Am I just ignorant?

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 05:04PM

Mike747 wrote: »

No op you're not ignorant, ignore those trying to shame you because you don't care. I'm the same, it makes no difference to me if some football player or actress comes out.

Not caring doesn't make someone ignorant. I don't give a shít if the OP cares.

What makes someone ignorant is when they can't grasp why it's made a big deal of when a celebrity comes out.

Frank Lee Midere · 15-02-2014 05:05PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

Yes, by the sounds of it you are just ignorant; on this issue at least.

You aren't the world; they didn't come out just to you, who doesn't care about sexual orientation but to everyone, which includes some pretty vile people who aren't okay with certain types of sexual orientation in the slightest, in fact they're virulently opposed to them. This is pretty well publicised and I can't believe you didn't know it.

So is the point of this argument that the Taleban are now going to down swords and say

"Ellen Page! The girl from Juno! The sassy one! She's gay! Well fcuk this Islamic crap then."

It's going to have no effect outside the West, little effect within it. Fair play to ms page but let's not go overboard. Even within the West I doubt if the a teenage bully is going to be a big fan of left field movies and actresses.

Frank Lee Midere · 15-02-2014 05:08PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Not caring doesn't make someone ignorant. I don't give a shít if the OP cares.

What makes someone ignorant is when they can't grasp why it's made a big deal of when a celebrity comes out.

What makes people naive is thinking this will have any effect on those pre disposed to be bullies, or any culture outside the west.

Muise... · 15-02-2014 05:09PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

So is the point of this argument that the Taleban are now going to down swords and say

"Ellen Page! The girl from Juno! The sassy one! She's gay! Well fcuk this Islamic crap then."

It's going to have no effect outside the West, little effect within it. Fair play to ms page but let's not go overboard. Even within the West I doubt if the a teenage bully is going to be a big fan of left field movies and actresses.

Certainly had an effect on me. I took the c0cks out of my mouth and said

"Ellen Page! The girl from Juno! The sassy one! She's gay! Well fcuk this Islamic heterosexual crap then."

nervous_twitch · 15-02-2014 05:14PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

What makes people naive is thinking this will have any effect on those pre disposed to be bullies, or any culture outside the west.

But maybe it could help those being bullied? You are seriously underestimating the value in visibility and solidarity for those belonging to a marginalised demographic.

Czarcasm · 15-02-2014 05:14PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

No, it's not a competition.

What people are saying is that people in the public sphere who embrace who they are in the face of adversity and ostracisation can (not always and not to everyone) inspire others to do the same. Competition does not enter the equation.

If you deny this then you deny fact.

Case in point: Tom Daley inspires England defender Casey Stoney to come out as gay.

Nah, tbh Magic Marker I just refute your interpretation of the facts. This "coming out" craic only inspires the whole disconnect in the "LGBT-sphere" between themselves and other people. It fosters the belief that LGBT people should see themselves as different, and separate themselves from their peers rather than explore and share their commonalities.

People have far more in common with each other than they differentiate from each other, but it's in the interest of various advocacy groups to highlight and color themselves oppressed based on whatever particular trait they see as different about themselves.

Can you honestly tell me you can see Ellen Page having a conversation with Anto if there wasn't a camera around? She might be surprised to find that 14 year old Anto can write poetry that would put Shelley and Wordsworth to shame!

But such talent would go unnoticed because it's more important apparently that Anto "be true to himself" by "coming out" instead of being hailed for his poetry that he thinks is "gay".

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 05:18PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

What makes people naive is thinking this will have any effect on those pre disposed to be bullies, or any culture outside the west.

These "coming outs" do have an effect.

The decriminalization of homosexuality, the increasing number of countries legalizing civil unions/gay marriage and same sex adoption. The increasing acceptance of homosexuality.

Do you think all this stuff happens overnight because straight people collectively decide not to be a díck anymore? That is naivety for you.

P. Breathnach · 15-02-2014 05:20PM

evil_seed wrote: »

... It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

If everybody took the position that other people's sexual orientation was uninteresting, then it wouldn't have qualified as a "big announcement" and there would be no fuss. The story would have sunk with barely a ripple. The very fact that there is a fuss justifies her action.

