Why don't we riot like mad ejits

Guy:Incognito · 18-02-2014 04:12PM

kult wrote: »

giving up independence and constitution to germans comparing it to getting divorce , it must be something wrong with you. But ok, lest do lisbon treaty for the 3rd time, maybe people want to change? no no no no no , germany won't let you....

blah blah blah, whatever. It was a simple question , one that didn't need the involvement of Lisbon, Germany, the EU or anything else. A simple divorce referendum question.

kult · 18-02-2014 04:15PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

blah blah blah, whatever. It was a simple question , one that didn't need the involvement of Lisbon, Germany, the EU or anything else. A simple divorce referendum question.

if independence and constitution for you is "blah blah blah" then we have nothing to talk about

Ok, we want lisbon treaty again, we want to vote again, we said yes so now should it stay for ever?!??!!? we want another choice? but it wont be given, because people like you do not pay respect to own independence and Constitution , many people died fighting for it, but one referendum can give it up... great

KyussBishop · 18-02-2014 04:31PM

Seems to be quite a straw-man setup this thread. OP is absent, and pretty much nobody defends the idea of riots.

There are problems within our political system, such as corruption and a lack of transparency, and a lack of enforcement of regulations - particularly surrounding the financial/banking sector; not to mention, massive economic mismanagement, but I'll put that one aside, since the first lot are bad enough.

We know the problems (the above), and we know the solutions (prosecute corruption, make government more transparent, actually enforce regulations and prosecute crime...) - the solution are quite obvious in a lot of cases really.

We know that the political parties available to us for voting, probably aren't going to do a whole lot about this, and that our vote at the ballot box is ineffective, because who are we going to vote in who's any better?

So lets say we want new politicians and a new political party - first we need a new political movement in order to develop and foster the principles, which we want to see from politicians, and which politicians will be developed from - and in order to get that, we need politically active groups, i.e. protest movements and protests/protestors.

So guys, should we just do nothing and avoid challenging political power, or should we actually do the above so it can be challenged? There really doesn't seem to be much middle ground, so do realize that when you are disparaging the very idea of protesting, you are - in a sense - arguing in favour of inconsequential action (which protests are not - since they are important for forming whole political/protest movements).

Our vote, and talking to our local TD, does fúck all really - yet people are fond of fobbing off the idea of protesting, by presenting inconsequential alternatives like that - since the people suggesting that, seem to me like they inherently know what they suggest is ineffective, it always seems to me like an argument in favour of (effectively) doing nothing.

kult · 18-02-2014 04:35PM

Kyuss - I agree with 99% of what you just said. Just one thing if you do not mind. 1989 polish people abolished communism by rioting and , yes, destroying the place, mainly gov buildings, which gave people jobs to rebuild those buildings and clean up. Because of that big riot communism in eastern europe fell to it's knees and there were many riots like that which changed history in a good way. They could have say, "fek it" lets wait and vote...see what happens... but they did act and won...

kult · 18-02-2014 04:39PM

"The most advanced way of controlling people is that you let them believe that they are free and nothing is controlled at all" - one zionist guy said that years ago, and it works. Let people believe that everything is a conspiracy. It works, people are dumb and do not think for themselves anymore, they think what tv tell them to think.

KyussBishop · 18-02-2014 05:07PM

Sure, riots have been politically necessary and beneficial in many places in the past, but by and large they are to be avoided unless more peaceful means of protesting, are pushed back with excessive violence.

A sure way to discredit an entire protest by association, is to take a peaceful protest, and throw in a few idiots that start getting violent, causing justification for a police crackdown on the entire protest - something to always be pretty suspicious about, since (if you look at the UK) there is past precedent of 'Agent Provocateur's from the police, deliberately encouraging this within protests, to discredit protests/people.

Jonny7 · 18-02-2014 05:08PM

kult wrote: »

"The most advanced way of controlling people is that you let them believe that they are free and nothing is controlled at all" - one zionist guy said that years ago, and it works. Let people believe that everything is a conspiracy. It works, people are dumb and do not think for themselves anymore, they think what tv tell them to think.

Every. Single. Time.

SpaceTime · 18-02-2014 05:11PM

We basically fired Fianna Fail, and the Green Party disappeared entirely.

That was pretty dramatic by any standards. The Greeks burnt the place down and then re-elected more or less the same government that caused the problem in the first place!

The Spanish haven't had any spectacular movements in terms of voting patterns either.

I'd argue Ireland's actually been remarkably sensible and democratic in how it's dealt with the economic disaster. Maybe we just have a more mature and functional democracy than most of the countries that got in trouble?

The French historically protest and riot because they've a history of an executive president with a 7-year term! Can you imagine being stuck with say a FF full exec president with a 7-year term!?

The president's term in France was reduced, but it's only in relatively recent years.
Under the 7-year term system, there was very little they could do between elections to get their voice heard other than take to the streets.

Whether we admit it or not, the PR-STV voting system and relatively high levels of political engagement here are actually very positive things for how we do stuff.

We're lousy at stuff like infrastructural planning and housing planning, but we do quite a few other things pretty well.

