Unfoldable buggies on Dublin Bus - why?

TheBandicoot

Why do some parents attempt to take the bus with buggies that can not be folded down or otherwise stowed if the wheelchair bay is occupied(by another buggy or a wheelchair)? Having seen this happen a few times this week on the 39a and the parent having to wait for the next bus(which might have the same problem), it seems obvious to me that people should realise and plan accordingly.

I admit to being ignorant of buggy technology and babies needs here, maybe foldable buggies are not suitable all the time.

monument

TheBandicoot wrote: »

maybe foldable buggies are not suitable all the time.

You've answered your own question there. There's a number of reasons, here's some examples:

-- newborns should be flat which requires bulkier prams than the ones which can be easily folded and stored on a bus

-- the smaller foldable buggys are only really suited to toddles and a little beyond

-- mothers may not be back to full strength after giving birth (for more than a few reasons)

-- parents may need to be also looking after another child

-- parents may need to carry shopping etc

-- even where somebody helps or offers to getting into the bus there may not be that help at the end of the trip

At the end of the day, if we want a large modal shift away from cars and to sustainable transport -- and a shift which lasts longer than just up to when a family has children -- and in that regard Dublin Bus as it stands is not set up to accommodate families very well.

TheBandicoot

So you suggest changing the bus design? What kind of layout or design would you have in mind?

cdebru

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Why do some parents attempt to take the bus with buggies that can not be folded down or otherwise stowed if the wheelchair bay is occupied(by another buggy or a wheelchair)? Having seen this happen a few times this week on the 39a and the parent having to wait for the next bus(which might have the same problem), it seems obvious to me that people should realise and plan accordingly.

I admit to being ignorant of buggy technology and babies needs here, maybe foldable buggies are not suitable all the time.

Most often it is just laziness, accompanied by ignorance as to how the buggy/pram actually folds.

monument

TheBandicoot wrote: »

So you suggest changing the bus design? What kind of layout or design would you have in mind?

I'd suggest the wider Dart Underground project, and more surface Luas.

BRT can be designed to offer more wheelchair and/or pram spaces, but on-street Luas would be preferable and a more attractive solution.

Possable Metro after Dart, but not before it.

TheBandicoot

Can't argue with that monument.

cdebru

monument wrote: »

You've answered your own question there. There's a number of reasons, here's some examples:

-- newborns should be flat which requires bulkier prams than the ones which can be easily folded and stored on a bus

-- the smaller foldable buggys are only really suited to toddles and a little beyond

-- mothers may not be back to full strength after giving birth (for more than a few reasons)

-- parents may need to be also looking after another child

-- parents may need to carry shopping etc

-- even where somebody helps or offers to getting into the bus there may not be that help at the end of the trip

At the end of the day, if we want a large modal shift away from cars and to sustainable transport -- and a shift which lasts longer than just up to when a family has children -- and in that regard Dublin Bus as it stands is not set up to accommodate families very well.

You have to fold up your buggy and take the child out to go in the car as well. Short of removing all downstairs seats which would massively discommode all those without children young enough to need a buggy/pram which is the vast vast majority of the population not much you can do with Dublin Bus.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

You've answered your own question there. There's a number of reasons, here's some examples:

-- newborns should be flat which requires bulkier prams than the ones which can be easily folded and stored on a bus

-- the smaller foldable buggys are only really suited to toddles and a little beyond

-- mothers may not be back to full strength after giving birth (for more than a few reasons)

-- parents may need to be also looking after another child

-- parents may need to carry shopping etc

-- even where somebody helps or offers to getting into the bus there may not be that help at the end of the trip

At the end of the day, if we want a large modal shift away from cars and to sustainable transport -- and a shift which lasts longer than just up to when a family has children -- and in that regard Dublin Bus as it stands is not set up to accommodate families very well.

Rather than (as usual) blaming Dublin Bus, perhaps it would be more apt to actually focus on bus design. The vehicles used by Dublin Bus are off-the-shelf designs used throughout these islands and as such I think that just blaming the bus company is a bit much.


There is a limit to what can be done on a standard double deck bus as to allow more space for buggies would mean possibly another 4 seats given up.

monument

cdebru wrote: »

You have to fold up your buggy and take the child out to go in the car as well.

You do indeed have to take your child out of a car but that's not comparing like with like.