Earthhorse · 15-02-2014 05:21PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

So is the point of this argument that the Taleban are now going to down swords and say

"Ellen Page! The girl from Juno! The sassy one! She's gay! Well fcuk this Islamic crap then."

It's going to have no effect outside the West, little effect within it. Fair play to ms page but let's not go overboard. Even within the West I doubt if the a teenage bully is going to be a big fan of left field movies and actresses.

Yes. That's exactly the point of this argument, well done. In order for her actions to have an affect they must bring about the end of Islam. That's reasonable.

It's not for you to decide whether it will have an effect in the West or otherwise. I'm pretty confident it will help people feeling isolated due to their orientation who may gain some solace from her speech. And if not, no harm, no foul.

nervous_twitch · 15-02-2014 05:25PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Nah, tbh Magic Marker I just refute your interpretation of the facts. This "coming out" craic only inspires the whole disconnect in the "LGBT-sphere" between themselves and other people. It fosters the belief that LGBT people should see themselves as different, and separate themselves from their peers rather than explore and share their commonalities.

This is nothing but warped, utopian rhetoric.

Earthhorse · 15-02-2014 05:28PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I know you didn't ask me, but screw you!

I'd only use the term "ignorant" to apply to someone who doesn't know enough about something yet gives their tuppence-worth anyway, incorrect and inaccurate as it is.
It's not always a negative description either.

I guess it does apply to the OP, but I'd prefer to use a term like "unaware" since the meaning of "ignorant" has become so distorted. Plus, some of what the OP says is not untrue. Some people seem to think "ignorant" just means "being an asshole".

I'm not going to remove a useful word from my vocabulary simply because some people misuse, misunderstand it or simply feel uncomfortable saying things that may not be entirely complimentary. This is almost a textbook definition of ignorance i.e. not being aware of why people will celebrate someone coming out given the gay rights struggle of this last half century or so.

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 05:30PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Nah, tbh Magic Marker I just refute your interpretation of the facts. This "coming out" craic only inspires the whole disconnect in the "LGBT-sphere" between themselves and other people. It fosters the belief that LGBT people should see themselves as different, and separate themselves from their peers rather than explore and share their commonalities.

There's only one interpretation of "influential person comes out and inspires others to do the same", it's irrefutable really.

But what do you suggest? Should all gay people just keep quiet, is that it? Don't announce it to anyone. It doesn't matter sure...

Czarcasm wrote: »

People have far more in common with each other than they differentiate from each other, but it's in the interest of various advocacy groups to highlight and color themselves oppressed based on whatever particular trait they see as different about themselves.

Advocacy groups don't colour themselves oppressed, society colours them oppressed when it denies them equal rights.

That is frankly an absurdly retarded comment.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Can you honestly tell me you can see Ellen Page having a conversation with Anto if there wasn't a camera around? She might be surprised to find that 14 year old Anto can write poetry that would put Shelley and Wordsworth to shame!

But such talent would go unnoticed because it's more important apparently that Anto "be true to himself" by "coming out" instead of being hailed for his poetry that he thinks is "gay".

I don't really have any idea what you're talking about. Why can't Anto just be an openly gay poet? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you think Anto should keep the gay part to himself in case he "disconnects" himself from the rest of us.

jill_valentine · 15-02-2014 05:33PM

ITT, a bunch of straight males telling each other whether it matters that this woman's openly identified herself as gay.

No offense lads, but that's what it boils down to. Ye've no idea one way or the other. She even explains the reasoning behind doing it and the damage it did not to in her speech.

Earthhorse · 15-02-2014 05:33PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I can't really Earthhorse tbh, because I respect other people's right not to give a shìt about things I'm interested in or passionate about (my wife has no interest in technology and I don't call her ignorant)...

No one is ignorant because of a lack of interest in something.

Being ignorant is about ignoring certain obvious truths i.e. that there is still a struggle for gay rights going on and so some people will celebrate a celebrity coming out, particularly one whose career is in full flow.

