Unfoldable buggies on Dublin Bus - why?

TheBandicoot · 22-02-2014 01:10PM #1

Why do some parents attempt to take the bus with buggies that can not be folded down or otherwise stowed if the wheelchair bay is occupied(by another buggy or a wheelchair)? Having seen this happen a few times this week on the 39a and the parent having to wait for the next bus(which might have the same problem), it seems obvious to me that people should realise and plan accordingly.

I admit to being ignorant of buggy technology and babies needs here, maybe foldable buggies are not suitable all the time.

monument · 22-02-2014 01:41PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

maybe foldable buggies are not suitable all the time.

You've answered your own question there. There's a number of reasons, here's some examples:

-- newborns should be flat which requires bulkier prams than the ones which can be easily folded and stored on a bus

-- the smaller foldable buggys are only really suited to toddles and a little beyond

-- mothers may not be back to full strength after giving birth (for more than a few reasons)

-- parents may need to be also looking after another child

-- parents may need to carry shopping etc

-- even where somebody helps or offers to getting into the bus there may not be that help at the end of the trip

At the end of the day, if we want a large modal shift away from cars and to sustainable transport -- and a shift which lasts longer than just up to when a family has children -- and in that regard Dublin Bus as it stands is not set up to accommodate families very well.

TheBandicoot · 22-02-2014 01:45PM

So you suggest changing the bus design? What kind of layout or design would you have in mind?

cdebru · 22-02-2014 01:55PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Why do some parents attempt to take the bus with buggies that can not be folded down or otherwise stowed if the wheelchair bay is occupied(by another buggy or a wheelchair)? Having seen this happen a few times this week on the 39a and the parent having to wait for the next bus(which might have the same problem), it seems obvious to me that people should realise and plan accordingly.

I admit to being ignorant of buggy technology and babies needs here, maybe foldable buggies are not suitable all the time.

Most often it is just laziness, accompanied by ignorance as to how the buggy/pram actually folds.

monument · 22-02-2014 02:03PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

So you suggest changing the bus design? What kind of layout or design would you have in mind?

I'd suggest the wider Dart Underground project, and more surface Luas.

BRT can be designed to offer more wheelchair and/or pram spaces, but on-street Luas would be preferable and a more attractive solution.

Possable Metro after Dart, but not before it.

TheBandicoot · 22-02-2014 02:04PM

Can't argue with that monument.

cdebru · 22-02-2014 02:06PM

monument wrote: »

You've answered your own question there. There's a number of reasons, here's some examples:

-- newborns should be flat which requires bulkier prams than the ones which can be easily folded and stored on a bus

-- the smaller foldable buggys are only really suited to toddles and a little beyond

-- mothers may not be back to full strength after giving birth (for more than a few reasons)

-- parents may need to be also looking after another child

-- parents may need to carry shopping etc

-- even where somebody helps or offers to getting into the bus there may not be that help at the end of the trip

At the end of the day, if we want a large modal shift away from cars and to sustainable transport -- and a shift which lasts longer than just up to when a family has children -- and in that regard Dublin Bus as it stands is not set up to accommodate families very well.

You have to fold up your buggy and take the child out to go in the car as well. Short of removing all downstairs seats which would massively discommode all those without children young enough to need a buggy/pram which is the vast vast majority of the population not much you can do with Dublin Bus.

LXFlyer · 22-02-2014 02:25PM

monument wrote: »

You've answered your own question there. There's a number of reasons, here's some examples:

-- newborns should be flat which requires bulkier prams than the ones which can be easily folded and stored on a bus

-- the smaller foldable buggys are only really suited to toddles and a little beyond

-- mothers may not be back to full strength after giving birth (for more than a few reasons)

-- parents may need to be also looking after another child

-- parents may need to carry shopping etc

-- even where somebody helps or offers to getting into the bus there may not be that help at the end of the trip

At the end of the day, if we want a large modal shift away from cars and to sustainable transport -- and a shift which lasts longer than just up to when a family has children -- and in that regard Dublin Bus as it stands is not set up to accommodate families very well.

Rather than (as usual) blaming Dublin Bus, perhaps it would be more apt to actually focus on bus design. The vehicles used by Dublin Bus are off-the-shelf designs used throughout these islands and as such I think that just blaming the bus company is a bit much.

There is a limit to what can be done on a standard double deck bus as to allow more space for buggies would mean possibly another 4 seats given up.

monument · 22-02-2014 06:14PM

cdebru wrote: »

You have to fold up your buggy and take the child out to go in the car as well.

