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Scottish Independence

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    #572
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    There's no question of them losing their seat. Russia didn't lose theirs when the Soviet Union split.

    Scotland would however lose theirs.


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    #573
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Delusions of grandeur is correct, have you actually seen what the UK Government is doing to the military so that they can still pretend to be a world power? Insufficient boots, equipment and transport just so they can say 'we woz there'.

    The whole sorry state of the 'Poppy Appeal' & 'Help for Heroes' tells you exactly what the UK Government thinks of their military personnel

    The mask slowly slips away.

    iirc, a recent report classified the UK as having the largest global influence after the US. I'm sure you enjoyed reading it.


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    #574
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The mask slowly slips away.

    iirc, a recent report classified the UK as having the largest global influence after the US. I'm sure you enjoyed reading it.

    As I said - several agendas.


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    #575
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    First Up wrote: »
    Scotland would however lose theirs.

    Not so much lose a seat, as lose their representation (being part of the UK and all ... ) and have to start over.


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    #576
    bobcoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭bobcoffee


    Not like their going to lose out on much at all.
    Since when is the last time you heard Scotland being vocal world wide.
    Their under the thumb of the UK anyways.

    Believe saying "UK would be losing a seat" would be more accurate rather then Scotland.


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    #577
    fundi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭fundi


    Scotland would be worse off economically and every way if they were independent. There would be lack of economy of scale in dealing with diplomatic matters, embassies, you name it.

    Think of Japan for example, which consists of some islands. If one of these islands was independent do you think Japan would have been successful as it was?

    What next? Sicily independent of Italy? Basque region of Spain independent.

    Scottish independence will not happen as it needs agreement of all 25 EC countries, and Spain for one will not condone it.


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    #578
    bobcoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭bobcoffee


    Yes well I believe Scotland should stay, for number of reasons, mainly corruptions and them not getting what is needed to function as a country.

    Still the EU comments just shows how corrupt the EU is with dealings on these matters.
    Spain has a lot to fear atm as 2 regions with in its country really don't want to be there.
    It is no business of the EU for force these situations through fear and hostilities (diplomatic wise).

    Chances are Scotland won't leave but Basque and Catalonia are a different case altogether.
    Comparing them to the north would be a better comparison.


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    #579
    dlouth15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    fundi wrote: »
    Scottish independence will not happen as it needs agreement of all 25 EC countries, and Spain for one will not condone it.
    I think you might be confusing Scottish independence with entry to the EU after or during the process of independence.


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    #580
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    fundi wrote: »
    Scotland would be worse off economically and every way if they were independent. There would be lack of economy of scale in dealing with diplomatic matters, embassies, you name it.

    Think of Japan for example, which consists of some islands. If one of these islands was independent do you think Japan would have been successful as it was?

    What next? Sicily independent of Italy? Basque region of Spain independent.

    Scottish independence will not happen as it needs agreement of all 25 EC countries, and Spain for one will not condone it.

    You are right in saying that Scotland would lose economically but you are confusing the independence vote with the separate matter of EU membership. Scotland can be become independent if it votes for it - nothing to do with the EU. However an independent Scotland joining the EU would need the agreement of all (28) member states.


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    #581
    dlouth15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    First Up wrote: »
    However an independent Scotland joining the EU would need the agreement of all (28) member states.
    However it also needs to be added that no country has said that they would oppose Scotland's entry either.


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    #582
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    First Up wrote: »
    You are right in saying that Scotland would lose economically but you are confusing the independence vote with the separate matter of EU membership. Scotland can be become independent if it votes for it - nothing to do with the EU. However an independent Scotland joining the EU would need the agreement of all (28) member states.

    Would a newly independent England, Wales and Northern Ireland not also need the same? Sauce for the goose etc..


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    #583
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Scotland would be worse off economically and every way if they were independent. There would be lack of economy of scale in dealing with diplomatic matters, embassies, you name it.