Disagreeing with any of that doesn't make you ignorant. Being unaware of it does.

Earthhorse · 15-02-2014 05:37PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

ITT, a bunch of straight males telling each other whether it matters that this woman's openly identified herself as gay.

No offense lads, but that's what it boils down to. Ye've no idea one way or the other. She even explains the reasoning behind doing it and the damage it did not to in her speech.

It doesn't matter if we're straight, male, Canadians, brunette, actors or any other identifying feature; that's really neither here nor there.

Czarcasm · 15-02-2014 05:45PM

nervous_twitch wrote: »

This is nothing but warped, utopian rhetoric.

This is nothing short of lofty meaningless nonsense. A warped utopia? Oxymoron moreso than rhetoric. You could've kept it simple and told me I was talking out my arse.

Little Acorn · 15-02-2014 05:47PM

It doesn't have any importance to me, but it might to some gay people.
For example, maybe some gay people particularly young people, may be unfortunate enough to come from a family or local area where being gay is seen as something to be mocked or even worse thought to be wrong and bad, and a person has grown up thinking there is something 'wrong' with themselves for being gay.
Seeing a public figure who is loved by many and who they maybe look up to themselves, coming out as gay and then seeing that person still retain the popularity and support from millions of fans after coming out, may just make some look at at the bigger picture and see that despite the attitudes in their own family/local area, that there are millions of people worldwide who don't care that they are gay and that there is nothing 'wrong' or 'bad' with themselves, just maybe a problem with the attitudes of some people in their daily life.
It might give some the confidence to come out, or more likely it won't just suddenly give them the confidence to come out (as mentioned, celeb life could be a lot safer to come out in) but it might give them some feelings of normalcy and a bit more acceptance of themselves to see somebody very famous who is the same as them.
Obviously if the person came from a great loving home and/or a caring supportive friend network or locality, the celebs might not make much difference to them, but it might help some who are less lucky in their environment.

As for why the celebs do it all publicly?
I couldn't possibly know for sure, some may be to help other young gay people, some it might be for themselves and they go public because they want to tell people on their own terms instead of the newspapers making up stories about them, and I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that some might do it to get themselves back in the public eye after advice from their manager, but I would hope if true that they are the minority.

nervous_twitch · 15-02-2014 05:50PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

This is nothing short of lofty meaningless nonsense. A warped utopia? Oxymoron moreso than rhetoric. You could've kept it simple and told me I was talking out my arse.

Fine. You're talking out your arse. I didn't realise you'd need things kept simple. Utopia by its very definition is warped. It's not real or possible.

jill_valentine · 15-02-2014 05:51PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

It doesn't matter if we're straight, male, Canadians, brunette, actors or any other identifying feature; that's really neither here nor there.

Really? You genuinely don't think gay females might have a slightly more informed perspective on the significance to them of basically the first young self identified lesbian in Hollywood in their generation? You can't think of any reason at all why they might be a little more fluent in the nuance of the subject?

Tell me what the weather is like in Timbuktu while you're at it, or what it's like to be black in Russia, or seek disability benefit in Belgium. I assume you're equally familiar and informed on these things?

Earthhorse · 15-02-2014 05:55PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Really? You genuinely don't think gay females might have a slightly more informed perspective on the significance to them of basically the first young self identified lesbian in Hollywood in their generation? You can't think of any reason at all why they might be a little more fluent in the nuance of the subject?

Tell me what the weather is like in Timbuktu while you're at it, or what it's like to be black in Russia, or seek disability benefit in Belgium. I assume you're equally familiar and informed on these things?

What on earth are you on about? I never said my opinion was more informed or nuanced than hers. I simply said that not having the same exact experiences as her does not disqualify me from commenting on the matter at hand (which is actually more about the OP than Ellen Page for what it's worth) as you seemed to be implying.

Links234 · 15-02-2014 05:56PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

This "coming out" craic only inspires the whole disconnect in the "LGBT-sphere" between themselves and other people.