You do indeed have to take your child out of a car but that's not comparing like with like.

With cars you are on your own time and not rushing and you always have seats for your self and the child's seat. You only have to transfer the baby/child (or baby in a transferable seat) from the buggy to the car seat and then you have loads of time to then deal with the buggy once the baby is safely in the car -- with a bus you're potentially left to and are expected to fold a buggy while holding a baby or toddler or while looking after a child at the same time and than carry buggy and baby into the back of a bus and pay / scan a leap card at the same time.

That's without talking about a second child or carry shopping or a changing bag etc.

cdebru wrote: »

Short of removing all downstairs seats which would massively discommode all those without children young enough to need a buggy/pram which is the vast vast majority of the population not much you can do with Dublin Bus.

I'm not suggesting removing any (never mind all) downstairs seats. I'm suggesting a public transport system ill-fitted to mass sustainable transport.

The majority of the population end up having children and the majority use public transport in more limited ways than a lot of, if not most EU cities. Highly likely nearly all EU capitals.

With children and other cases where the transport system fails users and people turn to cars, it's more often the case of people partly or fully turning their backs on public transport for good.

lxflyer wrote: »

Rather than (as usual) blaming Dublin Bus, perhaps it would be more apt to actually focus on bus design. The vehicles used by Dublin Bus are off-the-shelf designs used throughout these islands and as such I think that just blaming the bus company is a bit much.

There is a limit to what can be done on a standard double deck bus as to allow more space for buggies would mean possibly another 4 seats given up.

I'm not blaming Dublin Bus, I'm blaming a system not fit for purpose and that's more down to ministers, TDs, councilors, officials and voters than it down to a company which has been neglected and abused by successive governments.

As for "throughout these islands" -- transport isn't very sustainable in a large percentage of these islands. There's far better examples.

pablo128 · 22-02-2014 06:21PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Rather than (as usual) blaming Dublin Bus, perhaps it would be more apt to actually focus on bus design. The vehicles used by Dublin Bus are off-the-shelf designs used throughout these islands and as such I think that just blaming the bus company is a bit much.

There is a limit to what can be done on a standard double deck bus as to allow more space for buggies would mean possibly another 4 seats given up.

Cr@p. I've used public transport around Europe, and Ireland is the only country I can't fit into the seats. I'm 6'3" and out of 80 or so seats on a Dublin bus, I can maybe sit in 5 of them. I'm sure they can spec how many seats are fitted to the buses.

ted1 · 22-02-2014 06:25PM

All buggys are foldable however once on the bus the following events occur.

1. Bus is moving
2. No place to put child when taking out if buggy to collapse it
3. No room to collapse it
4. Shopping bags, changing bags in carrier prevent it from collapsing.
5. Child is asleep and shouldn't be woken

LXFlyer · 22-02-2014 06:38PM

pablo128 wrote: »

Cr@p. I've used public transport around Europe, and Ireland is the only country I can't fit into the seats. I'm 6'3" and out of 80 or so seats on a Dublin bus, I can maybe sit in 5 of them. I'm sure they can spec how many seats are fitted to the buses.

monument wrote: »

You do indeed have to take your child out of a car but that's not comparing like with like.

With cars you are on your own time and not rushing and you always have seats for your self and the child's seat. You only have to transfer the baby/child (or baby in a transferable seat) from the buggy to the car seat and then you have loads of time to then deal with the buggy once the baby is safely in the car -- with a bus you're potentially left to and are expected to fold a buggy while holding a baby or toddler or while looking after a child at the same time and than carry buggy and baby into the back of a bus and pay / scan a leap card at the same time.

That's without talking about a second child or carry shopping or a changing bag etc.

I'm not suggesting removing any (never mind all) downstairs seats. I'm suggesting a public transport system ill-fitted to mass sustainable transport.

The majority of the population end up having children and the majority use public transport in more limited ways than a lot of, if not most EU cities. Highly likely nearly all EU capitals.

With children and other cases where the transport system fails users and people turn to cars, it's more often the case of people partly or fully turning their backs on public transport for good.

I'm not blaming Dublin Bus, I'm blaming a system not fit for purpose and that's more down to ministers, TDs, councilors, officials and voters than it down to a company which has been neglected and abused by successive governments.

As for "throughout these islands" -- transport isn't very sustainable in a large percentage of these islands. There's far better examples.