With cars you are on your own time and not rushing and you always have seats for your self and the child's seat. You only have to transfer the baby/child (or baby in a transferable seat) from the buggy to the car seat and then you have loads of time to then deal with the buggy once the baby is safely in the car -- with a bus you're potentially left to and are expected to fold a buggy while holding a baby or toddler or while looking after a child at the same time and than carry buggy and baby into the back of a bus and pay / scan a leap card at the same time.

That's without talking about a second child or carry shopping or a changing bag etc.

cdebru wrote: »

Short of removing all downstairs seats which would massively discommode all those without children young enough to need a buggy/pram which is the vast vast majority of the population not much you can do with Dublin Bus.

I'm not suggesting removing any (never mind all) downstairs seats. I'm suggesting a public transport system ill-fitted to mass sustainable transport.

The majority of the population end up having children and the majority use public transport in more limited ways than a lot of, if not most EU cities. Highly likely nearly all EU capitals.

With children and other cases where the transport system fails users and people turn to cars, it's more often the case of people partly or fully turning their backs on public transport for good.

lxflyer wrote: »

Rather than (as usual) blaming Dublin Bus, perhaps it would be more apt to actually focus on bus design. The vehicles used by Dublin Bus are off-the-shelf designs used throughout these islands and as such I think that just blaming the bus company is a bit much.


There is a limit to what can be done on a standard double deck bus as to allow more space for buggies would mean possibly another 4 seats given up.

I'm not blaming Dublin Bus, I'm blaming a system not fit for purpose and that's more down to ministers, TDs, councilors, officials and voters than it down to a company which has been neglected and abused by successive governments.

As for "throughout these islands" -- transport isn't very sustainable in a large percentage of these islands. There's far better examples.

pablo128

lxflyer wrote: »

Rather than (as usual) blaming Dublin Bus, perhaps it would be more apt to actually focus on bus design. The vehicles used by Dublin Bus are off-the-shelf designs used throughout these islands and as such I think that just blaming the bus company is a bit much.


There is a limit to what can be done on a standard double deck bus as to allow more space for buggies would mean possibly another 4 seats given up.

Cr@p. I've used public transport around Europe, and Ireland is the only country I can't fit into the seats. I'm 6'3" and out of 80 or so seats on a Dublin bus, I can maybe sit in 5 of them. I'm sure they can spec how many seats are fitted to the buses.

ted1

All buggys are foldable however once on the bus the following events occur.

1. Bus is moving
2. No place to put child when taking out if buggy to collapse it
3. No room to collapse it
4. Shopping bags, changing bags in carrier prevent it from collapsing.
5. Child is asleep and shouldn't be woken

LXFlyer

pablo128 wrote: »

Cr@p. I've used public transport around Europe, and Ireland is the only country I can't fit into the seats. I'm 6'3" and out of 80 or so seats on a Dublin bus, I can maybe sit in 5 of them. I'm sure they can spec how many seats are fitted to the buses.

monument wrote: »

You do indeed have to take your child out of a car but that's not comparing like with like.

With cars you are on your own time and not rushing and you always have seats for your self and the child's seat. You only have to transfer the baby/child (or baby in a transferable seat) from the buggy to the car seat and then you have loads of time to then deal with the buggy once the baby is safely in the car -- with a bus you're potentially left to and are expected to fold a buggy while holding a baby or toddler or while looking after a child at the same time and than carry buggy and baby into the back of a bus and pay / scan a leap card at the same time.

That's without talking about a second child or carry shopping or a changing bag etc.

I'm not suggesting removing any (never mind all) downstairs seats. I'm suggesting a public transport system ill-fitted to mass sustainable transport.

The majority of the population end up having children and the majority use public transport in more limited ways than a lot of, if not most EU cities. Highly likely nearly all EU capitals.

With children and other cases where the transport system fails users and people turn to cars, it's more often the case of people partly or fully turning their backs on public transport for good.

I'm not blaming Dublin Bus, I'm blaming a system not fit for purpose and that's more down to ministers, TDs, councilors, officials and voters than it down to a company which has been neglected and abused by successive governments.

As for "throughout these islands" -- transport isn't very sustainable in a large percentage of these islands. There's far better examples.

I think you will find that Dublin Bus' vehicles are spec'd very similarly to virtually every operator in Britain and Ireland, which, given that they are the primary other market for double deck right hand drive vehicles is really not that surprising.

The number of seats on a standard Dublin Bus vehicle has already dropped from 72 to 69 (note - not anywhere near 80), and if you enlarge the buggy/wheelchair space any more it would drop to 65.

There has to be a trade-off made at some point and an element of realism in what can be expected from a bus service versus a rapid transit service.