I'd actually argue that Ireland's got a lot more in common with some of the most boring parts of sensible Northern Europe than we like to think we have.

super_furry · 18-02-2014 05:15PM

kult wrote: »

"The most advanced way of controlling people is that you let them believe that they are free and nothing is controlled at all" - one zionist guy said that years ago, and it works. Let people believe that everything is a conspiracy. It works, people are dumb and do not think for themselves anymore, they think what tv tell them to think.

Right, who had the Jews in the After Hours sweepstake?

Was hoping right up until the very end that it would be the Reptilians, but turns out whoever had the Jews is the winner. Congrats.

kult · 18-02-2014 05:15PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

Sure, riots have been politically necessary and beneficial in many places in the past, but by and large they are to be avoided unless more peaceful means of protesting, are pushed back with excessive violence.

A sure way to discredit an entire protest by association, is to take a peaceful protest, and throw in a few idiots that start getting violent, causing justification for a police crackdown on the entire protest - something to always be pretty suspicious about, since (if you look at the UK) there is past precedent of 'Agent Provocateur's from the police, deliberately encouraging this within protests, to discredit protests/people.

you are one of the first intelligent people who wrote something with so much sense, however "agent provocateurs" is a conspiracy theory to most of people in here...

Jonny7 · 18-02-2014 05:16PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

We basically fired Fianna Fail, and the Green Party disappeared entirely.

Yeah but did we smash up McDonalds?

If a bunch of misguided crusties aren't breaking stuff or squatting in tents for months then, apparently, we haven't achieved anything

kult · 18-02-2014 05:16PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

Sure, riots have been politically necessary and beneficial in many places in the past, but by and large they are to be avoided unless more peaceful means of protesting, are pushed back with excessive violence.

A sure way to discredit an entire protest by association, is to take a peaceful protest, and throw in a few idiots that start getting violent, causing justification for a police crackdown on the entire protest - something to always be pretty suspicious about, since (if you look at the UK) there is past precedent of 'Agent Provocateur's from the police, deliberately encouraging this within protests, to discredit protests/people.

btw and "not" manipulated and controlled tv will show only the guys who make trouble inside the protest... will not show the other side of it... but of course media are no controlled...

melekalikimaka · 18-02-2014 05:17PM

kult has lost its marbles i fear, thank god this is AH so hopefullt no one will take what he is saying as fact, merely opinion, I'd have liked half his posts if I wasn't fearful some of the more influencable might subscribe to his pamplet

SpaceTime · 18-02-2014 05:18PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

Yeah but did we smash up McDonalds?

If a bunch of misguided crusties aren't breaking stuff or squatting in tents for months then, apparently, we haven't achieved anything

Well, I think most people realise that smashing up our city centres and damaging people's businesses isn't going to achieve anything.

You *can* change things big time in Ireland though / by campaigning and lobbying TDs directly and altering your voting patterns Power's not very remote tbh and TDs know exactly where their bread's buttered in terms of sucking up to the electorate at all costs.

Part of our problems is sometimes they suck up so much that they end up ignoring the big picture entirely.

Try living in France or Spain or even the UK and you'll see how different it is.

kult · 18-02-2014 05:18PM

super_furry wrote: »

Right, who had the Jews in the After Hours sweepstake?

Was hoping right up until the very end that it would be the Reptilians, but turns out whoever had the Jews is the winner. Congrats.

I am not talking about jews... read with understanding... btw who are the owners of EU banks and FED?;)

Jonny7 · 18-02-2014 05:18PM

super_furry wrote: »

Right, who had the Jews in the After Hours sweepstake?

Was hoping right up until the very end that it would be the Reptilians, but turns out whoever had the Jews is the winner. Congrats.

Not Jews, you can't say that anymore, it's more acceptable for the nuts to use the word "zionists".. the smarter ones anyway

But what do I know, am just a sheeple with the wool pulled over my eyes by an evil corrupt state which in turn is controlled by the bankers, Goldman and the Zionist media

kult · 18-02-2014 05:20PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

kult has lost its marbles i fear, thank god this is AH so hopefullt no one will take what he is saying as fact, merely opinion, I'd have liked half his posts if I wasn't fearful some of the more influencable might subscribe to his pamplet

yep, keep sleeping and bending over to take more ... don't forget to agree with everything on tv and trust the gov... who lost it's marbles? yourself....

kult · 18-02-2014 05:21PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

Not Jews, you can't say that anymore, it's more acceptable for the nuts to use the word "zionists".. the smarter ones anyway

But what do I know, am just a sheeple with the wool pulled over my eyes by an evil corrupt state which in turn is controlled by the bankers, Goldman and the Zionist media

exactly , you know nothing you cant even ready with understanding

"The most advanced way of controlling people is that you let them believe that they are free and nothing is controlled at all" - one zionist guy said that years ago, and it works. Let people believe that everything is a conspiracy. It works, people are dumb and do not think for themselves anymore, they think what tv tell them to think.

super_furry · 18-02-2014 05:22PM

kult wrote: »

I am not talking about jews... read with understanding... btw who are the owners of EU banks and FED?;)

Ohhh I know this one.....it's the Raelians, right? Or is it Alex Jones, I always confuse the two.

kult · 18-02-2014 05:23PM

super_furry wrote: »

Ohhh I know this one.....it's the Raelians, right? Or is it Alex Jones, I always confuse the two.

wrong again, you have some poor knowledge or problems with understanding things

super_furry · 18-02-2014 05:24PM

kult wrote: »

wrong again, you have some poor knowledge or problems with understanding things

Yeah, must be all that tasty tasty fluoride addling my brain, right? Well that and the WiFi radiation.