I think you will find that Dublin Bus' vehicles are spec'd very similarly to virtually every operator in Britain and Ireland, which, given that they are the primary other market for double deck right hand drive vehicles is really not that surprising.

The number of seats on a standard Dublin Bus vehicle has already dropped from 72 to 69 (note - not anywhere near 80), and if you enlarge the buggy/wheelchair space any more it would drop to 65.

There has to be a trade-off made at some point and an element of realism in what can be expected from a bus service versus a rapid transit service.

Apart from LUAS/Rail, Dublin has always had a bus service, and as such, the vehicles are of a standard design that does offer accessibility within the space available.

Aard · 22-02-2014 06:45PM

monument wrote: »

With children and other cases where the transport system fails users and people turn to cars, it's more often the case of people partly or fully turning their backs on public transport for good.

And when people turn their backs on public transport, they buy a car. When they buy a car, they're incentivised to live further away. Living remotely and at low density is harder to service by public transport. The cycle is self-reinforcing.

Pretzill · 22-02-2014 10:50PM

I remember many years ago trying to get on a bus with toddler, baby and boy and a bloody buggy that wouldn't fold - then the area between the seats were far narrower and there was nowhere to put a complete buggy - it was an exasperating experience!

But the buses are designed better now also most stops have time checks - 2 mins to bus time to take baby out and fold the buggy - I would do that. But in reality if I had more than two small children I think I'd try to avoid buses.

Dravokivich · 23-02-2014 01:19AM

It was the only requirment I had when we got ours. Folds down easy. Has a carry cot which pulls off the frame quickly too.

Herself rarely gets the bus, but shes always ready to take it down before boarding, or if needed on the bus.

dfx- · 23-02-2014 02:13AM

pablo128 wrote: »

Cr@p. I've used public transport around Europe, and Ireland is the only country I can't fit into the seats. I'm 6'3" and out of 80 or so seats on a Dublin bus, I can maybe sit in 5 of them. I'm sure they can spec how many seats are fitted to the buses.

That depends on the bus type. I'm 6'4" and certain seats are a no-go on all types. The second seat in front of the stairs upstairs for example. Over the wheel arches are also impossible in the EV/VG and GT.

The worst for legroom is the EV, particularly downstairs.

AV is by far the best.

monument · 23-02-2014 09:09AM

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you will find that Dublin Bus' vehicles are spec'd very similarly to virtually every operator in Britain and Ireland, which, given that they are the primary other market for double deck right hand drive vehicles is really not that surprising.

The number of seats on a standard Dublin Bus vehicle has already dropped from 72 to 69 (note - not anywhere near 80), and if you enlarge the buggy/wheelchair space any more it would drop to 65.

There has to be a trade-off made at some point and an element of realism in what can be expected from a bus service versus a rapid transit service.

Apart from LUAS/Rail, Dublin has always had a bus service, and as such, the vehicles are of a standard design that does offer accessibility within the space available.

As I said:

As for "throughout these islands" / "Britain and Ireland" etc -- transport isn't very sustainable in a large percentage of these islands. There's far better examples.

I'm not suggesting removing any seats.

How Strange · 23-02-2014 09:17AM

I used to think the same before I had kids but what do you do with a baby while trying to fold a buggy if you're on your own? What do you do when you have to get the baby and the buggy off the bus?

I tried to get a bus when my baby was 10 weeks old. A woman with a toddler got on before me and she didn't fold her buggy so the bus driver said I couldn't get on unless I folded up mine. I thought he was joking as I was in my own with a newborn baby and no one offered to help.

I know avoid buses when I've got a buggy unless I've absolutely no choice.

Gatling · 23-02-2014 10:06AM

How Strange wrote: »

I used to think the same before I had kids but what do you do with a baby while trying to fold a buggy if you're on your own? What do you do when you have to get the baby and the buggy off the bus?

I tried to get a bus when my baby was 10 weeks old. A woman with a toddler got on before me and she didn't fold her buggy so the bus driver said I couldn't get on unless I folded up mine. I thought he was joking as I was in my own with a newborn baby and no one offered to help.

I know avoid buses when I've got a buggy unless I've absolutely no choice.