Apart from LUAS/Rail, Dublin has always had a bus service, and as such, the vehicles are of a standard design that does offer accessibility within the space available.

Aard

monument wrote: »

With children and other cases where the transport system fails users and people turn to cars, it's more often the case of people partly or fully turning their backs on public transport for good.

And when people turn their backs on public transport, they buy a car. When they buy a car, they're incentivised to live further away. Living remotely and at low density is harder to service by public transport. The cycle is self-reinforcing.

Pretzill

I remember many years ago trying to get on a bus with toddler, baby and boy and a bloody buggy that wouldn't fold - then the area between the seats were far narrower and there was nowhere to put a complete buggy - it was an exasperating experience!

But the buses are designed better now also most stops have time checks - 2 mins to bus time to take baby out and fold the buggy - I would do that. But in reality if I had more than two small children I think I'd try to avoid buses.

Dravokivich

It was the only requirment I had when we got ours. Folds down easy. Has a carry cot which pulls off the frame quickly too.

Herself rarely gets the bus, but shes always ready to take it down before boarding, or if needed on the bus.

dfx-

pablo128 wrote: »

Cr@p. I've used public transport around Europe, and Ireland is the only country I can't fit into the seats. I'm 6'3" and out of 80 or so seats on a Dublin bus, I can maybe sit in 5 of them. I'm sure they can spec how many seats are fitted to the buses.

That depends on the bus type. I'm 6'4" and certain seats are a no-go on all types. The second seat in front of the stairs upstairs for example. Over the wheel arches are also impossible in the EV/VG and GT.

The worst for legroom is the EV, particularly downstairs.

AV is by far the best.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you will find that Dublin Bus' vehicles are spec'd very similarly to virtually every operator in Britain and Ireland, which, given that they are the primary other market for double deck right hand drive vehicles is really not that surprising.

The number of seats on a standard Dublin Bus vehicle has already dropped from 72 to 69 (note - not anywhere near 80), and if you enlarge the buggy/wheelchair space any more it would drop to 65.

There has to be a trade-off made at some point and an element of realism in what can be expected from a bus service versus a rapid transit service.

Apart from LUAS/Rail, Dublin has always had a bus service, and as such, the vehicles are of a standard design that does offer accessibility within the space available.

As I said:

As for "throughout these islands" / "Britain and Ireland" etc -- transport isn't very sustainable in a large percentage of these islands. There's far better examples.

I'm not suggesting removing any seats.

How Strange

I used to think the same before I had kids but what do you do with a baby while trying to fold a buggy if you're on your own? What do you do when you have to get the baby and the buggy off the bus?

I tried to get a bus when my baby was 10 weeks old. A woman with a toddler got on before me and she didn't fold her buggy so the bus driver said I couldn't get on unless I folded up mine. I thought he was joking as I was in my own with a newborn baby and no one offered to help.

I know avoid buses when I've got a buggy unless I've absolutely no choice.

Gatling

How Strange wrote: »

I used to think the same before I had kids but what do you do with a baby while trying to fold a buggy if you're on your own? What do you do when you have to get the baby and the buggy off the bus?

I tried to get a bus when my baby was 10 weeks old. A woman with a toddler got on before me and she didn't fold her buggy so the bus driver said I couldn't get on unless I folded up mine. I thought he was joking as I was in my own with a newborn baby and no one offered to help.

I know avoid buses when I've got a buggy unless I've absolutely no choice.

Happens every single day across the country ,
Parents getting into a bus on there own having to fold down buggies all by themselfs especially since the drivers started enforcing the single buggy rule ,
As a bloke I've had worse had major shoulder surgery last year 2 weeks after my op I had to get a bus with my then 6 month old ,first bus I got on sorry you have to fold due to stroller filled with shopping in the bay with no child in it ,try folding a buggy with one arm heavily immobilised and using your weak arm ,fold and hold a wiggling 6 month old while you get dirty looks for holding up the bus

AlekSmart

Gatling wrote: »

Happens every single day across the country ,
Parents getting into a bus on there own having to fold down buggies all by themselfs especially since the drivers started enforcing the single buggy rule ,

As a bloke I've had worse had major shoulder surgery last year 2 weeks after my op I had to get a bus with my then 6 month old ,first bus I got on sorry you have to fold due to stroller filled with shopping in the bay with no child in it ,try folding a buggy with one arm heavily immobilised and using your weak arm ,fold and hold a wiggling 6 month old while you get dirty looks for holding up the bus

I'm not sure where you got the "started enforcing" the Single Buggy Rule,Gatling.