    Nonsense. Big is not always better. Should Singapore rejoin Malaysia?


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    #584
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    dlouth15 wrote: »
    However it also needs to be added that no country has said that they would oppose Scotland's entry either.

    Not quite the same as saying they will support it.


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    #585
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    feargale wrote: »
    Would a newly independent England, Wales and Northern Ireland not also need the same? Sauce for the goose etc..

    Need the same what?


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    #586
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    feargale wrote: »
    Would a newly independent England, Wales and Northern Ireland not also need the same? Sauce for the goose etc..

    nope, even the SNP say that the (r)UK would be the continuing state - its Scotland leaving and setting up a new legal entity, not two new legal entities being formed at the same time.

    given the likely 'friction' in the divorce negotiations, the (R)UK will probably threaten to make life hard in EU accession talks - its not just Spain that gets to say no, London could as well. every serious person wants an amicable relationship where both countries work hard to make the whole thing as easy as possible, but the (R)UK has a very big stick, and if it doesn't get what it wants/needs, it will be forced by internal politics to use it.


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    #587
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Nonsense. Big is not always better. Should Singapore rejoin Malaysia?

    Singapore doesn't do 70% of its business with Malaysia, the way Scotland does with the rest of the UK.


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    #588
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    First Up wrote: »
    Need the same what?

    Oh dear! Would newly independent England, Wales and Northern Ireland not need the agreement of all EU member states to join the EU? Citing the sauce for the goose principle.


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    #589
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    given the likely 'friction' in the divorce negotiations, the (R)UK will probably threaten to make life hard in EU accession talks - its not just Spain that gets to say no, London could as well. every serious person wants an amicable relationship where both countries work hard to make the whole thing as easy as possible, but the (R)UK has a very big stick, and if it doesn't get what it wants/needs, it will be forced by internal politics to use it.

    If rUK is the only successor, then Scotland need not bother with national debt and the like.
    Singapore doesn't do 70% of its business with Malaysia, the way Scotland does with the rest of the UK.

    Perhaps it did at one time. Ireland did most business with the UK before becoming independent, not so much now.


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    #590
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    feargale wrote: »
    Oh dear! Would newly independent England, Wales and Northern Ireland not need the agreement of all EU member states to join the EU? Citing the sauce for the goose principle.

    The United Kingdom will continue to exist, with or without Scotland as part of it. Scotland's departure would not affect UK membership of the EU.


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    #591
    dlouth15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    First Up wrote: »
    The United Kingdom will continue to exist, with or without Scotland as part of it. Scotland's departure would not affect UK membership.
    The rUK (name to be determined) would remain as part of the EU but under terms that would have to be renegotiated.


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    #592
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    ardmacha wrote: »
    If rUK is the only successor, then Scotland need not bother with national debt and the like....

    and if it does so, the (r)UK will block its application to join the EU.


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    #593
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    ardmacha wrote: »
    If rUK is the only successor, then Scotland need not bother with national debt and the like.



    Perhaps it did at one time. Ireland did most business with the UK before becoming independent, not so much now.

    Ireland did most of its business with the UK until the mid 1970's and it continues to be by far the most important market for indigenous Irish companies. We diversified not because of independence but because of an export led economic strategy fifty years later that encouraged foreign investment, including through our membership of the EU.

    Small and medium sized Scottish companies depend overwhelmingly on the English market. If Scotland has barriers to exporting to England (including a different currency for example) it will hit them hard. If Scotland is not a member of the EU, it will not be an attractive base for foreign investment.


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    #594
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    dlouth15 wrote: »
    The rUK (name to be determined) would remain as part of the EU but under terms that would have to be renegotiated.

    i'm not being rude, but whats your source for that?

    its not what the EU is saying...


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    #595
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    dlouth15 wrote: »
    The rUK (name to be determined) would remain as part of the EU but under terms that would have to be renegotiated.

    In what way?