Happens every single day across the country ,
Parents getting into a bus on there own having to fold down buggies all by themselfs especially since the drivers started enforcing the single buggy rule ,
As a bloke I've had worse had major shoulder surgery last year 2 weeks after my op I had to get a bus with my then 6 month old ,first bus I got on sorry you have to fold due to stroller filled with shopping in the bay with no child in it ,try folding a buggy with one arm heavily immobilised and using your weak arm ,fold and hold a wiggling 6 month old while you get dirty looks for holding up the bus

AlekSmart · 23-02-2014 03:15PM

Gatling wrote: »

Happens every single day across the country ,
Parents getting into a bus on there own having to fold down buggies all by themselfs especially since the drivers started enforcing the single buggy rule ,

As a bloke I've had worse had major shoulder surgery last year 2 weeks after my op I had to get a bus with my then 6 month old ,first bus I got on sorry you have to fold due to stroller filled with shopping in the bay with no child in it ,try folding a buggy with one arm heavily immobilised and using your weak arm ,fold and hold a wiggling 6 month old while you get dirty looks for holding up the bus

I'm not sure where you got the "started enforcing" the Single Buggy Rule,Gatling.

The rule,as you call it has always been there since Day 1 of the introduction of the Low Floor to Dublin Bus around 2000.

Part of the issue is that the requirements of Mass Transit for the Masses,largely presupposes that the Mass of these Masses are ambulatory to a normal degree.

The Low Floor concept only expanded the parameters of what defines "ambulatory"..ie: It broadened the numbers now able to use Public Transport with greater ease than heretofore.

As an example,one of my regular wheelchair bound customers,began his use of the Bus Service as a daily user of the Bombardier K type bus,which required his mother to physically lift him from his wheelchair and into the Bus,before folding the chair and stowing it for the journey...TWICE a Day-5 Days a WEEK during school term.

Twenty years later,this young man is fully capable of using the entire Dublin Bus network in his large powered wheelchair without assistance from anybody.

However,he has,on occasion,had to be left behind after a Buggy Pusher chose NOT to fold and stow their buggy (as is their right).
Put at it's simplest,a Bus designed for Mass Transit has LIMITS to what it can cater for...and a Full Size Powered Wheelchair PLUS a Full Size Occupied Buggy exceeds what can be safely catered for when the remainder of a Bus's passenger circulation requirements are taken into consideration.

The "Single Buggy" rule,now expanded in newer vehicles to a "Two Buggy" or "Wheelchair AND Buggy" is largely based upon simple commonsense and operational reality...two elements not so common at all in daily life ?

FWIW,I always advise passengers using buggys as shopping-trolleys that I WILL require them to fold or leave the bus in the event of a wheelchair/occupied buggy presenting for travel later in the journey...If they will not acknowledge this I will ask them to remove and stow their load before going any further....I can assure Gatling,that this sort of action from a Busdriver,immediately turns him/her into PUBLIC ENEMY No 1 !!!.....with the inevitable stream of pleasanteries resulting for the remainder of the journey...however, I always attempt to wish those customers a Pleasant Remainder to their Day as they exit...;)

Mass Transit is just that.....Transit for the Masses

SpaceTime · 23-02-2014 03:21PM

I never understand how continental cities with equally narrow streets all seem to have flat floored 'bendy busses'

The only bendy bus I've ever used in Dublin was very poorly designed and seemed to bounce etc.

Are we just using a ridiculously bad spec?

I've been on articulated buses in France on cobble stones that didn't shake. The streets they operated on were also no wider (often narrower) then Dublin.

I really can't understand what the issue is. Seems like the same inability to have middle doors or sensible ticketing systems due to various CIE hangups.

AlekSmart · 23-02-2014 03:39PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I never understand how continental cities with equally narrow streets all seem to have flat floored 'bendy busses'

The only bendy bus I've ever used in Dublin was very poorly designed and seemed to bounce etc.

Are we just using a ridiculously bad spec?

I've been on articulated buses in France on cobble stones that didn't shake. The streets they operated on were also no wider (often narrower) then Dublin.

I really can't understand what the issue is. Seems like the same inability to have middle doors or sensible ticketing systems due to various CIE hangups.

Nuttin to do with the issue at hand here,but worth addressing nonetheless.

The continental Bus model generally approaches Public Transport from a different viewpoint.

The Bus Journeys often tend to be undertaken as part of a greater multi-mode commute often involving transit between a Tube/Metro station and/or another Bus Route.

Most Major Continental Cities have a VASTLY more resourced and subvented SYSTEM,usually seen as an INTEGRAL Part of that City/Community's Administration.

This leads to a far wider experience of "Systems" which interlink and Inter-operate together which leads to individual Bus Journeys being of shorter duration than here at home,where individual Peak Hour Bus journey times of 1hr + are not uncommon.