The rule,as you call it has always been there since Day 1 of the introduction of the Low Floor to Dublin Bus around 2000.

Part of the issue is that the requirements of Mass Transit for the Masses,largely presupposes that the Mass of these Masses are ambulatory to a normal degree.

The Low Floor concept only expanded the parameters of what defines "ambulatory"..ie: It broadened the numbers now able to use Public Transport with greater ease than heretofore.

As an example,one of my regular wheelchair bound customers,began his use of the Bus Service as a daily user of the Bombardier K type bus,which required his mother to physically lift him from his wheelchair and into the Bus,before folding the chair and stowing it for the journey...TWICE a Day-5 Days a WEEK during school term.

Twenty years later,this young man is fully capable of using the entire Dublin Bus network in his large powered wheelchair without assistance from anybody.

However,he has,on occasion,had to be left behind after a Buggy Pusher chose NOT to fold and stow their buggy (as is their right).
Put at it's simplest,a Bus designed for Mass Transit has LIMITS to what it can cater for...and a Full Size Powered Wheelchair PLUS a Full Size Occupied Buggy exceeds what can be safely catered for when the remainder of a Bus's passenger circulation requirements are taken into consideration.

The "Single Buggy" rule,now expanded in newer vehicles to a "Two Buggy" or "Wheelchair AND Buggy" is largely based upon simple commonsense and operational reality...two elements not so common at all in daily life ?

FWIW,I always advise passengers using buggys as shopping-trolleys that I WILL require them to fold or leave the bus in the event of a wheelchair/occupied buggy presenting for travel later in the journey...If they will not acknowledge this I will ask them to remove and stow their load before going any further....I can assure Gatling,that this sort of action from a Busdriver,immediately turns him/her into PUBLIC ENEMY No 1 !!!.....with the inevitable stream of pleasanteries resulting for the remainder of the journey...however, I always attempt to wish those customers a Pleasant Remainder to their Day as they exit...;)

Mass Transit is just that.....Transit for the Masses

SpaceTime

I never understand how continental cities with equally narrow streets all seem to have flat floored 'bendy busses'

The only bendy bus I've ever used in Dublin was very poorly designed and seemed to bounce etc.

Are we just using a ridiculously bad spec?

I've been on articulated buses in France on cobble stones that didn't shake. The streets they operated on were also no wider (often narrower) then Dublin.

I really can't understand what the issue is. Seems like the same inability to have middle doors or sensible ticketing systems due to various CIE hangups.

AlekSmart

SpaceTime wrote: »

I never understand how continental cities with equally narrow streets all seem to have flat floored 'bendy busses'

The only bendy bus I've ever used in Dublin was very poorly designed and seemed to bounce etc.

Are we just using a ridiculously bad spec?

I've been on articulated buses in France on cobble stones that didn't shake. The streets they operated on were also no wider (often narrower) then Dublin.

I really can't understand what the issue is. Seems like the same inability to have middle doors or sensible ticketing systems due to various CIE hangups.

Nuttin to do with the issue at hand here,but worth addressing nonetheless.

The continental Bus model generally approaches Public Transport from a different viewpoint.

The Bus Journeys often tend to be undertaken as part of a greater multi-mode commute often involving transit between a Tube/Metro station and/or another Bus Route.

Most Major Continental Cities have a VASTLY more resourced and subvented SYSTEM,usually seen as an INTEGRAL Part of that City/Community's Administration.

This leads to a far wider experience of "Systems" which interlink and Inter-operate together which leads to individual Bus Journeys being of shorter duration than here at home,where individual Peak Hour Bus journey times of 1hr + are not uncommon.

Put simply,our customer preference is for a SEAT,and one downstairs at that :cool: !

It would not be unusual to see legal lettering on a continental citybus referring to c. 20 Seats,but a TOTAL capacity of c.140+ !!!....Up close and personal,or intimate as the French might say

The issues regarding our Roads Design and Construction are indeed valid,but as yet unrecognised by our Administrators...I too have come across French Cobblestone and Patchwork Quilt repairs which left our main road surfaces feeling like the surface of Mars looks !!...why ?...Laziness and Cost Cutting I'd suspect...but sweet FA to do with CIE's "hangup's"...real, or imagined.

SpaceTime

Just from an end users perspective I can see nothing amazingly different in medium sized French cities.