Ah yes, the old chestnut that LGBT people are the architects of their own ostracization.

Sure historically there was never any discrimination against teh gays, it was only when they spoke up things changed, amirite? :cool:

Jesus Wept · 15-02-2014 05:59PM

She is quite annoying.

dissed doc · 15-02-2014 06:00PM

evil_seed wrote: »

I've just had a discussion with my brother. In the recent stories of Michael Sam and Ellen Page I just thought to myself, why is such a big deal made of gay people coming out? I don't get it. Why are they seen as inspiration? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest what your orientation is so why make the "big announcement" and why all the fuss?

Sorry you are making a post without trumping about how gay is great.

Next time in any sentence, you have to allow a certain amount of pro-gay words.

jill_valentine · 15-02-2014 06:04PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

What on earth are you on about? I never said my opinion was more informed or nuanced than hers. I simply said that not having the same exact experiences as her does not disqualify me from commenting on the matter at hand (which is actually more about the OP than Ellen Page for what it's worth) as you seemed to be implying.

You know what, I was really unreasonable and cranky with you, I was just talking about this elsewhere and the mindboggling scale of Not Getting It got under my skin severely. Apologies.

Still and all, I stand by the kernel of a point I was swinging at - just as I haven't a clue what having a black president would mean to a black person, straight guys cannot assume to preach about what does and doesn't matter in the context of something that by definition is not about them. Page was talking about her experience of being a gay female celebrity to an audience at a gay event. In gay female circles, her speech has resonated very deeply because some of the stuff she's talking about is not an abstract concept to them. Whether the speech means anything to the dude party of AH or not isn't the point.

Earthhorse · 15-02-2014 06:11PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

You know what, I was really unreasonable and cranky with you, I was just talking about this elsewhere and the mindboggling scale of Not Getting It got under my skin severely. Apologies.

No worries.

Still and all, I stand by the kernel of a point I was swinging at - just as I haven't a clue what having a black president would mean to a black person, straight guys cannot assume to preach about what does and doesn't matter in the context of something that by definition is not about them. Page was talking about her experience of being a gay female celebrity to an audience at a gay event. In gay female circles, her speech has resonated very deeply because some of the stuff she's talking about is not an abstract concept to them. Whether the speech means anything to the dude party of AH or not isn't the point.

I get where you're coming from but I think it's important to be able to relate to people regardless of how much or little we have in common. I don't understand the struggle people face in coming out in a detailed way but I understand struggle, everyone does. I don't particularly like Page as an actress but her speech was refreshingly sincere and heartfelt. Anyone who watched it would have trouble disagreeing, I think. So I think it's worth arguing the toss with people dismissing this in a cynical fashion even if I am male and straight.

Czarcasm · 15-02-2014 06:12PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

There's only one interpretation of "influential person comes out and inspires others to do the same", it's irrefutable really.

But what do you suggest? Should all gay people just keep quiet, is that it? Don't announce it to anyone. It doesn't matter sure...

Irrefutable according to who, you? Well someone else will say it's irrefutable that Page was addressing her speech to her peers among her generation.

As for what I'd suggest, how about dismounting your high horse and recognising the fact that some people would rather not make a point of their sexuality? The fact is if you make a point of it, then you're making it matter. I'm sure you're familiar with the Barbara Streisand effect.

Advocacy groups don't colour themselves oppressed, society colours them oppressed when it denies them equal rights.

That is frankly an absurdly retarded comment.

Never ceases to amaze me how various minority advocates will campaign for equality for their particular special interest minority, but have no recognition whatsoever for minorities outside their own, unless of course you're under the impression there are no such persons as intellectually disabled LGBT people?

I doubt you'll be courteous enough to withdraw your use of an archaic and derogatory term used to refer to those people with intellectual disabilities?

I don't really have any idea what you're talking about. Why can't Anto just be an openly gay poet? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you think Anto should keep the gay part to himself in case he "disconnects" himself from the rest of us.

Nope, you're letting your oppression and persecution complex cloud your interpretation of my posts. Anto doesn't want to be a poet, he doesn't even want to be gay, because he just wants to fit in with his friends and do all the things he sees them do, like soccer and going knacker drinking and generally shooting the shìt.