Put simply,our customer preference is for a SEAT,and one downstairs at that :cool: !

It would not be unusual to see legal lettering on a continental citybus referring to c. 20 Seats,but a TOTAL capacity of c.140+ !!!....Up close and personal,or intimate as the French might say

The issues regarding our Roads Design and Construction are indeed valid,but as yet unrecognised by our Administrators...I too have come across French Cobblestone and Patchwork Quilt repairs which left our main road surfaces feeling like the surface of Mars looks !!...why ?...Laziness and Cost Cutting I'd suspect...but sweet FA to do with CIE's "hangup's"...real,

or imagined.

SpaceTime · 23-02-2014 03:51PM

Just from an end users perspective I can see nothing amazingly different in medium sized French cities.

Road surfaces aren't perfect and are often rough. Bus stops aren't any different from here. Ticketing is done on a Luas style trust model that dramatically speeds up boarding and exiting via multiple doors.

Onboard information systems that tell you all about the route you're on using TV screen type displays.

Many routes just have better designed vechcles that accommodate more wheel chairs, buggies and even bikes off peak in newer stuff.

I just see excuses for poor quality service here over and over. Similar in Britain too. Weird bus designs not really used outside of these two countries.

To me it looks like we just photocopy rather mediocre British models and implement them even worse : no middle doors, taking a decade+ to get Leap Card to work etc etc

The Luas for example used French style barrier free 'trust' ticketing without any issues proving ireland doesn't have the unique fare evading issues CIE seem to think exist.

Aard · 23-02-2014 04:04PM

It's one thing if you're asked to wait for the next 46a. No problem - 10 minutes max. What if you're told to wait for the next 17? There's only a handful of routes that run at high frequency in Dublin, and thus what could be described as being "family friendly".

I'm not pointing the finger at Dublin Bus (or even the NTA - yet), but merely pointing out that between inadequate public transport and a generally homogenous housing offering, families in Dublin have little option but to settle for a suburban car-oriented lifestyle.

SpaceTime · 23-02-2014 04:07PM

It's like the states more than Europe in many respects.

Sprawling suburbs with generally poor public transport and very high car dependency.

Aard · 23-02-2014 04:17PM

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. It's not as bad as most similarly-sized US cities. I really believe that the problem in Dublin is poor network design, rather than sprawling suburbs.

AlekSmart · 23-02-2014 06:59PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's like the states more than Europe in many respects.

Sprawling suburbs with generally poor public transport and very high car dependency.

Spot-On,SpaceTime...however it may reflect more of a Trans-Atlantic attitude rather than an actual constructed problem.

Aard :It's one thing if you're asked to wait for the next 46a. No problem - 10 minutes max. What if you're told to wait for the next 17? There's only a handful of routes that run at high frequency in Dublin, and thus what could be described as being "family friendly".

I'm not pointing the finger at Dublin Bus (or even the NTA - yet), but merely pointing out that between inadequate public transport and a generally homogenous housing offering, families in Dublin have little option but to settle for a suburban car-oriented lifestyle.

It may well be chicken and egg,but private car ownership remains a badge of achievement to a substantial amount of Irish people....whereas percieved dependence upon Public Transport is taken to indicate a less than robust individual....Junior Minister Alan Kelly's widely reported remarks were somewhat nearer the mark than many might like to admit.

SpaceTime:I just see excuses for poor quality service here over and over. Similar in Britain too. Weird bus designs not really used outside of these two countries.

To me it looks like we just photocopy rather mediocre British models and implement them even worse : no middle doors, taking a decade+ to get Leap Card to work etc etc

The Luas for example used French style barrier free 'trust' ticketing without any issues proving ireland doesn't have the unique fare evading issues CIE seem to think exist.

It's worthwhile noting that Irish Rail's ticketing system is essentially a French Crouzet system.
Equally noteworthy is that 30 years ago Dublin's Bus network trialled the Crouzet ticketing equipment before adopting the UK's Wayfarer system instead.

Suggesting that the Luas "open" system is operating "without issues" is failing to recognize that very real "Issues" face Transdev/RPA Staff every day,indeeed it is worth noting the similarity between the recently introduced Transdev/RPA/Garda Checking blitzes and the long established RATP/Police checking operations oft seen on the Paris Metro and Bus services.

Comparing ourselves with the French,or indeed mainland European Urban Transport regime's is always fraught with danger and disappointment,as any similarities begin and end with the hardware...The Bus and the Stop,after that,all else is of a mindset FAR beyond Irish Administrative comprehension.