Road surfaces aren't perfect and are often rough. Bus stops aren't any different from here. Ticketing is done on a Luas style trust model that dramatically speeds up boarding and exiting via multiple doors.

Onboard information systems that tell you all about the route you're on using TV screen type displays.

Many routes just have better designed vechcles that accommodate more wheel chairs, buggies and even bikes off peak in newer stuff.

I just see excuses for poor quality service here over and over. Similar in Britain too. Weird bus designs not really used outside of these two countries.

To me it looks like we just photocopy rather mediocre British models and implement them even worse : no middle doors, taking a decade+ to get Leap Card to work etc etc

The Luas for example used French style barrier free 'trust' ticketing without any issues proving ireland doesn't have the unique fare evading issues CIE seem to think exist.

Aard

It's one thing if you're asked to wait for the next 46a. No problem - 10 minutes max. What if you're told to wait for the next 17? There's only a handful of routes that run at high frequency in Dublin, and thus what could be described as being "family friendly".

I'm not pointing the finger at Dublin Bus (or even the NTA - yet), but merely pointing out that between inadequate public transport and a generally homogenous housing offering, families in Dublin have little option but to settle for a suburban car-oriented lifestyle.

SpaceTime

It's like the states more than Europe in many respects.

Sprawling suburbs with generally poor public transport and very high car dependency.

Aard

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. It's not as bad as most similarly-sized US cities. I really believe that the problem in Dublin is poor network design, rather than sprawling suburbs.

AlekSmart

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's like the states more than Europe in many respects.

Sprawling suburbs with generally poor public transport and very high car dependency.

Spot-On,SpaceTime...however it may reflect more of a Trans-Atlantic attitude rather than an actual constructed problem.

Aard :It's one thing if you're asked to wait for the next 46a. No problem - 10 minutes max. What if you're told to wait for the next 17? There's only a handful of routes that run at high frequency in Dublin, and thus what could be described as being "family friendly".

I'm not pointing the finger at Dublin Bus (or even the NTA - yet), but merely pointing out that between inadequate public transport and a generally homogenous housing offering, families in Dublin have little option but to settle for a suburban car-oriented lifestyle.

It may well be chicken and egg,but private car ownership remains a badge of achievement to a substantial amount of Irish people....whereas percieved dependence upon Public Transport is taken to indicate a less than robust individual....Junior Minister Alan Kelly's widely reported remarks were somewhat nearer the mark than many might like to admit.

SpaceTime:I just see excuses for poor quality service here over and over. Similar in Britain too. Weird bus designs not really used outside of these two countries.

To me it looks like we just photocopy rather mediocre British models and implement them even worse : no middle doors, taking a decade+ to get Leap Card to work etc etc

The Luas for example used French style barrier free 'trust' ticketing without any issues proving ireland doesn't have the unique fare evading issues CIE seem to think exist.

It's worthwhile noting that Irish Rail's ticketing system is essentially a French Crouzet system.
Equally noteworthy is that 30 years ago Dublin's Bus network trialled the Crouzet ticketing equipment before adopting the UK's Wayfarer system instead.

Suggesting that the Luas "open" system is operating "without issues" is failing to recognize that very real "Issues" face Transdev/RPA Staff every day,indeeed it is worth noting the similarity between the recently introduced Transdev/RPA/Garda Checking blitzes and the long established RATP/Police checking operations oft seen on the Paris Metro and Bus services.

Comparing ourselves with the French,or indeed mainland European Urban Transport regime's is always fraught with danger and disappointment,as any similarities begin and end with the hardware...The Bus and the Stop,after that,all else is of a mindset FAR beyond Irish Administrative comprehension.

When one points to comparisons such as the 17 vs 46A,it's worthwhile delving deeper into who pays for the French model,and HOW it's paid for,in order to arrive at any meaningful comparisons.

Even now,with the shiny new NTA appearing to be all modern and eclecticly European,there remain worrying indications that Irish solutions to Irish problems will continue to be the preferred option ?

endacl

TheBandicoot wrote: »

So you suggest changing the bus design? What kind of layout or design would you have in mind?

Buggy tow bars behind the bus?

On second thoughts...

Aard

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may well be chicken and egg,but private car ownership remains a badge of achievement to a substantial amount of Irish people....whereas percieved dependence upon Public Transport is taken to indicate a less than robust individual....Junior Minister Alan Kelly's widely reported remarks were somewhat nearer the mark than many might like to admit.