His poetry is an outlet for his expression, but he himself thinks of it negatively, and no amount of "It's ok to be gay" is going to convince Anto that indeed it IS ok to be gay. He doesn't want to be a poet either but I've managed to encourage him to express himself whether it be in song, or poetry, just write it down, get it out of his system. I'm not interested in whether Anto is gay or not (HE is, because he sees himself as different and he can't come out), I'm interested in Anto as a whole person, not just one particular aspect of the person. I think often times advocacy groups forget or ignore the people who don't "fit the profile". That's my biggest bug bear with some of these "Rights" and "Equality" groups. They live in an idealistic bubble far removed from reality.

MagicMarker · 15-02-2014 07:20PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Irrefutable according to who, you? Well someone else will say it's irrefutable that Page was addressing her speech to her peers among her generation.

What on earth are you on about? Are you genuinely denying one person can inspire another person? There's a reason why the word inspiration exists you know?

Czarcasm wrote: »

As for what I'd suggest, how about dismounting your high horse and recognising the fact that some people would rather not make a point of their sexuality?

No where have I said otherwise.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Never ceases to amaze me how various minority advocates will campaign for equality for their particular special interest minority, but have no recognition whatsoever for minorities outside their own, unless of course you're under the impression there are no such persons as intellectually disabled LGBT people?

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Apparently you have an issue with gay rights advocacy groups only advocating for gay rights.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Nope, you're letting your oppression and persecution complex cloud your interpretation of my posts.

Nothing's being clouded, I haven't been oppressed or persecuted against, I'm not gay. It's interesting that you assume I am.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Anto doesn't want to be a poet, he doesn't even want to be gay, because he just wants to fit in with his friends and do all the things he sees them do, like soccer and going knacker drinking and generally shooting the shìt.

His poetry is an outlet for his expression, but he himself thinks of it negatively, and no amount of "It's ok to be gay" is going to convince Anto that indeed it IS ok to be gay. He doesn't want to be a poet either but I've managed to encourage him to express himself whether it be in song, or poetry, just write it down, get it out of his system. I'm not interested in whether Anto is gay or not (HE is, because he sees himself as different and he can't come out), I'm interested in Anto as a whole person, not just one particular aspect of the person. I think often times advocacy groups forget or ignore the people who don't "fit the profile". That's my biggest bug bear with some of these "Rights" and "Equality" groups. They live in an idealistic bubble far removed from reality.

If Anto is gay, then he fits the profile. Ask yourself why Anto won't come out, it's certain not because of other gay people creating this "disconnect" by coming out. It's because of people like you telling them they shouldn't.

beks101 · 15-02-2014 07:45PM

It's important, of course it's important to 'come out'.

Mental health issues aside, we live in a heteronormative world. Barbie and Ken. Adam and Eve. You don't see same-sex couples in ads for washing powder, cereal commercials, billboard commercials. The first time I saw a same-sex couple embrace on the street I was about 19 years old and even at that age, having gay friends of my own, it was still a shock.

We're taught from an early age about the "status quo", and despite the huge social advancements of recent years, we're still growing up and being taught, through our language and frame of reference, that being gay is not ok. It's the 'other' and it will define you in society.

It's very easy as a heterosexual to stand back and think, "sure I've loads of gay friends and I couldn't give a crap who they fancy" - but ask them about the experience of being gay, how they came to the realization, how they hid it strategically from the people they knew would take it the worst, how they eventually came to accept it, the process of 'coming out' and how all of that consumed their lives, their identities, their idea of who they are in the world.

Because hetero people don't face that same prospect of constant lies - dealing with the hetero questions - "do you have a boyfriend?" if you're a girl, "any men?" Having to choose to either lie about who you are EVERY DAY, or having to define yourself as "different" time and time again, in all kinds of mundane every day scenarios and conversations.