Jonny7 · 18-02-2014 05:25PM

kult wrote: »

exactly , you know nothing you cant even ready with understanding

Quoted for posterity

kult · 18-02-2014 05:25PM

super_furry wrote: »

Yeah, must be all that tasty tasty fluoride addling my brain, right? Well that and the WiFi radiation.

might be both, whatever you want , whatever you want...

super_furry · 18-02-2014 05:26PM

kult wrote: »

might be both, whatever you want , whatever you want...

But that's the problem, it's not what I want, it's what the Zionists and Raelians want.

Am I doing this right?

KyussBishop · 18-02-2014 05:27PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well, I think most people realise that smashing up our city centres and damaging people's businesses isn't going to achieve anything.

You *can* change things big time in Ireland though / by campaigning and lobbying TDs directly and altering your voting patterns Power's not very remote tbh and TDs know exactly where their bread's buttered in terms of sucking up to the electorate at all costs.

Part of our problems is sometimes they suck up so much that they end up ignoring the big picture entirely.

Try living in France or Spain or even the UK and you'll see how different it is.

I don't think this is true really - these TD's are part of established parties, often under the control of a party whip who can dictate the wider policies of the party.

That's not real choice or influence that the public has - we need entirely new parties, and probably new politicians to go with.

melekalikimaka · 18-02-2014 05:27PM

kult wrote: »

yep, keep sleeping and bending over to take more ... don't forget to agree with everything on tv and trust the gov... who lost it's marbles? yourself....

my whole life... I have lived a lie....

Thank you that post cleared my vision, I see they way now

SpaceTime · 18-02-2014 05:28PM

Sorry lads, I think most people realised it was actually our own speculative sector and its political and media fanboys that inflated and crashed the economy, not some weird outside agencies of any type. The outside agencies just got in on the action with handing our speculators vast amounts of loans as they were all was 'chasing the dream' of a quick buck.

One thing about Ireland that I notice is actually a strength and a weakness is we tend to be quite capable of washing our dirty linen in public when something does come out in the open eventually.

A lot of other cultures try to find outsiders to blame for any major problem - immigrants, minority groups like the Jewish community in the past, global conspiracy theories. The Greeks are blaming Angela Merkel and the EU for what was effectively their own establishment's fiscal and financial mismanagement. Yeah, the EU didn't rescue them to the level they might have liked and yeah the EU's policies acted a bit like an accelerant but there was no outsiders trying to wreck Greece, on the contrary they tried to rescue it with billions and billions of Euro.

Unfortunately, it was our own home-grown speculators that wrecked the place and I think the vast majority of us understand that fully.

The weakness is that we tend to then go into some kind of weird self-flagellation mode and start wallowing in a combination of self pity and slagging ourselves off.

The amount of times I heard/read people going on about how "oh we can't govern ourselves" and all this utter drivel was quite disturbing.

I think though that's why we're not having riots. We know exactly what happened.

The most important thing we need to do now is get ourselves back into some degree of normality and respectability and stop with the depressing self-harm stuff and keep an eye out for any more half-wit speculator fanboys/girls trying to inflate more bubbles.

The world moves on!

Lesson learnt : More transparency, more vigilance & keep certain types of politicians on a very short leash ! (and I'm not being party political in saying that - it applies to several parties!)

kult · 18-02-2014 05:29PM

super_furry wrote: »

But that's the problem, it's not what I want, it's what the Zionists and Raelians want.

Am I doing this right?

completely wrong, you think to "shallow" and that's the problem, can't recognize the real problem, but that's fine, 90% of any population is stupid, so I do not expect too much , that's ok, not even critical thinking

that's the reason why we have democracy, because majority will believe promises and bull****, and 10 knackers with no knowledge or brain whatsoever will overvote a PhD , and them idiots then "create" the law by voting for people who clearly manipulate them... majority is always dumb , that's a fact

Jonny7 · 18-02-2014 05:29PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

That's not real choice or influence that the public has - we need entirely new parties, and probably new politicians to go with.

A group of people interested in open, transparent, honest politics - like Direct Democracy Ireland?

kult · 18-02-2014 05:31PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

my whole life... I have lived a lie....

Thank you that post cleared my vision, I see they way now

I am happy that I helped you, good. And seriously you sarcasm is just pathetic, nothing else, nothing constructive to say so you just say "whatever"... that's v. smart too. You are great electorate... you will do the job just fine:D

Why don't we riot like mad ejits

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