Indeed. There is even a thread in After Hours wondering if men over the age of 25 who can't drive are "weird", with a sizable minority in agreement. No doubt in "real" Ireland (as opposed to the progressive Boards.ie population) there are even more out there who would agree.

SpaceTime

AlekSmart wrote: »

Spot-On,SpaceTime...however it may reflect more of a Trans-Atlantic attitude rather than an actual constructed problem.



It may well be chicken and egg,but private car ownership remains a badge of achievement to a substantial amount of Irish people....whereas percieved dependence upon Public Transport is taken to indicate a less than robust individual....Junior Minister Alan Kelly's widely reported remarks were somewhat nearer the mark than many might like to admit.



It's worthwhile noting that Irish Rail's ticketing system is essentially a French Crouzet system.
Equally noteworthy is that 30 years ago Dublin's Bus network trialled the Crouzet ticketing equipment before adopting the UK's Wayfarer system instead.

Suggesting that the Luas "open" system is operating "without issues" is failing to recognize that very real "Issues" face Transdev/RPA Staff every day,indeeed it is worth noting the similarity between the recently introduced Transdev/RPA/Garda Checking blitzes and the long established RATP/Police checking operations oft seen on the Paris Metro and Bus services.

Comparing ourselves with the French,or indeed mainland European Urban Transport regime's is always fraught with danger and disappointment,as any similarities begin and end with the hardware...The Bus and the Stop,after that,all else is of a mindset FAR beyond Irish Administrative comprehension.

When one points to comparisons such as the 17 vs 46A,it's worthwhile delving deeper into who pays for the French model,and HOW it's paid for,in order to arrive at any meaningful comparisons.

Even now,with the shiny new NTA appearing to be all modern and eclecticly European,there remain worrying indications that Irish solutions to Irish problems will continue to be the preferred option ?

Inspection is an absolutely part of those systems. They've similar levels of checking and bigger fare evasion issues elsewhere.

They take a view that it's more important to get people in and out quickly than to individually inspect each ticket and most people pay.

These notions of unique Irish problems and mentalities are utter nonsense. The French aren't known for their orderly rule following either, yet it works.

The Luas has been a resounding success in Dublin too.

I just see excuse after exuse as to why we can't do x, y, z.

The biggest challenge and only fundamental difference is very low density housing relative to most if Europe (although western France is lower density than most too).

As for ticketing, it doesn't really matter if it's made by Crouzet or Wayfarer or anyone else. The issue is how it's used, not the technology behind it. Several companies produce excellent ticketing systems, you can implement them umpteen ways though.

Ireland's never used a French-style open ticketing system on bus networks. The usual setup over there at the simplest level is a ticket that expires after a set time (especially in smaller cities) usually 1 hour.
You just validate the ticket when you board and it can be as simple as a magnetic stripe ticket that gets stamped by a machine on the bus.
That ticket's then valid for a journey of up to a specific time limit, not a single bus / tram / metro route trip.

The nuts and bolts of what company makes it really makes no difference, it's all about how it's planned and implemented.

Gatling

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm not sure where you got the "started enforcing" the Single Buggy Rule,Gatling

Actually its been used heavily on my 2 main routes the 77A and 65B lately sorry folks its not us aka drivers its the regulations 1 buggy or 1 wheelchair ,

In saying that I've seen as stated in an earlier thread a while back 4/5 unfolded buggies on one bus which I thought was bloody reckless ,

My mother was a driver for nearly 20 years so I pretty much know all the crap you guys n gals have to put up with when you ask someone to fold a buggy ,

SpaceTime

I'd also point out that Ireland's actually got one of the most baby-booming populations in the developed world at the moment. We should be making provision for more buggies than most countries are!

The drivers shouldn't be taking flack for busses that are just not setup for handling that kind of setup.

For example, having a section with fold-down seats might be a really good way of creating more wheelchair and buggy space. This is done on other modes of transport.

An early approach that may not comply with modern health and safety standards

Gatling

How many buggies spaces do people honestly want on DBs personally I'd be happy with just the one as things are now ,when you start getting into the 3+ things will really get bad ,imagine the space required for the latest 3ft wide chrome yokes been used at the moment by some parents

AlekSmart

Gatling wrote: »

How many buggies spaces do people honestly want on DBs personally I'd be happy with just the one as things are now ,when you start getting into the 3+ things will really get bad ,imagine the space required for the latest 3ft wide chrome yokes been used at the moment by some parents

One method might be for Bus Operators to team up with Buggy Manufacturers to come up with designs which can complement each other...Currently we have a situation whereby no two Buggy manufacturers have similar designs,and usually vastly differing folding mechanisms.