When one points to comparisons such as the 17 vs 46A,it's worthwhile delving deeper into who pays for the French model,and HOW it's paid for,in order to arrive at any meaningful comparisons.

Even now,with the shiny new NTA appearing to be all modern and eclecticly European,there remain worrying indications that Irish solutions to Irish problems will continue to be the preferred option ?

endacl · 23-02-2014 07:00PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

So you suggest changing the bus design? What kind of layout or design would you have in mind?

Buggy tow bars behind the bus?

On second thoughts...

Aard · 23-02-2014 08:10PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may well be chicken and egg,but private car ownership remains a badge of achievement to a substantial amount of Irish people....whereas percieved dependence upon Public Transport is taken to indicate a less than robust individual....Junior Minister Alan Kelly's widely reported remarks were somewhat nearer the mark than many might like to admit.

Indeed. There is even a thread in After Hours wondering if men over the age of 25 who can't drive are "weird", with a sizable minority in agreement. No doubt in "real" Ireland (as opposed to the progressive Boards.ie population) there are even more out there who would agree.

SpaceTime · 23-02-2014 08:33PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Spot-On,SpaceTime...however it may reflect more of a Trans-Atlantic attitude rather than an actual constructed problem.

It may well be chicken and egg,but private car ownership remains a badge of achievement to a substantial amount of Irish people....whereas percieved dependence upon Public Transport is taken to indicate a less than robust individual....Junior Minister Alan Kelly's widely reported remarks were somewhat nearer the mark than many might like to admit.

It's worthwhile noting that Irish Rail's ticketing system is essentially a French Crouzet system.
Equally noteworthy is that 30 years ago Dublin's Bus network trialled the Crouzet ticketing equipment before adopting the UK's Wayfarer system instead.

Suggesting that the Luas "open" system is operating "without issues" is failing to recognize that very real "Issues" face Transdev/RPA Staff every day,indeeed it is worth noting the similarity between the recently introduced Transdev/RPA/Garda Checking blitzes and the long established RATP/Police checking operations oft seen on the Paris Metro and Bus services.

Comparing ourselves with the French,or indeed mainland European Urban Transport regime's is always fraught with danger and disappointment,as any similarities begin and end with the hardware...The Bus and the Stop,after that,all else is of a mindset FAR beyond Irish Administrative comprehension.

When one points to comparisons such as the 17 vs 46A,it's worthwhile delving deeper into who pays for the French model,and HOW it's paid for,in order to arrive at any meaningful comparisons.

Even now,with the shiny new NTA appearing to be all modern and eclecticly European,there remain worrying indications that Irish solutions to Irish problems will continue to be the preferred option ?

Inspection is an absolutely part of those systems. They've similar levels of checking and bigger fare evasion issues elsewhere.

They take a view that it's more important to get people in and out quickly than to individually inspect each ticket and most people pay.

These notions of unique Irish problems and mentalities are utter nonsense. The French aren't known for their orderly rule following either, yet it works.

The Luas has been a resounding success in Dublin too.

I just see excuse after exuse as to why we can't do x, y, z.

The biggest challenge and only fundamental difference is very low density housing relative to most if Europe (although western France is lower density than most too).

As for ticketing, it doesn't really matter if it's made by Crouzet or Wayfarer or anyone else. The issue is how it's used, not the technology behind it. Several companies produce excellent ticketing systems, you can implement them umpteen ways though.

Ireland's never used a French-style open ticketing system on bus networks. The usual setup over there at the simplest level is a ticket that expires after a set time (especially in smaller cities) usually 1 hour.
You just validate the ticket when you board and it can be as simple as a magnetic stripe ticket that gets stamped by a machine on the bus.
That ticket's then valid for a journey of up to a specific time limit, not a single bus / tram / metro route trip.

The nuts and bolts of what company makes it really makes no difference, it's all about how it's planned and implemented.

Gatling · 23-02-2014 10:16PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm not sure where you got the "started enforcing" the Single Buggy Rule,Gatling

Actually its been used heavily on my 2 main routes the 77A and 65B lately sorry folks its not us aka drivers its the regulations 1 buggy or 1 wheelchair ,

In saying that I've seen as stated in an earlier thread a while back 4/5 unfolded buggies on one bus which I thought was bloody reckless ,

My mother was a driver for nearly 20 years so I pretty much know all the crap you guys n gals have to put up with when you ask someone to fold a buggy ,

Unfoldable buggies on Dublin Bus - why?

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