft-from-his-order-30049059.html

Seems like a prime spot for a 'resting in my account' excuse.

Brian Shanahan · 28-02-2014 04:36PM

bluewolf wrote: »

It's not an anti gay law, it's a private business can refuse service law. Which I think should be legal. I think they're assholes if they do it, but I think they should have the right.

Yeah when the law makers make it explicit that the point of the law is to discriminate against gays it is most definitely a homophobic piece of legislation.

Oh, and allowing people to discriminate based on their personal dislikes is an anti-human rights legislation. And no, nobody should have that right, to discriminate against others simply because they are too ****ty to ignore their base and evil prejudices.

28-02-2014 04:55PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Oh, and allowing people to discriminate based on their personal dislikes is an anti-human rights legislation

I don't think shopping is a human right
or wedding photography
They frequently cited the case of a New Mexico photographer who was sued after refusing to take wedding pictures of a gay couple and said Arizona needs a law to protect people in the state from heavy-handed actions by courts and law enforcement.
I'm not sure how legally forcing a photographer to work for you benefits you or anyone else tbh

jernal wrote:

I didn't deny that there would be examples to the contrary just that these examples would generally buck the trend.

I don't know, seemed a pretty big trend without even the need for consumer boycotts:

Large companies were opposed to the bill and warned that it could damage the state’s economy, among them Apple, American Airlines, Marriott and Delta Airlines. Sports Illustrated reported that the NFL had started to investigate the possibility of moving next season’s Super Bowl away from Arizona. Major League Baseball issued a statement condemning the legislation.

Can look at the other posts later

Whole thing has been vetoed anyway
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/arizona-governor-vetoes-anti-gay-bill

Turtwig · 28-02-2014 05:40PM

Bluey,

I have no clue in the nay of jimmies what the bill consisted of. My post was directed at the notion that consumers would boycott a business that's behaving unethically.

me wrote:

consumers almost never boycott anything on conscience.

That's the trend I was referring to.

28-02-2014 05:41PM

Yeah I just noticed that in the article and thought it was worth a mention!

Turtwig · 28-02-2014 05:42PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah I just noticed that in the article and thought it was worth a mention!

Ahh ok.
Biscuit?

28-02-2014 05:55PM

Jernal wrote: »

Ahh ok.
Biscuit?

domino cookie plz :cool:

robindch · 28-02-2014 07:17PM

robindch wrote: »

A 15-year old girl in North Carolina tries to set up a secular group in her school. But abandons it owing to threats made against her, her family and her friends.

The school denies the report and its lawyer says the entire story is false:

http://www.wlos.com/shared/news/features/top-stories/stories/wlos_school-club-controversy-15319.shtml

Turtwig · 28-02-2014 07:37PM

robindch wrote: »

The school denies the report and its lawyer says the entire story is false:

http://www.wlos.com/shared/news/features/top-stories/stories/wlos_school-club-controversy-15319.shtml

Sympathy type troll?

robindch · 28-02-2014 10:05PM

Jernal wrote: »

Sympathy type troll?

Hard to know. Both the school and Ms Wilson may have a political interest in portraying themselves as victims. In the absence of any response from Ms Wilson, it's hard to know who's telling the truth, and who isn't. Certainly, the school could have been wiser than to wheel out its lawyer for a routine "Pants on fire!" denouncement.

obplayer · 01-03-2014 04:12AM

How many times does this kind of thing have to happen?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570376/Seventh-Day-Adventists-religious-beliefs-led-five-month-old-son-dying-rickets-failed-medical-care-jailed.html

Nodin · 01-03-2014 10:42AM

obplayer wrote: »

How many times does this kind of thing have to happen?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570376/Seventh-Day-Adventists-religious-beliefs-led-five-month-old-son-dying-rickets-failed-medical-care-jailed.html

.....when you have a religion part-founded by a woman who started having visions after being smacked in the head with a rock, it's never going to turn out well, tbh.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-03-2014 02:48AM

Nodin wrote: »

.....when you have a religion part-founded by a woman who started having visions after being smacked in the head with a rock, it's never going to turn out well, tbh.

Being smacked in the head helps immensely with religious belief, according to my primary educators.

Nodin · 02-03-2014 07:46AM

ninja900 wrote: »

Being smacked in the head helps immensely with religious belief, according to my primary educators.

Spreading the word of the lord, by spelling "lord" in thumb tacks on yer big hittin ruler......

robindch · 03-03-2014 12:30PM

Prominent thinker and public intellectual Liam Neeson reckons that "Islam is the Answer", but won't convert as he's worried about what his neighbors in Ballymena might think. Irish reporting at its very best.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/laim-neesons-taken-islam-afraid-3183331

Irish Mirror wrote:

Movie star Liam Neeson has admitted he’s afraid to convert to Islam because of how locals in his home town would take it.

The Northern Irish actor thinks Islam “is the answer” after experiencing the Muslim call to prayer while filming Taken 2 in Istanbul.

But the 61-year-old doesn’t want to go all the way because people in Ballymena, Co Antrim, may be annoyed with his decision.

He added: “In Istanbul, the Muslim call to prayer starts at 5am.

“For the first week it was hard to take, in the second week I thought it was quite nice and by the third week I was totally captivated by it.

“It wouldn’t go down very well in Ballymena.

“They would say to me, ‘You’re a Muslim? Are you a Catholic Muslim or a Protestant Muslim?’ ”

kylith · 03-03-2014 03:14PM

robindch wrote: »

Prominent thinker and public intellectual Liam Neeson reckons that "Islam is the Answer", but won't convert as he's worried about what his neighbors in Ballymena might think. Irish reporting at its very best.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/laim-neesons-taken-islam-afraid-3183331

But, did he actually go to prayer or learn anything about Islam, or did he just think it was a handy alarm clock?

Bannasidhe · 03-03-2014 04:17PM

kylith wrote: »

But, did he actually go to prayer or learn anything about Islam, or did he just think it was a handy alarm clock?

Well, the Angeleus are often late so....

03-03-2014 04:27PM

ninja900 wrote: »

It's not an anti-black law, it's a private business can refuse service law. Uhuh.
.

And if a black business owner wants to refuse white supremacists service? Tough luck suck it up?
If I had a shop I wouldn't mind it being legal to refuse the westboro lads if they showed up

Bannasidhe · 03-03-2014 04:29PM

bluewolf wrote: »

And if a black business owner wants to refuse white supremacists service? Tough luck suck it up?
If I had a shop I wouldn't mind it being legal to refuse the westboro lads if they showed up

Meh - I would just have a 'special' price rate....

Brian Shanahan · 03-03-2014 05:34PM

robindch wrote: »

Prominent thinker and public intellectual Liam Neeson reckons that "Islam is the Answer", but won't convert as he's worried about what his neighbors in Ballymena might think. Irish reporting at its very best.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/laim-neesons-taken-islam-afraid-3183331

If he truly thought that then he would convert will they, nil they.

Bannasidhe · 04-03-2014 02:09PM

:eek:

Edit: Unclear if this is an authentic quote from Ray Comfort...but, sadly there are people who think like this...

oscarBravo · 04-03-2014 02:54PM

Well, here's one authentic quote from him:

/snigger

The Hazards of Belief

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