However,by far the greatest barrier to everybody gettin along en-masse,is the absolute belief by many that possession of a small child in a buggy automatically confers immunity from many,if not all,of the rules governing public behaviour.

bk

I have to agree with SpaceTime here, Dublin Bus operates it's buses in a dreadfully inefficient manner with all the focus on the wrong areas.

There really isn't anything special or different about Irish cities, it is all just excuses.

Take Gydnia in Poland. They have a superb bus system. They use all single decker buses, sometimes (mostly) they are bendy buses with 3 to 4 doors.

They don't have a fancy smart card like Leap, but ticketing works way better there. Tickets are just paper tickets that you validate by having the date and time stamped on the ticket by a machine, which there are a few of on the bus. Zero interaction with the driver.

If you don't have a ticket they also have a machine on the bus that you can buy tickets from. You can even buy multiple tickets from the machine for future use.

And trust me, you are kidding yourself if you think ticket dodging is less prevalent amongst Polish, they are just as bad as us for it.

But no, instead, ticket enforcement is done by ticket inspectors and high, on the spot fines. The ticket inspectors are usually ex-military commando types that you jut don't mess with. Plus they are on commission for each fine issued, a great motivator for them to catch absolutely everyone!

Also, no there isn't any other type of public transport in Gyndia, no trams and no metros. So you can't use that as an excuse either.

Also the lower subsidy is another red herring. When you include the indirect subsidy of the free travel pass scheme, Dublin Buses subsidy is very similar to what you get in other European cities.

And again urban density is another myth and excuse, Dublin actually has quiet a high urban density of 4,588/km2, higher then Amsterdam! and almost 3 times higher then Gydina (1,800/km2).

I'm tired of hearing the excuses for Dublin Buses poor efficiencies and I'm glad to see the NTA feels the same way. The proposed BRT looks like buses finally done right in Dublin. Hopefully DB will learn something from it.

SpaceTime

Many French and Spanish cities don't even have ticket vending machines. You just have to buy a smart card, or a book of tickets in a shop. Otherwise you pay about four or five times higher fees if you pay the driver.

Surprisingly enough, people manage to buy the tickets and use them without any fuss, just like the way they manage to top up their mobiles without Vodafone having TVMs all over the place.

In most French systems the driver will sell you a single ticket at *MUCH* bigger price than the prepaid tickets and you then have to validate it in the machines on board just like any other ticket.

They really strongly discourage you from buying tickets from the driver other than as a last resort.

AlekSmart

Bk: But no, instead, ticket enforcement is done by ticket inspectors and high, on the spot fines. The ticket inspectors are usually ex-military commando types that you jut don't mess with. Plus they are on commission for each fine issued, a great motivator for them to catch absolutely everyone!

I do hope,bk,you wont hold your breath whilst waiting for the introduction of this "feature" of Polish Public Transport.

Even reading of such incredible action,will have people firing indignant e-mails off to whatever "Commissioner" deals with (potentially) Oppressive sounding stuff in Ireland.....:o

Yo bro...lets go Polish !!!!

amdublin

It seems to be a modern phenomenon. Back in "my day" lots of people travelled on buses with their babies and children and managed to do it w/out all the hoo-ha. But these days.... :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

amdublin wrote: »

It seems to be a modern phenomenon. Back in "my day" lots of people travelled on buses with their babies and children and managed to do it w/out all the hoo-ha. But these days.... :rolleyes:

How did they do it....?

Gatling

AlekSmart wrote: »

How did they do it....?

They had more kids the eldest got to hold on to the youngest while mammie paid the driver ,
God bless the 80's the word entitled wasn't created yet

LashingLady

AlekSmart wrote: »

How did they do it....?

They did it because there was a bus conductor, or even more helpful other passengers to help them get the baby/child/buggy/shopping onto the bus!

It was never easy to get onto a bus with a buggy...

SpaceTime

AlekSmart wrote: »

I do hope,bk,you wont hold your breath whilst waiting for the introduction of this "feature" of Polish Public Transport.

Even reading of such incredible action,will have people firing indignant e-mails off to whatever "Commissioner" deals with (potentially) Oppressive sounding stuff in Ireland.....:o

Yo bro...lets go Polish !!!!

It's been done that way in France for many years, and it's already done in Dublin like that on the Luas without any major fuss whatsoever.