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    #596
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    dlouth15 wrote: »
    However it also needs to be added that no country has said that they would oppose Scotland's entry either.

    We have gone over this millions of times now it seems, and you still don't seem to get it.

    Nobody is going to publicly oppose Scotland's entry.

    Behind the scenes, they will put obstacles in the way, the Spanish will look for fishing rights, the French will look to revise the number of seats in the European Parliament, the Germans will look to reduce the number of Commissioners. All of these are reasonable things to say/do but add up to delaying or preventing Scottish entry while saying in public that they respect the Scottish peoples' decisions blah, blah, blah.


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    #597
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    OS119 wrote: »
    and if it does so, the (r)UK will block its application to join the EU.

    And a bit more. I don't think even the most starry-eyed Scottish nationalists expect to be able to walk away with their hands in their pockets.


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    #598
    dlouth15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    Godge wrote: »
    We have gone over this millions of times now it seems, and you still don't seem to get it.
    But if you don't mind me saying so, the arguments you put forward are weak and repeating them over and over again doesn't make them strong arguments.

    What you seem to have in your head is that Scotland becoming independent is a hugely controversial thing among the peoples of Europe. I've seen no evidence for that. Certainly neither you nor anyone else on this thread has put forward any. The sort of thing you would reasonably expect to read would be editorials in newspapers and the like in European countries opposing Scottish independence on the basis of national self-interest.

    The reason it would not be controversial is that the rUK is willingly ceding Scotland in the event of a yes vote. It is being done in a fully legal and democratic way.

    All I've seen is your "theory" that there would be a lot of animosity towards an independent Scotland and none of this theory takes into account the pragmatic interest of maintaining continuity to the greatest degree possible.


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    #599
    dlouth15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    OS119 wrote: »
    i'm not being rude, but whats your source for that?

    its not what the EU is saying...
    I think it was David Edward, former judge with the CJEU who mentioned it in front of the Scottish parliamentary committee but I will have to check.

    It didn't strike me as strange when he said this however, although I hadn't given it a huge amount of thought up to that point.


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    #600
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    dlouth15 wrote: »
    But if you don't mind me saying so, the arguments you put forward are weak and repeating them over and over again doesn't make them strong arguments.

    What you seem to have in your head is that Scotland becoming independent is a hugely controversial thing among the peoples of Europe. I've seen no evidence for that. Certainly neither you nor anyone else on this thread has put forward any. The sort of thing you would reasonably expect to read would be editorials in newspapers and the like in European countries opposing Scottish independence on the basis of national self-interest.

    The reason it would not be controversial is that the rUK is willingly ceding Scotland in the event of a yes vote. It is being done in a fully legal and democratic way.

    All I've seen is your "theory" that there would be a lot of animosity towards an independent Scotland and none of this theory takes into account the pragmatic interest of maintaining continuity to the greatest degree possible.

    You cannot say on the one hand that the Europeans have no interest in Scotland and say on the other that the pragmatic interest of maintaining continuity to the greatest degree possible is paramount. If they don't care either way, then they don't care about Scotland continuing in the EU.

    You are also right, that, in isolation, Europeans don't give a rat's arse about what Scotland does, it is only the implications for their own domestic political situations that concerns them. Unfortunately, nothing happens in isolation, not even Scotland's vote. And if that means the Catalans, the Flemish, or the Transylvanians are encouraged on the way to independence, then yes, because of domestic political interests they will frustrate Scotland's ambitions.

    You see they are only looking after their own self-interest.


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    #601
    cmore123
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭cmore123


    Two points.... first, we hear that the uk would not allow the new Scottish state to use sterling. That can't be right - we pegged our pound exactly to sterling from its inception to 1979. Secondly, if other EU countries could potentially block this separation, even if the scots voted for it and the rest of the uk didn't object, does that mean that (as a separate issue) a future agreement - however far away it might be - to reunite Ireland could be blocked by Finland, Austria or Malta?


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