One of my best friends came out to her closest friends a few years ago and has staunchly said she will never tell her family or seek out a partner in life. She basically won't accept differentiating herself to her family, being "the gay one", killing their dreams for her, "letting people down". She's contemplated suicide over this because she grew up a country which, while progressive on this subject, didn't give her any alternative ideas about what a good and proper adult is supposed to look like; what the "perfect life" is.

THAT'S why it's important. Because being gay is NOT perverse, or kinky, or fcuked up, or immoral, or a 'fashion fad' as my own mother seems to think, or "unusual"....it's simply a sexual preference that differs to one which we're all raised to believe is the only way to be.

Frank Lee Midere · 15-02-2014 08:11PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

Yes. That's exactly the point of this argument, well done. In order for her actions to have an affect they must bring about the end of Islam. That's reasonable.

It's not for you to decide whether it will have an effect in the West or otherwise. I'm pretty confident it will help people feeling isolated due to their orientation who may gain some solace from her speech. And if not, no harm, no foul.

Why is it not up to me to decide? Or debate. I made a point - this won't affect homophobia outside the West in response to a comment made about how many people across the world were being victimised for their sexuality. And of course it won't.

Look if pseuds were that concerned about homophobia the demand would be for sanctions against Russia and the Middle East,as there were against South Africa and there are against Israel. But that would come at an economic cost. So it won't happen. Instead we get self congratulatory nonsense about how a rich Hollywood type is going to raise awareness. Of course she won't change anything except to confirm to people who like left field independent productions like Juno that homophobia is bad, mKay. But who amongst the kinda people who like Juno ever taught otherwise?

Czarcasm · 15-02-2014 08:12PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

What on earth are you on about? Are you genuinely denying one person can inspire another person? There's a reason why the word inspiration exists you know?

Are you being purposely obtuse or do you just make it up as you go along? You maintained that Page's comments were aimed at encouraging other celebrities to announce that they too were LGBT, I'm just pointing out the fact that others have maintained her comments were aimed at her peers of her generation. The conference where she made her speech was an LGBT Youth conference, not the Academy Awards.

No where have I said otherwise.

I'm not going to descend down the semantic rabbit hole with you but the general theme of your posts is that more people should be encouraged to come out.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Apparently you have an issue with gay rights advocacy groups only advocating for gay rights.

If you read my posts you'd understand what I was talking about. It's there in plain English, black and white. I have an issue with all minority groups because they advocate tolerance and understanding, etc, yet fail to realise that everybody, no matter who they are, can be classed as part of either a minority OR a majority, depending on how they are dissected and segregated. Minority group advocates WANT to see themselves as separate from the majority rather than accept they're really not that different at all!

Nothing's being clouded, I haven't been oppressed or persecuted against, I'm not gay. It's interesting that you assume I am.

What's even more interesting is that you assumed I assumed you were gay just because I said you were letting your persecution complex cloud your judgement. I was actually referring to the fact that you are in a minority that advocates for LGBT rights, yet you used an archaic and insulting term to refer to my opinion as ill informed. That's not really all that interesting though as I did mention already how I'm well used to LGBT Rights advocates use the term to refer to anyone who disagrees with their opinion, and they fail to see any hint of irony whatsoever.

If Anto is gay, then he fits the profile. Ask yourself why Anto won't come out, it's certain not because of other gay people creating this "disconnect" by coming out. It's because of people like you telling them they shouldn't.

I never said anybody shouldn't come out. I maintained all along that the whole "coming out" ideology puts enormous pressure on people who would rather not be defined by their sexuality by making a point of it. The disconnect I refer to is Rights advocates who are only interested in using one aspect of Anto's person to further their own agenda without giving due regard to Anto as a whole person.

Anto isn't "coming out", because he sees being gay as a negative aspect of his person, but the pressure created by advocacy groups to "come out" focusses his mind on the fact that being gay is something to feel negative about because he is made to feel like being gay separates him from his peers. I'm of the opinion that nobody should have to "come out" if they don't want to, and they don't need to make an issue of their sexuality. Life is tough enough for people without them feeling that they should focus on their differences rather than their commonalities.

Am I just ignorant?

Comments