You don't need paramilitary police to inspect tickets! You just need ticket inspectors. It works and the huge advantage is that you don't have these complicated setups at bus stops where people are interacting with drivers.

In Cork City and other places Bus Eireann operate city busses the drivers even have to deal with paying out change!

I was stuck behind a bus on the Douglas Road in Cork for nearly 6 minutes while it was processing a particularly long queue of people all of whom seemed to require change. (Narrow road, lots of oncoming traffic so passing is quite difficult)

With regard to buggies, larger flat-floor single deck busses would simply have a lot more options for placing wheelchairs and buggies.

I know there are a few routes they'd be unusable on, but many QBCs and other routes with straight runs shouldn't have any issue with articulated busses. With the right vehicle too, turning circles and all that stuff really aren't a big deal.

amdublin

AlekSmart wrote: »

How did they do it....?

In advance of the bus arriving they took the baby out of the buggy. They folded buggy. They carried baby in one arm and buggy with other on to bus. They deposited buggy into hold. They went back to driver to pay for ticket.

ThisRegard

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd also point out that Ireland's actually got one of the most baby-booming populations in the developed world at the moment. We should be making provision for more buggies than most countries are!

That was a few years ago, I think now we're back to being average or just below average.

edit: actually we're still high in European terms but the rate has been declining steadily since 2009.

Aard

Ireland does have a high birthrate, but nowhere near sub Saharan African levels!

dfx-

bk wrote: »

I have to agree with SpaceTime here, Dublin Bus operates it's buses in a dreadfully inefficient manner with all the focus on the wrong areas.

No matter how many ways of tickets or doors or other diversionary topics, there is a physical limit to how many buggies you can get in on any box on wheels. Somebody might have to miss out.

Even in Gydnia or wherever..

_Kaiser_

Gatling wrote: »

They had more kids the eldest got to hold on to the youngest while mammie paid the driver ,
God bless the 80's the word entitled wasn't created yet

Ah yes, the "good ole days" - when people took responsibility for their own actions and just got on with it. There was also less anti-social behaviour on buses (or in general) as people actually had a respect for others, themselves, and the "rules" in general.

Nowadays with nanny-state PC H&S do-goodery, coupled with what I like to call "helpless adults" and the more-immature-every-generation Facebook/Twitter obsessed crowd you can barely move in this country without SOMEONE complaining about SOMETHING! :rolleyes:

It's incredibly frustrating for those of us who retain that sort of 80's copped-on mindset.

bumper234

I would be happy if the odd time i have my young lad with me and i need to get on the bus that the driver would wait 20 seconds before pulling away from the stop. I get on, take 2 year old out of buggy and fold buggy, As i am stowing buggy away the driver pulls away and my young lad nearly goes flying down the bus.

Godge

monument wrote: »

You've answered your own question there. There's a number of reasons, here's some examples:

-- newborns should be flat which requires bulkier prams than the ones which can be easily folded and stored on a bus

-- the smaller foldable buggys are only really suited to toddles and a little beyond

-- mothers may not be back to full strength after giving birth (for more than a few reasons)

-- parents may need to be also looking after another child

-- parents may need to carry shopping etc

-- even where somebody helps or offers to getting into the bus there may not be that help at the end of the trip

At the end of the day, if we want a large modal shift away from cars and to sustainable transport -- and a shift which lasts longer than just up to when a family has children -- and in that regard Dublin Bus as it stands is not set up to accommodate families very well.

In essence, public transport is unsuitable for such situations.

Part of the madness of current transport planning in Ireland is the belief that everyone can cycle and if they can't cycle they can take public transport.

This is not true for many reasons ranging from the slightly mobility impaired person with arthritis who cannot stand for short periods yet to all intents and purposes looks fine, to the parent with babies, to the person who needs the car for work, to the person who uses the car to bring several people different places in the morning etc. etc.

SpaceTime

In the 1980s let's not forget that wheelchair bound people often couldn't use public transport at all and were probably more likely to be confined to home than they are now.

It was far from an idyllic era! Thatcher at full height of power, NI troubles in full swing, far worse economy and infrastructure than now, much more conservative society than now and many people only had 2 TV stations both of which only broadcast a few hours a day!

No internet etc etc

This discussion Wouldn't have been possible!

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

No matter how many ways of tickets or doors or other diversionary topics, there is a physical limit to how many buggies you can get in on any box on wheels. Somebody might have to miss out.

Even in Gydnia or wherever..

The problem,dfx,is when that "somebody" becomes ME !!!!

Then it becomes a Liveline issue....;)